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Suspicious about Modiano Platinum (2 Viewers)

K

Kenotorus

Sitting Out
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Hi all,
I've recently purchased a single deck of Modiano Platinum. In the greenish blue box we have available here in Europe selling for anywhere between 4-10 euros.

PXL_20250108_181455415.jpg
PXL_20250108_181531700.jpg


I'm very much doubting these are actually cellulose acetate. Upon opening the wrapper the cards had the unmistakable smell of PVC.
Upon investigating I noticed all information Modiano puts out about these newly produced Platinums is dubious at least.
While they do talk about the benefits of cellulose acetate on their website, nowhere do they state that the cards are made of actual cellulose acetate.

Now I'm not an expert in plastics (I'm sure someone here will be able to chime in) but as far as I know, there's also a thing called polyvinyl chloride acetate abbreviated to - you guessed it - PVCA. Could the snakes at Modiano be making these cards out of PVCA just to be able to call them "100% acetate", deliberately omitting the PVC part?

Also... I believe Italian law require manufacturers to disclose the materials of a product for recycling purposes. The recycling label Modiano provided states the material of the cards as being "pvc" (Cat. 3). Cellulose acetate (as wel as all other bioplastics) would be considered "Other" (Cat. 7)

PXL_20250108_181443904.jpg


Also, I don't really see, smell or feel much difference with my Modiano Poker deck. If anything, the Poker one is the one feeling more premium and cellulose acetate like.

PXL_20250108_181647004.jpg


What's going on here?!
Someone notice the same thing? Does anyone maybe have an old and a new deck of Platinums, to compare?
 
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allforcharity said:
Just say 'no' to Modianos. Plenty of other options that are less dubious from any angle. I would (gasp) even buy Faded Spade ahead of Modianos.
Click to expand...
True that.
To be honest, I bought them out of curiosity, as I'm on a quest to compare as many brands and types of plastic cards as I can.
But for sure, many other brands I'd rather give my money to.
Just picked up some Trefl cards. Are they a pleasant surprise! Cheapest deck I own, but in my top 3 favorites easily.
 
Kenotorus said:
Hi all,
I've recently purchased a single deck of Modiano Platinum. In the greenish blue box we have available here in Europe selling for anywhere between 4-10 euros.

View attachment 1444003 View attachment 1444004

I'm very much doubting these are actually cellulose acetate. Upon opening the wrapper the cards had the unmistakable smell of PVC.
Upon investigating I noticed all information Modiano puts out about these newly produced Platinums is dubious at least.
While they do talk about the benefits of cellulose acetate on their website, nowhere do they state that the cards are made of actual cellulose acetate.

Now I'm not an expert in plastics (I'm sure someone here will be able to chime in) but as far as I know, there's also a thing called polyvinyl chloride acetate abbreviated to - you guessed it - PVCA. Could the snakes at Modiano be making these cards out of PVCA just to be able to call them "100% acetate", deliberately omitting the PVC part?

Also... I believe Italian law require manufacturers to disclose the materials of a product for recycling purposes. The recycling label Modiano provided states the material of the cards as being "pvc" (Cat. 3). Cellulose acetate (as wel as all other bioplastics) would be considered "Other" (Cat. 7)

View attachment 1444002

Also, I don't really see, smell or feel much difference with my Modiano Poker deck. If anything, the Poker one is the one feeling more premium and cellulose acetate like.

View attachment 1444005

What's going on here?!
Someone notice the same thing? Does anyone maybe have an old and a new deck of Platinums, to compare?
Click to expand...

Being a big fan of Platinums, your findings are disturbing. Seeing and smelling may not be conclusive but you should be able to discern a difference when you shuffle and handle the 2 decks. I would have thought you couldn't get away with something like that in the EU.

I have both the regular Texas Holdem decks and Platinums (old packaging) and the difference is distinct (not Night and Day, but definitely discernable).

Don't suppose youve tried reaching out to them by email or social media?
 
Phyffe said:
Being a big fan of Platinums, your findings are disturbing. Seeing and smelling may not be conclusive but you should be able to discern a difference when you shuffle and handle the 2 decks. I would have thought you couldn't get away with something like that in the EU.

I have both the regular Texas Holdem decks and Platinums (old packaging) and the difference is distinct (not Night and Day, but definitely discernable).

