Tips on being a player dealer (2 Viewers)

[stargod05]

Hey all - have a poker table coming in with a dealer spot, but no chip holder/no drop box. Bean shaped table, felt up to edges. I will most likely be the dealer/player sitting in the dealer spot. I've dealt plenty of friendly games in the past, but not on a real oval/bean shaped table. Any suggestions tips to make it comfortable/workable?

Any special things to do in situations when I am in the hand and also dealer?

Thanks for the tips!

 

[stargod05]

Should have clarified - no tips, no rake

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Just be super clear and transparent about where your cards are and where the deck is, Ive seen new dealers become confused with the muck, burn, and hole cards all close together.

Also, lead by example, make your bets raises and folds very clear. You got this, have fun.

 

[KHarp1]

Tips? Yes, take tips as a dealer, some nights it'll be the most money you make at the table, and, be good at both, Playuh!

 

[lolfdgb]

Just be super clear and transparent about where your cards are and where the deck is, Ive seen new dealers become confused with the muck, burn, and hole cards all close together.

Also, lead by example, make your bets raises and folds very clear. You got this, have fun.

Similarly, if you have chips that you're using to make change that aren't part of your own stack, keep it in a rack or someplace physically separate.

 

[Nine_high]

Just be super clear and transparent about where your cards are and where the deck is, Ive seen new dealers become confused with the muck, burn, and hole cards all close together.

Also, lead by example, make your bets raises and folds very clear. You got this, have fun.

Good point. I always slide the burn cards under the pot to my left, and keep the muck out over the line to my right. I keep the muck a little messy so it's obvious but small and not all over the place or in the way. My hole cards stay close against the rail. I don't use a protector but it's probably not a bad idea to.

If you're worried about dealing on the new table shape, put some stacks of chips at each seat, throw on clp or something and practice pitching cards by yourself

 

[kaysirtap]

Make sure you're always using a card protector of some kind for your hand. You might not like using them, but if you're dealing and playing, I'd recommend it.

I personally always keep the muck on the left and the pot centered. Being a right-handed dealer, this means I'm always peeking with my right hand and it's not close to the muck or the stub. But I also build sidepots in the middle; I don't use the method where you put sidepots in front of players. The muck on the left side helps with that.

If you don't have a dealer's chip tray, then you should probably use an acrylic one if everyone is okay with it. There will be a lot of reaching and you don't want to accidentally knock over your stacks and splash the pot.

Never let go of the stub until the river and always keep it level and in everyone's sight. Yeah... you've got to bring chips into the pot with your stub hand while keeping it level... probably by using your pinky finger. If you must use your stub hand to block others' view of your cards when you look, again, make sure it's level and that you're basically using the back of your hand to block instead of the stub.

 

[glynn]

Some great advice so far. @kaysirtap highlights that there are reasons behind all of the procedures and ceremonies that aren't always obvious to someone who hasn't acted as a dedicated dealer, and they become extra important when you are also playing. Here are some things that I didn't think of until I started dealing:

• Tell your players that if they insist on moving the button, they should announce it loudly. I can't emphasize enough how quickly you will develop an end-of-hand routine. Unless someone tells me that the button has moved, I will advance it automatically. I am not even thinking.
  • Related to this, you will be surprised by how much you rely on a visual of the button, as well as how often that visual is peripheral. If someone is holding or spinning the button, I will lose track of where we are. Also, I have a regular who uses a card capper that looks like a button. I had to ban it.
• I have been using a chest bag in lieu of a dealer tray for quick reloads. It's worked out well. I give my players twenty seconds to laugh at it at the beginning of the night.
• Make sure you have established a chain of authority for "floor" calls, because they will happen, and you don't want to wait until the point of conflict to figure it out. It's fine if you are the ultimate decision maker, but you need to be confident and fair when an issue arises, even if you are involved. Your players have placed their trust in you to run a smooth game. Don't get caught hesitating.
• Rapping the table before burning and turning has saved me a few times. I only do it if there is a lot going on in terms of action or distractions.
• A higher chair that offers a longer reach can save your back.
  • It also helps to refer to the betting line as the "courtesy line". They'll get the point.

 

[kaysirtap]

I second the need for a higher chair. Use an office chair with a hydraulic lift or nest two chairs on top of each other if you've got ones that can do that. It's not absolutely necessary and I've dealt games without them. But you'll be thankful if you've got one.

You never mentioned what game(s) you're going to be playing. For whatever reason I assumed it was Texas Hold 'Em, but if you're thinking about anything Pot Limit, with perhaps a high-low split, you're going to have a lot on your plate if you're trying to play also. Lol

 

[inca911]

Very clearly keep any tips you do receive separate from your personal stack. People really don’t like their tips increasing an opponent’s stack.

