Tourney Surrendering chips during a Bounty Tournament... (4 Viewers)

[TudiscoKid]

Hi guys!

I host poker games and we do a Bounty Tournament once a month. Each player pays for their buy-in AND their bounty.
I have this one rule here, what do you think about it?

A player surrendered after the end of the first break, which means that no more buy-ins were possible, cashed in the Bounty, and left.
Do you think this is a good rule? Should it work otherwise? Wanna hear your thoughts on this!

Cheers.

 

[BGinGA]

Imo -- if you lose your stack, you lose your bounty chip. Makes no difference if you voluntarily give it away (or give it back, aka surrender).

That bounty chip was previously in the hunt for other bounties, and should not be allowed to have just "played for free" if the player decides to leave.

The surrendered bounty chip value should be added to the prize pool.

 

[dpeks13]

agreed, if you surrender, you're taking away the bounty from other people. Full surrender, no cashing in

 

[w00zie]

The whole „surrender your stack“ thing does not work for a bounty tourney imo.

And surrendering your short stack in order to cash out your bounty and minimize losses sounds odd. Or why would someone do that?

 

[Poker Zombie]

It's difficult to say how this should be handled, as my rules are worded to prevent such a situation.

• A player may surrender their remaining stack to rebuy. Thus you cannot surrender your chips after the rebuy period
• If a player leaves the table their stack remains in play. They get cards and are folded. Their blinds (and antes if applicable) are still paid. The bounty chip will be added to the pot when the blinds put the absent player all-in
• Bounties are only paid when the player is eliminated. A player that is knocked out and rebuys is not yet eliminated.

That third bullet point may not be loved by everybody. If you wanted a bounty for every knockout, I would probably rule that the surrendered player knocked himself out and basically collectes his own bounty. That said, I would not be opposed to @BGinGA's method where the bounty is not collected, and the bounty money is added to the prize pool.

 

[JustinInMN]

A player surrendered after the end of the first break, which means that no more buy-ins were possible, cashed in the Bounty, and left.
Do you think this is a good rule? Should it work otherwise? Wanna hear your thoughts on this!

I am not a fan of the rule at all. In my rules the surrender option is only available to those that are re-entering. No one should get cash for walking away.

Imo -- if you lose your stack, you lose your bounty chip. Makes no difference if you voluntarily give it away (or give it back, aka surrender).

That bounty chip was previously in the hunt for other bounties, and should not be allowed to have just "played for free" if the player decides to leave.

agreed, if you surrender, you're taking away the bounty from other people. Full surrender, no cashing in

I could argue the other way. A "surrendered" bounty is not won by any player either. So my rule (and it's only come up once) is that a player surrendering their stack buys a full stack for the amount excluding the bounty. (So if it's a $100 tournament with $80 to the tournament pool and $20 to the bounty pool, the surrender is for $80.)

But if you think this is unfair, @BGinGA 's solution of converting the bounty to the prize pool makes sense. I might consider this change.

The surrendered bounty chip value should be added to the prize pool.

A third possibility is a surrendering player buys the additional bounty chip, keeps his original, but now has to pay two bounty chips upon elimination. The advantage of this approach is that bounty funds remain bounty funds, but the player gets the benefit of having kept both paid chips in the event he wins first place.

A fourth possibility would be to put the surrendered bounty chip in the next pot at the table where the player surrendered. That way everyone that was that player's table at least has a chance at it (including the surrendering player.)

But bottom line, being able to leave a tournament and cash out a bounty chip is just a bad rule.

 

[Poker Zombie]

A third possibility is a surrendering player buys the additional bounty chip, keeps his original, but now has to pay two bounty chips upon elimination. The advantage of this approach is that bounty funds remain bounty funds, but the player gets the benefit of having kept both paid chips in the event he wins first place.

The only issue I have with this is that you are reliant upon memory as to who surrendered and owes 2 bounties. much more difficult if the surrendered player made it down to the final few players 4 hours after the surrender/rebuy, and everyone that saw them surrender has been eliminated and gone home.

 

[dpeks13]

I may have misread the original statement when he said he cashed the bounty and left. I thought he was saying that he didn't rebuy.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

-1 for Surrendering rule

 

[TudiscoKid]

I may have misread the original statement when he said he cashed the bounty and left. I thought he was saying that he didn't rebuy.

Yes, it was after the rebuy period so no rebuy could have been done.

 

[JustinInMN]

The only issue I have with this is that you are reliant upon memory as to who surrendered and owes 2 bounties. much more difficult if the surrendered player made it down to the final few players 4 hours after the surrender/rebuy, and everyone that saw them surrender has been eliminated and gone home.