Don't suppose youve tried reaching out to them by email or social media?
Click to expand...
I can only compare to the Modiano Poker (same as Texas Poker, but 4 pips) as far as other Modiano's go. In shuffling and dealing, I woud say the two are pretty similar, with the Pokers even handling smoother than the Platinums. I do have to add that the Pokers are well broken in though and have seen some significant play. So maybe that's not the fairest of comparisons.

As far as comparing them to (other?) cellulose acetate, I only have a deck of Pre-USPC KEM's, and they are definitely very different from those in handling.

Would love to hear some more experienced members than me chime in on this.
Are the new Platinums available where you live? I've heard in the US there's only old stock being sold, not sure if that's still true and if the same applies to the rest of the world.

You're right about it being a good idea to reach out to Modiano. I guess that didn't immediately cross my mind, since I'm not really expecting much of it. But anyway, I just sent them an email inquiring about exactly which type of acetate we're talking about here. Will post an update if/when I hear back from them.
 
Kenotorus said:
I can only compare to the Modiano Poker (same as Texas Poker, but 4 pips) as far as other Modiano's go. In shuffling and dealing, I woud say the two are pretty similar, with the Pokers even handling smoother than the Platinums. I do have to add that the Pokers are well broken in though and have seen some significant play. So maybe that's not the fairest of comparisons.

As far as comparing them to (other?) cellulose acetate, I only have a deck of Pre-USPC KEM's, and they are definitely very different from those in handling.

Would love to hear some more experienced members than me chime in on this.
Are the new Platinums available where you live? I've heard in the US there's only old stock being sold, not sure if that's still true and if the same applies to the rest of the world.

You're right about it being a good idea to reach out to Modiano. I guess that didn't immediately cross my mind, since I'm not really expecting much of it. But anyway, I just sent them an email inquiring about exactly which type of acetate we're talking about here. Will post an update if/when I hear back from them.
Click to expand...

I see your point about how your other Modianos are already worn-in, so to speak. I guess that comparing a brand new deck of Platinums to a well worn-in deck of Modiano PVCs isn't far-fetched, when you put it that way.

I wish you had access to an equally brand new deck of standard Modianos so the comparison will be apples-to-apples (well, at least as to wear).

I still have a few old packaging Platinums that I've been hoarding. trust me, you can tell the difference in texture and feel from a new deck of regular Modianos.

As to comparing them to KEMs, I would say they are different in feel as well. The KEMs have always felt more..... Buttery, maybe? Supple? The KEM formulation is apparently much older than the Modianos so I guess the limitations of the formulation are built into it as well.
 
I reordered a few setups for €15 each.
They‘re just great cards when flat!
 
These are the best cards I’ve ever had.
However, I must disappoint you a little—it’s most likely some sort of trick aimed at environmentalists. Cellulose acetate is an amorphous mass, and plasticizers are added to it for card production, possibly based on PVC. Or perhaps they write it this way intentionally to avoid dealing with waste separation and additional recycling requirements.
For example, even KEM cards don’t provide any information about being made of cellulose acetate, and no one seems to care. Their website misleadingly states that they are simply "100% plastic".
Are they truly 100% acetate? It’s hard to say, but I believe they are.
There is one indirect yet entirely obvious confirmation of this: PVC cards are always flat, while acetate cards warp! This wouldn’t happen if they were made of a single material.
Moreover, in my experiments to straighten cards, two PVC cards that I used as spacers remained unchanged, unlike the rest of the deck.
So, you’re not entirely correct when comparing a new deck with a worn-out one.
 
@Kenotorus
A small update. I contacted the company and received a response that they use "PVC acetate for Modiano Platinum".
For those who do not understand the chemistry of these substances, I will explain: they mix cellulose acetate and (as a plasticizer) add PVC. That is why it is written on the boxes that it is PVC (since it is a non-biodegradable product and they mention it).
But, you need to understand that neither KEM, nor Modiano, nor Angel (they do not mention cellulose acetate anywhere. This seems to me to be a myth) do not produce their cards and pure 100% cellulose acetate. They simply could not be used for their intended purpose. They all add cellulose acetate + plasticizers and other materials in various proportions.


Just to be fair, let's always write that KEM carp also do not contain 100% Acetate cellulose. (It is transparent and quite fragile by itself.)
To me, this sounds like "suspicion about Paulson/CPC /BCC/TRK chips is that they are not made of 100% clay."
 