 

[T_Chan]

I try not to point with a finger. If it's someone's turn, I turn my palm face up towards them or at most, vertical to indicate it's their turn. It just seems more polite and welcoming than a finger. As a dealer, you'll get plenty of fingers back at you when you counterfeit someone's hand or deal a bad beat.

Make sure you have a cut card. It's common to use your left hand that'd holding the stub to rake in chips from the left side and the stub can get turned up a little when scooping so the cut card is vital.

Having a small tray in front of you is great for making change. If your rack starts to get a little low, you can refill it by making change from the pot when there's a lull in the action. You don't need a big tray, a small 100 chip rack is enough. If you can get a low profile rack, even better since it won't interfere with your hands.

 

[Nine_high]

I'll also second the higher chair. I started using my office chair. Extra nice since it swivels and I keep the bank/chips in a drawer behind me.

Another thing about dealing is being a solid pot manager. Correct mistakes early and often, they should hopefully go away quickly . I don't verbally scold people unless they keep doing something despite me correcting it, or it's especially egregious. For example if someone throws their bet into the pot, I just pull it out and set it in front of them where it belongs. After a few times I might say something. The hardest bad habit for me to break is when someone takes their neighbors 50c blind to make a call with a $1

One chip rule, wait for action to close before giving change out then scooping the bets into the pot. For NL games I keep it tight but messy, and for PL games I'll stack it so it's easy to count visually.

 

[Bacon Dad]

Similarly, if you have chips that you're using to make change that aren't part of your own stack, keep it in a rack or someplace physically separate.

^ ^ ^ This especially!!!

I am a player/dealer and it is very easy to second guess if the chips you just took out of the bank tray and placed on the table in front of you to count were part of your own stack or from the bank.

I strongly urge you to handle rebuys on a small table placed directly behind you. The only time the rebuy chips hit the table felt is after they are twice-counted and handed to the buyer who places them on the table to check the count.

 

[Bacon Dad]

One chip rule, wait for action to close before giving change out then scooping the bets into the pot

What’s the biggest reason to do this? Can you give an example?
Thanks.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

What’s the biggest reason to do this? Can you give an example?
Thanks.

Someone reraises, tough to remember who put out what and whos got change. Consistency cuts that uncertainty out of the equation.

 

[MrCatPants]

Bank bag worn on a lanyard for buyins; dealer tray or drawer for chips, ideally separated into common buy-in/re-buy amounts.

If people can buy up to a fraction of the big stack, when you are rebuying someone, pause the action and ask if anyone else wants to top up. Limits game pauses and gets it all done at once.

For split pot games/bomb pots/etc. really try to engineer it so you have a helpful 'junior' table captain who sits across from you and can split pots and gather much while you may be working on something else. Even deal the occasional hand.

Echo using a card protector. People fold to you personally all the time.

And echo keeping muck and burns set in regular spots so they never get confused with the stub or your hand.

 

[natumes]

Having some kind of tray or rack helps a lot. At first I thought I didn't want the dealer tray that was built into my table. Now it's indispensable as the dedicated dealer and bank. It serves as a natural point for the muck, right under your hands while working.

My suggestion is to keep your stack and cards off to a side so that you don't knock your stack over into a pot, or muck your hand accidentally. I keep my cards right behind the betting line capped, usually in front of my chips. My stack is on top of what used to be a chip rake. Be very clear with your players about where your cards will be when they are live so there's no question of skipping your action etc.

Get used to holding onto the stub for long periods of time, and pulling in bets with the side of your hand. Always set the deck down before peeking your cards, unless you're only using one hand and don't mind players on both sides of you seeing your cards...

Don't make change until all betting is complete. I also insist that only I make change. Same goes for moving the dealer button. A taller chair definitely helps. I always tell players to "commit to your bets" meaning get them well past the line on the corners please.

The closer you can run your table to how a casino would run it, the smoother things will go all around.

 

[Nine_high]

What’s the biggest reason to do this? Can you give an example?
Thanks.

It helps keep the pot right and all players right. If there's extra money on a player's bet when action closes, the change is due to that player. When people start taking their own change from other players bets, now we have to figure out who is owed what and it can't be done visually. You have to reconstruct things that happened like big blind took the small blind as change so he is owed nothing even though there's too much on his bet, and small blind is good even though his bet is light.

It gets worse when people are raising and reraising. If you call a $16 bet with a $25 and pull $9 off a couple other live bets, then I reraise to $50, one of those other players folds and another calls and you want to call, the situation is completely fucked. Who owes what? We have to go back and remember that your $25 is only worth $16, so you'll be calling my raise by putting another $34 out there making your bet appear to be $59. the guy on your left who folded earlier has $1 out there that's worth $6, and the guy to his left who folded to my raise has $12 out there that's worth $16 assuming he didn't do something similar earlier. It's surprisingly difficult to sort this out.