For sure. I have in mind you put some sort of marker in this player's stack, or bind two bounty chips together with a rubberband. The bands can be removed when the chips are won by another player.

 

[dpeks13]

yeah I stand by my previous statement that he shouldn't get anything back.

 

[brewdawg]

When I used to run bounty tournaments, we treated rebuys during the first hour as basically a new player. If you got knocked out you surrendered your bounty chip. If you rebought you got a new starting stack and a new bounty chip. But we did not allow surrendering chips.

I do agree that if you surrender your chips, something needs to be done with the bounty, that does not benefit the surrendering player.

 

[Poker Zombie]

-1 for Surrendering rule

Personally, I surrender rules in tournaments.

• Lose the last hand before the rebuy period ends and you find that you have only 1 chip and no recourse. Surrender the chip and get a new stack.
• The surrender prevents 2 or 3 short stacks/half-stacks from jamming with air with 1 minute left in the rebuy period in the hope they are felted and can rebuy. This gives too many chips to one player in what is essentially a flip, not poker.
• Couples frequently talk on breaks. An example: Spouse A says to Spouse B "How are you doing, I'm down to about 12 big blinds." Spouse B replies "I'm doing well, double starting stack". Spouse A then finds host and says "I'd like to get a new stack. It looks like Spouse B will be playing a while" - This is why I like surrender/rebuy periods to last through the end of a break level.

 

[doublebooyah85]

You can also not pass out the bounty chips until rebuy period is over to avoid this problem, if they get knocked out prior, money still has been collected for bounty pool.

Essentially this is how the mystery bounties work. Bounties don’t even start until ur ITM.

 

[upNdown]

I don't care for rebuys OR bounties and I especially don't like them together.

But if I were to do it, I'd make it a re-entry, not a rebuy. So when you lose your stack, you lose your bounty. Buy a new stack, get a new bounty. And as much as I love the "screw you guys I'm going home and taking my bounty with me" attitude, I'd make a rule against it.

 

[ngmcs8203]

When I used to run bounty tournaments, we treated rebuys during the first hour as basically a new player. If you got knocked out you surrendered your bounty chip. If you rebought you got a new starting stack and a new bounty chip. But we did not allow surrendering chips.

I do agree that if you surrender your chips, something needs to be done with the bounty, that does not benefit the surrendering player.

I like adding the surrendered bounties to the prize pool. The person who re-buys gets a new bounty.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yes, it was after the rebuy period so no rebuy could have been done.

Surrenders should be disallowed at the same point rebuys are disallowed. Surrender should be a one-time option right before the point rebuys are disallowed. One that point passes the tournament becomes a traditional "freezeout."

 

[doublebooyah85]

Surrenders should be disallowed at the same point rebuys are disallowed. Surrender should be a one-time option right before the point rebuys are disallowed. One that point passes the tournament becomes a traditional "freezeout."

This is the way. Bounties start once the freeze out has begun.

 

[dpeks13]

This is the way. Bounties start once the freeze out has begun.

 

[ekricket]

Switch your bounty to high hand for the evening. Fixes all these dumb problems, but still warps the action during hands which is what you seem to desire.

Get rid of the surrender. Make your players start thinking ahead a little, like the start of the last level before break, not the last hand before break. I dont know your players so I don’t know if they are capable of such planning. Some of ours are not, so it’s not an insult it’s just how it is. But I don’t worry about them because they don’t know or care anything about getting better at poker. It’s just another lottery ticket to them. I’m not going to cater my POKER game to a bunch of LOTTERY players.

Sounds harsh but it’s needed, otherwise we are going to get more threads from you on “how to get players on time” or “how do I get players” or some other social etiquette stuff that seems to rely on advice from older players to navigate.

There is another way to handle rebuys, and it could just incorporate the original bounty. We sell the rebuy up front, but it’s not active unless you get felted (it’s one or two 5000 chips depending on tourney - they are the only 5000 on the table at that point in the tournament so it’s easy to keep track of it when it’s inactive.)
If you haven’t had to use it it becomes an add on at the first break. Saves the host a ton of headaches.

 

[TudiscoKid]

Switch your bounty to high hand for the evening. Fixes all these dumb problems, but still warps the action during hands which is what you seem to desire.

Get rid of the surrender. Make your players start thinking ahead a little, like the start of the last level before break, not the last hand before break. I dont know your players so I don’t know if they are capable of such planning. Some of ours are not, so it’s not an insult it’s just how it is. But I don’t worry about them because they don’t know or care anything about getting better at poker. It’s just another lottery ticket to them. I’m not going to cater my POKER game to a bunch of LOTTERY players.