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What kind of cellulose acetate in what quantity, who knows - but they feel and behave different than any other standart 100% PVC cards.

Hard to compare with KEM material.
I don‘t know the Angel acetate, if they‘re more like KEM or Modiano?
 
maxim_666666 said:
To summarize briefly, these are still more acetate cards than PVC cards.
Click to expand...
Thanks very much for your posts. That makes it clearer. So PVC is added as a necessary stiffener or something?

Although at the end of the day, I care about how a deck feels much more than its specific composition. I guess what I'm getting is that we shouldn't put too much stock in the words manufacturers use and rely more on the reviews and insight we get from our own community.
 
SwissChip said:
What kind of cellulose acetate in what quantity, who knows - but they feel and behave different than any other standart 100% PVC cards.

Hard to compare with KEM material.
I don‘t know the Angel acetate, if they‘re more like KEM or Modiano?
Click to expand...
From memory, more like KEM, especially in terms of texture.
 
@maxim_666666 Thanks for such an elaborate answer! Super interesting.

Also, you must have the hotline to Italy as I'm still waiting to hear back from them. They must be wondering why everyone suddenly seems this interested in the makeup of their products :)

Super interesting to have it confirmed that it's PVC acetate though, as I'm sure many buyers would be surprised to see the term PVC pop up for their favorite "cellulose acetate" cards. Seems like manufacturers are glad to lean into the myths surrounding these materials.

Seems like you know a thing or two about plastics, and I'm sorry for dragging you down the rabbit hole, but... Would it be right to state that these types of cards could technically even very well be made with just PVC acetate (vinyl chloride + vinyl acid) and added plasticizers? Without the need for cellulose at all?
As in: acetate, definitely. Cellulose, not necessarily.

I guess it all boils down to what @Phyffe says: It's ultimately about how we like the cards, not about their exact composition. Although it would be nice if there wasn't this much misleading marketing out there.
 
SwissChip said:
What kind of cellulose acetate in what quantity, who knows - but they feel and behave different than any other standart 100% PVC cards.

Hard to compare with KEM material.
I don‘t know the Angel acetate, if they‘re more like KEM or Modiano?
Click to expand...
Angel acetate is definitely more Kem like in handling but I have yet to witness any warping.
 
My issue with the Modiano Platinums is that the ink starts to fad after only 5 or 6 uses. Other than that they are very good cards. But, not worth it to me because of the ink fading.
 
DoubleEagle said:
My issue with the Modiano Platinums is that the ink starts to fad after only 5 or 6 uses. Other than that they are very good cards. But, not worth it to me because of the ink fading.
Click to expand...
Don't KEM get damaged during the game. If Modiano Platinum has the right price, then they are hard to beat compared to KEM's price. Also, I am surprised by KEM's no-return policy, and instead they offer you $20 to buy insurance to replace 5 cards.. This is some kind of joke.
 
Kenotorus said:
@maxim_666666 Would it be right to state that these types of cards could technically even very well be made with just PVC acetate (vinyl chloride + vinyl acid) and added plasticizers? Without the need for cellulose at all?
As in: acetate, definitely. Cellulose, not necessarily.
Click to expand...

No, polyvinyl chloride acetate (PVC acetate) does not exist because it is chemically impossible.

Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) is a polymer made from the monomer vinyl chloride (CH₂=CHCl).
Polyvinyl acetate (PVA) is a polymer made from the monomer vinyl acetate (CH₂=CHOCOCH₃).

These two polymers have completely different chemical structures and properties. They cannot combine into a single polymer called "polyvinyl chloride acetate." However, there are blends or composites where PVC and PVA are used together, but this is a physical mixture, not a chemical compound.

PVA (Polyvinyl Acetate) is a material we know as glue, often used for wood, paper, and other materials.
ev7058-new.jpg

As for PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride), it is used as a plastic and can be a component of a mixture containing cellulose acetate.

Cellulose acetate is a biopolymer derived from cellulose, often added to PVC mixtures to improve properties such as flexibility, transparency, and mechanical strength. As a result, such a mixture can contain more cellulose acetate than PVC itself.

The primary substance in the mixture determines its properties, even if the polymer matrix is PVC.

Cellulose acetate in its pure form is transparent and brittle, and it cannot be used on its own for playing cards.

Therefore, it can reasonably be stated (as far as possible without performing a chemical analysis) that these are "acetate cards."
 

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