What do you do on the turn in this tournament hand? (1 Viewer)

[Anthony Martino]

$250 deepstack with 30K starting chips and 30 minute blinds.

We are at level 8 and nine-handed

Blinds 400/800 (75 ante)
Hero's stack: 50K
Villains stack: 75K

Villain is a backpack carrying reg in his 30's, seems to play TAG thus far. in EP folded to Villain who raises to 1800.

three callers until it reaches Hero in the SB with who calls. BB calls , six players to the flop:

11,475 in the pot



Hero in the SB leads for 6K, only Villian in EP calls

Pot: 23,475

Turn:

Hero checks, Villain bets 12K and covers Hero. Pot is now 35,475 and Hero has 42K remaining in his stack. What hands are you ranging Villain on here? And what does Hero do?

 

[bergs]

Jam. Only hand he can call with correctly is 88, 89 or 34.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Jam. Only hand he can call with correctly is 88, 89 or 34.

What hand(s) do you range him on at this point?

 

[upNdown]

I think it's as likely as not that villain has a couple of broadway cards - KQ maybe, but you've been playing with him for a while so you know better than me. If it were a cash gane, I'd approach things differently, but at this point in a tournament, I'm calling.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I think it's as likely as not that villain has a couple of broadway cards - KQ maybe, but you've been playing with him for a while so you know better than me. If it were a cash gane, I'd approach things differently, but at this point in a tournament, I'm calling.

So you think Villain on the flop called my half-pot bet with no pair or draw, on a wet board with three players to act behind him?

 

[upNdown]

No. I didn't read very well. I missed the part about all the callers and six to the flop. Disregard.

So, re-evaluating, I'd put him on jacks or tens or nines, if I had to guess.

 

[Anthony Martino]

No. I didn't read very well. I missed the part about all the callers and six to the flop. Disregard.

So, re-evaluating, I'd put him on jacks or tens or nines, if I had to guess.

So that being the case, after he bets 12K what do you do? Still calling? Folding? Raising/shoving?

 

[upNdown]

Probably folding and waiting for a better spot. Plenty of time, plenty of chips.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Probably folding and waiting for a better spot. Plenty of time, plenty of chips.

If you are Villain on the turn and hold 99, TT or JJ and Hero check-raise shoves, what do you do?

 

[upNdown]

If you are Villain on the turn and hold 99, TT or JJ and Hero check-raise shoves, what do you do?

Calling. I think I'm ahead and I have you covered comfortably.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Calling. I think I'm ahead and I have you covered comfortably.

But what do you do if @bergs check-shoves the turn?

 

[upNdown]

If you are Villain on the turn and hold 99, TT or JJ and Hero check-raise shoves, what do you do?

But what do you do if @bergs check-shoves the turn?

Isn't that the same thing?
I'm probably not the best for these advice threads because in live tournaments I rely more on magic than math; my reads are usually pretty good.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I don't like the donk lead on the flop to start.

I also wouldn't give up the lead of betting on the turn when that card helped us so much. I would have continued to bet the turn.

But as played I agree with @bergs to go for the check shove. We have a ton of equity vs an over pair.

Question, would you have donk bet the flop if you had flopped a set or would you go for a check raise? If he has been paying attention to your betting tendicies he may realize you only lead the flop there with a top pair type hand and realizes his over pair is ahead most of the time.

When donk betting you need to make sure you include hands from the top of your range as well.

 

[upNdown]

I don't like the donk lead on the flop to start.

I also wouldn't give up the lead of betting on the turn when that card helped us so much. I would have continued to bet the turn.

But as played I agree with @bergs to go for the check shove. We have a ton of equity vs an over pair.

Question, would you have donk bet the flop if you had flopped a set or would you go for a check raise? If he has been paying attention to your betting tendicies he may realize you only lead the flop there with a top pair type hand and realizes his over pair is ahead most of the time.

When donk betting you need to make sure you include hands from the top of your range as well.

I can't imagine why you and @bergs want to shove 60 big blinds on a draw into a guy who has you covered and who's probably ahead. Is there somewhere else you need to be?

 

[justsomedude]

What hand(s) do you range him on at this point?

Since you described him as TAG, I'm assuming he either has a set at this point, or the nut diamond draw. I can see both 66 and 77 raising 2.25x BBs pre-flop, as well as AdKd, AdQd, etc. Middle pairs over to the board, such as 88 and 99 are also options. Pocket tens also a possibility. Premium pairs would be likely be raising at least 3x BBs pre (at least that's my approach to TAGs).

With 12k needed into an almost 36k pot, and the flush and straight draws abound, I'm calling or jamming in this spot. The only way I fold is if I have a lot of experience with the villain, and can truly put him on 66 or 77.

 

[Trihonda]

I can't imagine why you and @bergs want to shove 60 big blinds on a draw into a guy who has you covered and who's probably ahead. Is there somewhere else you need to be?

Top pair, OESD and Flush draw?

Haven't done the math, but that's pretty much as god as you could expect against an overpair...

 

[upNdown]

Top pair, OESD and Flush draw?

Haven't done the math, but that's pretty much as god as you could expect against an overpair...

