God i love these threads
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What do you do on the turn in this tournament hand? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Anthony Martino
- Start date
justsomedude
Straight Flush
I heard you never change your socks.
FDLmold
Royal Flush
We finally won a hand with Martino. Yay!
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
I think Hero asked about the wrong decisions. The flop donk bet and the check on the turn seem a lot more interesting than the last decision Hero made. Even the preflop decision is worth discussion. I have to wonder if it might not be better to fold the suited connectors preflop due in large part to the horrible position.
I have doubts about the line villain took, though nothing seemed all that crazy. Personally, I'd be more likely to fold pocket twos preflop than raise from early position. Call it fold and limp as better choices than raising. On the flop, villain is looking at a multi-way hand with a so-so board. It seems like a time to "fast play" rather than be tricky trappy though that varies greatly with the nature of the table.
I think Hero made the best decision at the end, got unlucky to run into a trapping villain but hit his 13 out draw.
Grats! -=- DrStrange
I have doubts about the line villain took, though nothing seemed all that crazy. Personally, I'd be more likely to fold pocket twos preflop than raise from early position. Call it fold and limp as better choices than raising. On the flop, villain is looking at a multi-way hand with a so-so board. It seems like a time to "fast play" rather than be tricky trappy though that varies greatly with the nature of the table.
I think Hero made the best decision at the end, got unlucky to run into a trapping villain but hit his 13 out draw.
Grats! -=- DrStrange
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
@Anthony Martino you didn't answer my question, do you ever donk bet with top 2 pair or a set?
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
With six players in the hand on a flushing and straightening board sometimes I will donk bet and sometimes I will check-raise
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
I think the lesson learned here is get it in as a 68/32 dog more often, I run best as the underdog
But that's about the worst case scenario. More often than not, you have way more equity.
bergs
Royal Flush
Yes, massively so.
bergs
Royal Flush
I would rather wash my genitals in undiluted acid.
bergs
Royal Flush
Results came too fast for me to weigh in but villain has either 88-TT for a turned OESD or a set. Based on preflop action it's unlikely he has JJ or better and based on flop action it's unlikely he has AK unless it's AKss or AKdd which is super specific.
I'm expecting to go up against a set here and either go big or go home. Tournaments aren't for the weak-willed. If you want to play it safe and min-cash go play Magic The Gathering.
I'm expecting to go up against a set here and either go big or go home. Tournaments aren't for the weak-willed. If you want to play it safe and min-cash go play Magic The Gathering.
OP
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Based on the action I was really ranging him on something like JJ. Given the board texture and my being in the blinds, I figured if he held JJ there was a good possibility he'd fold it after I check-shoved the turn. And if he called then any spade, 4, 7, 8 or 9 was going to win me the pot. Was pretty shocked to see he raised 22 from EP honestly, no way I was putting him on a set, especially when I had top pair on the board so had a blocker.
I agree, but I think we have different definitions of weak-willed. And yeah, it's nice when you get to the final table with a stupid giant stack, but I'll take my chances with the short stack too - you can't win if you don't make it to the final table.
AWenger
Full House
Agreed! The few other threads I've seen had an unfortunate pattern of 'play a hand with me where I have a big pocket pair but lose'
At this point, I might have asked him if the off-suit 4 or 9 had hit instead of the spade, would he be whining more than 10 minutes, or less?
So, after winning this pot 9-handed, what place did you finish in? How many places paid?
OP
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
There were 241 runners. I came in around 50th, top 24 paid
justsomedude
Straight Flush
You mean like this guy?
"C'mon Harris, please! You're a better player than that .... Jesus Chr*st - what the f*ck do you think I had???? I HAD A SET OF KINGS .... Harris, HOW DO YOU CALL THAT??? Why would you do that to me???? ... god almighty!"
LOLOLOLOL
justsomedude
Straight Flush
^^^^^
I think I've watched that clip 179 times... and it never gets old.
I think I've watched that clip 179 times... and it never gets old.
Jimulacrum
Full House
+1 to everyone who wanted to analyze the play at every stage instead of just the last turn bet. Debate-worthy decisions at every point.
I have to disagree with ranging Villain as 99–JJ as of the turn bet. The flop call reeks of super-strength. That's a pretty gorgeous flop for an overpair, and a (likely weak) donk bet from the SB is a great spot to raise with an overpair of any kind. It's almost a mandatory raise, really. Good value against top pair, and you defend your hand against a potential field of draws. So why no raise?
Instead, Villain flats. With three people behind. WTF. Combined with his smallish preflop raise (small pair who wants to set a low price preflop!) and the fact that the board is 2-6-7, a slowplayed set seems way too likely. Think about how strong that call would look if you were behind Villain with, say, 88 or something. Insta-fold.
Anyway, the donk bet wasn't terrible, because it lets you get a better feel for Villain's range at a much lower price than check-raising (and I'm the sort to often donk there with the set too, so I can donk with 78s there ;-) ). Checking the turn was okay if you did it because you properly read Villain as very strong, but not so much if you did it out of reflex just because you bet and got called and you're out of position—huge leak.
Now, you check and Villain bets 12K. That's a kinda shitty play on Villain's part. He should have bet bigger, especially in a tournament with a nice-sized pot on the line. But Villain is a backpack reg. He has to know it's a small bet. He has to know that check-shoving 42K/12K will look enticing to you with lots of hands. More strength indicators.
Conventional Hold'em wisdom is to always be the aggressor, but it seems like that's what he wants you to do. The play I don't think got enough credit here is flatting. If you're getting called here the vast majority of the time, shoving is not great, even if Villain's whole range is overpairs. Little to no fold equity, and you're flipping at best. Ugh.