If everyone's overages belong only to them, you usually just have to know who is going to the flop to get it right. What's the final bet, and if anyone has too much you fix it by giving them change. Notice in this example it's very easy to see who has $50 out there and who has more. All the change making done during the middle wouldn't even have helped since calling ultimately ended up having a bet of $50. You would only need to know which bet pushed out which player in case they fold partway through to determine how much change they might need. If you called the $16 bet with a $25 (and didn't take change) but fold to my $50 bet, it's actually very easy to determine that the pot owes you $9 once the action is closed.

 

[Bacon Dad]

It helps keep the pot right and all players right. If there's extra money on a player's bet when action closes, the change is due to that player. When people start taking their own change from other players bets, now we have to figure out who is owed what and it can't be done visually. You have to reconstruct things that happened like big blind took the small blind as change so he is owed nothing even though there's too much on his bet, and small blind is good even though his bet is light.

It gets worse when people are raising and reraising. If you call a $16 bet with a $25 and pull $9 off a couple other live bets, then I reraise to $50, one of those other players folds and another calls and you want to call, the situation is completely fucked. Who owes what? We have to go back and remember that your $25 is only worth $16, so you'll be calling my raise by putting another $34 out there making your bet appear to be $59. the guy on your left who folded earlier has $1 out there that's worth $6, and the guy to his left who folded to my raise has $12 out there that's worth $16 assuming he didn't do something similar earlier. It's surprisingly difficult to sort this out.

If everyone's overages belong only to them, you usually just have to know who is going to the flop to get it right. What's the final bet, and if anyone has too much you fix it by giving them change. Notice in this example it's very easy to see who has $50 out there and who has more. All the change making done during the middle wouldn't even have helped since calling ultimately ended up having a bet of $50. You would only need to know which bet pushed out which player in case they fold partway through to determine how much change they might need. If you called the $16 bet with a $25 (and didn't take change) but fold to my $50 bet, it's actually very easy to determine that the pot owes you $9 once the action is closed.

Thanks for the response.

I understand your example. But what is the downfall in giving a player correct change from the pot immediately (not someone else’s bet) as the action moves around the table?

This makes the player “square” with the current bet as the action goes around the table. In the event that there are raises or reraises, you continue with the same method making people square along the way. In a minute or two, that money on the line is going into the pot to make and will make it whole again.

Typically after the final action, you would be doing the same thing anyway. But you would be doing it with having to remember who folded to which raise, asking them what they did, and then mathing it out hoping they weren’t wrong about where their commitments ended.

The only downside I can think of is it bucks years of tradition and breaks the rules of mixing pot money ( pot money dude) with betting money.
Are there any other downsides?

-Thanks

 

[Gunnar]

As soon as another raise is made it can be better to make sure that the bets are correct. But that really depends on the dealer, there are not often more than 1-2 raises so it is usually not a problem.

 

[glynn]

Are there any other downsides?

A few that haven't been mentioned but are also important:

• It increases unnecessary movement (and therefore distraction and confusion) during the betting round. You should strive for the opposite so that everyone can more easily track what is going on. (Buying chips from someone across the table during a hand is also a zero-sum transaction, and we can all relate to how annoying that is. Scale that annoyance to multiple instances per betting round to see the problem.)
• It reenforces the idea to your most impatient players that omg they might not get their change if you don't give it to them right away. These are the guys who ask for change immediately, or worse, try to make change on their own. This is trauma from less organized games. If instead you make it a step in the formal sequence, you actually increase their confidence that change will get to them.

Do it a few times to observe how clean it is. You pull in all the bets that don't need change, leaving the bets that do need change in front of their affected players. Then you one-by-one resolve their change. Transparency, clarity, confidence.

 

[BGinGA]

Thanks for the response.

I understand your example. But what is the downfall in giving a player correct change from the pot immediately (not someone else’s bet) as the action moves around the table?

This makes the player “square” with the current bet as the action goes around the table. In the event that there are raises or reraises, you continue with the same method making people square along the way. In a minute or two, that money on the line is going into the pot to make and will make it whole again.

Typically after the final action, you would be doing the same thing anyway. But you would be doing it with having to remember who folded to which raise, asking them what they did, and then mathing it out hoping they weren’t wrong about where their commitments ended.

The only downside I can think of is it bucks years of tradition and breaks the rules of mixing pot money ( pot money dude) with betting money.
Are there any other downsides?