Sounds harsh but it’s needed, otherwise we are going to get more threads from you on “how to get players on time” or “how do I get players” or some other social etiquette stuff that seems to rely on advice from older players to navigate.

There is another way to handle rebuys, and it could just incorporate the original bounty. We sell the rebuy up front, but it’s not active unless you get felted (it’s one or two 5000 chips depending on tourney - they are the only 5000 on the table at that point in the tournament so it’s easy to keep track of it when it’s inactive.)
If you haven’t had to use it it becomes an add on at the first break. Saves the host a ton of headaches.

I didn't understand much about what you said, do you suggest that bounties are won not by eliminating another player but more by winning with the best hand during X level?

I already implemented a Best Hand bonus during the first 4 levels, which is 5% of the prize pool.

 

[Moxie Mike]

We allow players to surrender their stack at the end of the rebuy period:

A player may surrender their stack and rebuy at the end of level 4 but must also surrender their bounty and purchase another one. Their bounty will be awarded to the winner of the next hand played after the rebuying player receives their chips.

It never occurred to me that people would try to surrender and keep their bounty. That just seems odd. I wouldn't allow it if it ever came up. If someone wants to quit and leave they can get up and be blinded off, and their bounty would be awarded to whomever eliminated them from the tournament.

 

[Budha]

This is the way. Bounties start once the freeze out has begun.

 

[TudiscoKid]

We allow players to surrender their stack at the end of the rebuy period:


It never occurred to me that people would try to surrender and keep their bounty. That just seems odd. I wouldn't allow it if it ever came up. If someone wants to quit and leave they can get up and be blinded off, and their bounty would be awarded to whomever eliminated them from the tournament.

I hear about people disagreeing with the fact that someone can surrender and cash out the Bounty, but isn't the point of surrendering to keep the Bounty when rebuying?

I've made it in my rules that you can surrender and rebuy a new stack, AND you get to keep the Bounty so you don't have to buy it again.
Giving it away to the winner of next hand seems odd to me, like too easy, or it could just incentivize players to do stupid all ins preflop to get the bounty.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I hear about people disagreeing with the fact that someone can surrender and cash out the Bounty, but isn't the point of surrendering to keep the Bounty when rebuying?

I've made it in my rules that you can surrender and rebuy a new stack, AND you get to keep the Bounty so you don't have to buy it again.
Giving it away to the winner of next hand seems odd to me, like too easy, or it could just incentivize players to do stupid all ins preflop to get the bounty.

No the point of surrendering is to rebuy and get a fresh stack after the rebuy period ends. So instead of nursing a short stack, they have the option of rebuying even though they're not felted.

 

[ngmcs8203]

No the point of surrendering is to rebuy and get a fresh stack after the rebuy period ends. So instead of nursing a short stack, they have the option of rebuying even though they're not felted.

Unless you set a micro stack threshold. For instance you can allow any player under 5% to surrender their chips to re-buy a full stack through the first break. So whether you’re busted or short stacked you can start anew.

 

[Budha]

This is poppycock, there’s no surrendering your stack - lol.

It’s all part of the tourney strategy and stack management.

- if you lose your stack, you lose your bounty
- no surrendering chips,
- If low stacked, it forces you to go all in
- people will call b/c they want the bounty
- All rebuy stacks are 80% of initial stack

We found this worked really well to balance loose/aggressive buy-in period play while punishing just bad playing. It minimized the all-in luck fest b/c you lose your bounty and you only get 80% stack for rebuys.

It also eliminates being able to gain an advantage of starting the freeze-out with a full stack vs players that are mid/low stacked.

It forces some degree of strategy and stack management.

 

[TudiscoKid]

Like in my example, the player had 0.7 blinds, should going all in the thing to do? I mean it's a ridiculously easy Bounty, I'm not talking about 5 or 10 blinds which can still represent something.

 

[ekricket]

Switch your bounty to high hand for the evening.

I didn't understand much about what you said, do you suggest that bounties are won not by eliminating another player but more by winning with the best hand during X level?

I don’t think I can say it any plainer but I will try.

1. Stop playing for bounty’s. No tournament player cares about that.
2. Start paying the bonus for the highest hand that is played to showdown FOR THE ENTIRE EVENING. Kinda like what I said in the first sentence.
3. You can easily track this with a high hand button.

I dint think I can ever explain the rest to you I really regret even replying here as you guys are really doing something else besides playing tournament poker. You can call it that but it’s more about circus stuff under the guise of a “poker” game. If the current circus gets in the way of the game…. well you have to learn to live with what you can’t rise above.