Yes, but nobody's forcing you to put your tournament life on the line for a draw.
Maybe I'm just nittier with my tournament stack than most people.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I can't imagine why you and @bergs want to shove 60 big blinds on a draw into a guy who has you covered and who's probably ahead. Is there somewhere else you need to be?

The fact that we have 45% equity to win the hand outright vs an overpair already and add in the fold equity shoving gives makes it a good play.

The reason I might be hesitant to do it is the donk bet. Very few people donk bet 2 pair or better in this type of spot. It usually very polarized to weak top pair or draws trying to set their own price to see the turn.

So if this guy is a good thinking player as @Anthony Martino seems to think them he may see through the play. But even if he does and figures us for exactly what hero has, does he want to risk most of his stack on a coin flip? If he thinks he is a better player he could find the fold thinking he can out play hero/table in other spots.

I prefer to be aggressive and put them to the test.

 

[upNdown]

The fact that we have 45% equity to win the hand outright vs an overpair already and add in the fold equity shoving gives makes it a good play.

I prefer to be aggressive and put them to the rest.

Fair enough, I just feel like you're not being aggressive here; you're reacting to his aggression. I mean if your turn plan was check shove all along, fair enough. But I don't think that was the plan, nor should it be, with 45% equity and SIXTY BIG BLINDS. I promise you that unless you go ungodly card dead for three hours, you'll find better spots for aggression and you'll be in hands with much better equity.

 

[Rhodeman77]

It's not about BB's. it's about how big the pot is in relationship to our stack. There is 35k in the pot and we have to call 12k before we can raise. So the pot will be 47k and our stack will be 30k, we are getting a great price on our shove.

 

[justsomedude]

So the pot will be 47k and our stack will be 30k, we are getting a great price on our shove.

So much this.

 

[MatB]

I shoved before i read the thread title.

EDIT:
not true.. i actually read "what do i do..." and then i shoved.

 

[Trihonda]

Fair enough, I just feel like you're not being aggressive here; you're reacting to his aggression. I mean if your turn plan was check shove all along, fair enough. But I don't think that was the plan, nor should it be, with 45% equity and SIXTY BIG BLINDS. I promise you that unless you go ungodly card dead for three hours, you'll find better spots for aggression and you'll be in hands with much better equity.

You're assuming the villain has an overpair. Does Seems in their range?

And by shoving, your villain has to range your shove... wha would you shove with? A set, the made straight, two pair?

I like a shove here.

 

[upNdown]

You're assuming the villain has an overpair. Does Seems in their range?

And by shoving, your villain has to range your shove... wha would you shove with? A set, the made straight, two pair?

I like a shove here.

I can't argue with you; I just play it a bit more conservative.
I'd love to play a bunch of PCFers in a real tournament. Meet-ups aren't conducive to good deep stack MTT formats. We need to arrange a super meetup for a good 12 hour tournament.

 

[MatB]

I can't argue with you; I just play it a bit more conservative.
I'd love to play a bunch of PCFers in a real tournament. Meet-ups aren't conducive to good deep stack MTT formats. We need to arrange a super meetup for a good 12 hour tournament.

Get it done Rob.

 

[upNdown]

Get it done Rob.

You change your avatar picture more often than I change my socks.

 

[Anthony Martino]

$250 deepstack with 30K starting chips and 30 minute blinds.

We are at level 8 and nine-handed

Blinds 400/800 (75 ante)
Hero's stack: 50K
Villains stack: 75K

Villain is a backpack carrying reg in his 30's, seems to play TAG thus far. in EP folded to Villain who raises to 1800.

three callers until it reaches Hero in the SB with who calls. BB calls , six players to the flop:

11,475 in the pot



Hero in the SB leads for 6K, only Villian in EP calls

Pot: 23,475

Turn:

Hero checks, Villain bets 12K and covers Hero. Pot is now 35,475 and Hero has 42K remaining in his stack. What hands are you ranging Villain on here? And what does Hero do?

Hero check-shoves all-in. Villain SNAP-calls. Flips over pocket 2's, wasn't expecting a set. Figured Villain would show up with TT+ here and possibly fold an overpair, and if he didn't I'd be playing a big pot with decent equity. I say "guess I'm going to need to hit something here" and BAM on the river to give me the winning flush. He then proceeds to whine for about 10 minutes.

 

[upNdown]

Hero check-shoves all-in. Villain SNAP-calls. Flips over pocket 2's, wasn't expecting a set. Figured Villain would show up with TT+ here and possibly fold an overpair, and if he didn't I'd be playing a big pot with decent equity. I say "guess I'm going to need to hit something here" and BAM on the river to give me the winning flush. He then proceeds to whine for about 10 minutes.

Nice. It always cracks me up when people whine about a rivered flush like it's some crazy one-outer.

 

[MatB]

You change your avatar picture more often than I change my socks.

Every 3 days? you might want to look into that..

 

[Trihonda]

Hero check-shoves all-in. Villain SNAP-calls. Flips over pocket 2's, wasn't expecting a set. Figured Villain would show up with TT+ here and possibly fold an overpair, and if he didn't I'd be playing a big pot with decent equity. I say "guess I'm going to need to hit something here" and BAM on the river to give me the winning flush. He then proceeds to whine for about 10 minutes.

Even against a SET, you have like 32% equity to win. NH