-Thanks

Making players 'square' in turn (by breaking down their oversize chip from the pot and immediately giving them change) only works if the pot contains enough (correct) chips to do so. It's unlikely to contain enough chips to do it for several people, so then you end up with some players who are square and some who are not. Not to mention that subsequent action(s) by other players may actually make all of the 'squaring' action in turn totally moot and unnecessary.

Better to just keep all of the unaltered bets in front of each player until all action is complete, and then make any necessary changes, going around the table player by player as you drag the bets into the pot.

Simplicity and consistency rule.

 

[Bacon Dad]

@BGinGA & @glynn

This is the logic I was looking for. Thanks!

 

[Nine_high]

Thanks for the response.

I understand your example. But what is the downfall in giving a player correct change from the pot immediately (not someone else’s bet) as the action moves around the table?

This makes the player “square” with the current bet as the action goes around the table. In the event that there are raises or reraises, you continue with the same method making people square along the way. In a minute or two, that money on the line is going into the pot to make and will make it whole again.

Typically after the final action, you would be doing the same thing anyway. But you would be doing it with having to remember who folded to which raise, asking them what they did, and then mathing it out hoping they weren’t wrong about where their commitments ended.

The only downside I can think of is it bucks years of tradition and breaks the rules of mixing pot money ( pot money dude) with betting money.
Are there any other downsides?

-Thanks

Making players 'square' in turn (by breaking down their oversize chip from the pot and immediately giving them change) only works if the pot contains enough (correct) chips to do so. It's unlikely to contain enough chips to do it for several people, so then you end up with some players who are square and some who are not. Not to mention that subsequent action(s) by other players may actually make all of the 'squaring' action in turn totally moot and unnecessary.

This is pretty much it. More often than not all that change making is a total waste of time once someone raises. Now we're all putting those chips right back in to call again.

Big waste of time, unnecessary unclarity introduced.

Better to just keep all of the unaltered bets in front of each player until all action is complete, and then make any necessary changes, going around the table player by player as you drag the bets into the pot.

Simplicity and consistency rule.

Yep this is by far the cleanest and fastest way.

 

[Bacon Dad]

Agree. Good points gents. Thanks for the tips.

 

[maloviz]

If you must use your stub hand to block others' view of your cards when you look

Always set the deck down before peeking your cards

These are conflicting views that I don't see anyone commenting on in this thread.

When I host I nearly always act as dedicated dealer. Probably my biggest problem with it is that I find it hard to peek at my cards. My solution so far has been to carefully put the stub down, peek at my cards with both hands, then carefully pick the stub back up. It a little lengthy and cumbersome so I'd prefer to not do it, but peeking while holding the stub just feels even worse.

How do others feels about this?

 

[Bacon Dad]

These are conflicting views that I don't see anyone commenting on in this thread.

When I host I nearly always act as dedicated dealer. Probably my biggest problem with it is that I find it hard to peek at my cards. My solution so far has been to carefully put the stub down, peek at my cards with both hands, then carefully pick the stub back up. It a little lengthy and cumbersome so I'd prefer to not do it, but peeking while holding the stub just feels even worse.

How do others feels about this?

I place the deck down and peek with both hands like a normal player.

I never really thought about the process while doing it until my last game. I accidentally knocked the deck with my knuckle when I reached for the deck to pick it back up. It didn't reveal a card, but it could have. I asked and nobody said they saw anything and neither did I. Play resumed and then I started thinking about it the rest of the game. I knocked it a couple of times after that. My mind is colluding against me I think....

Either way, I was in for $50 and out for $76 - ($0.25/$0.25). Some of my players limp a lot. Bomb Pots were introduced and that helped open up the table a little.

 

[Nine_high]

These are conflicting views that I don't see anyone commenting on in this thread.

When I host I nearly always act as dedicated dealer. Probably my biggest problem with it is that I find it hard to peek at my cards. My solution so far has been to carefully put the stub down, peek at my cards with both hands, then carefully pick the stub back up. It a little lengthy and cumbersome so I'd prefer to not do it, but peeking while holding the stub just feels even worse.

How do others feels about this?

I set the stub down when I'm not using it. It goes next to the pot. I play like any other player with regard to peeking at my hand etc.

I do not hold the stub unless I am actively dealing from it. Especially if I am in the hand. If I'm not in the hand and it's moving quickly maybe I'll hold it while they check back and forth but even here I usually set it down between streets.

 

[maloviz]

but even here I usually set it down between streets.

Wow. That would drive me nuts picking it up and putting it down so much.

 

[natumes]

With a proper cut card, I've never felt like I need to be extremely cautious setting down or picking up the deck. I have multiple players that would all say something if they saw a card flash and it has never come up.