It's 12K into a 36K pot with a draw that is 2:1 at worst, against a hand that is very probably paying off the 30K on the end if you catch. If the spade or the straight hits, shoveitty-shove-shove 100% of the time. The board is wet enough that Villain may convince himself to call on the basis that you missed a draw and are betting on the scare card, whichever one comes. If you whiff (including hitting trips or two pair), check with the intention of folding and hold on to your 30K (and very occasionally get surprised on a check-back when your hand is good against AKs or something).
Don't get tricked into bluffing a diamond river. You're expecting Villain to call, remember? This is a pure drawing call with no fold equity expected.
I have to disagree with ranging Villain as 99–JJ as of the turn bet. The flop call reeks of super-strength. That's a pretty gorgeous flop for an overpair, and a (likely weak) donk bet from the SB is a great spot to raise with an overpair of any kind. It's almost a mandatory raise, really. Good value against top pair, and you defend your hand against a potential field of draws. So why no raise?
Instead, Villain flats. With three people behind. WTF. Combined with his smallish preflop raise (small pair who wants to set a low price preflop!) and the fact that the board is 2-6-7, a slowplayed set seems way too likely. Think about how strong that call would look if you were behind Villain with, say, 88 or something. Insta-fold.
Anyway, the donk bet wasn't terrible, because it lets you get a better feel for Villain's range at a much lower price than check-raising (and I'm the sort to often donk there with the set too, so I can donk with 78s there ;-) ). Checking the turn was okay if you did it because you properly read Villain as very strong, but not so much if you did it out of reflex just because you bet and got called and you're out of position—huge leak.
Now, you check and Villain bets 12K. That's a kinda shitty play on Villain's part. He should have bet bigger, especially in a tournament with a nice-sized pot on the line. But Villain is a backpack reg. He has to know it's a small bet. He has to know that check-shoving 42K/12K will look enticing to you with lots of hands. More strength indicators.
Conventional Hold'em wisdom is to always be the aggressor, but it seems like that's what he wants you to do. The play I don't think got enough credit here is flatting. If you're getting called here the vast majority of the time, shoving is not great, even if Villain's whole range is overpairs. Little to no fold equity, and you're flipping at best. Ugh.
It's 12K into a 36K pot with a draw that is 2:1 at worst, against a hand that is very probably paying off the 30K on the end if you catch. If the spade or the straight hits, shoveitty-shove-shove 100% of the time. The board is wet enough that Villain may convince himself to call on the basis that you missed a draw and are betting on the scare card, whichever one comes. If you whiff (including hitting trips or two pair), check with the intention of folding and hold on to your 30K (and very occasionally get surprised on a check-back when your hand is good against AKs or something).
Don't get tricked into bluffing a diamond river. You're expecting Villain to call, remember? This is a pure drawing call with no fold equity expected.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
I was thinking the same thing. 15 outs to the flush or straight = about a 2:1 dog and raise is 42k into 47k pot that balloons to 133k with a shove and call.
Pokerstove says 53.%% equity PF, 10.1% equity on the flop and 31.8% equity on that beautiful turn.
9-handed, you gotta win some flips.
The rest of us would prefer you did that, too. And no wimping out with lemon juice, either.
I assumed he meant 9-handed at that table. I doubt a 30k deep stack is down to 9 players at the 400/800 level.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Yeah, agreed. I think later he said he finished 50th and missed the money.
Yup:
Great stuff, Jim. Pretty much my thoughts throughout.
OP
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
So you think a hand like JJ would raise the flop but a set should just call? I don't get it. That is a very wet flop that presents flush and straight draws, super coordinated. I'm not sure why you expect a single overpair to raise and a set to just call and not protect itself from all the draws out there (or to try to get it in against the blind who donk-betted that may have something like 76 for top two against your bottom set that could be scared from putting more money in the pot if a whole host of cards hit the turn bringing straights or flushes)
Just calling with a set there allows all the other players to hit those draws, or potentially kills your action against a strong but 2nd best hand that may falter when a scare card hits the turn.
Jimulacrum
Full House
A set has less to fear than an overpair, especially if the overpair is 99–JJ. Not only can a set improve to a boat, but it also doesn't have to worry about overcards hitting, whereas that would be devastating to a middling pair.
Don't get me wrong, I'd want to raise with the set there too. But I can see an argument for trying to slowplay the set, and I know it's something people often reflexively do (even if it's risky), whereas trying to slowplay 99–JJ would be madness.
OP
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
I would view overplaying the overpair to be madness. This flop/situation for a hand like JJ can easily be a WAWB spot, and raising could put you in a difficult spot (because you can get shoved on where JJ might have to fold but the set can comfortably call)
Jimulacrum
Full House
This is part of the reason you should raise the overpair, IMO. If SB donk bets and you just flat, it may induce less predictable responses from your opponents. Now if someone raises behind you, you have a shitty decision on your hands.
If you raise, though, even if it's a min or small raise (say, 15K/6K), someone playing back at you is a huge red flag and an easy fold (subject to stack sizes, anyway). And yes, sometimes you'll be folding to a combo draw or something like
, but do you honestly want to play for stacks against a hand like that with two cards to come?This is why I like raising the set too. No point in making things tricky. Make a move to chase out the draws and hopefully get someone on the hook with a beaten made hand. Things will only get muckier for a set of deuces on a board like this as more cards come.
But I know that this isn't how everyone plays sets, especially TAGs who are afraid they won't get action when they finally flop a big one. Lots of players instantly fall back on an instinct to slowplay when they get a set or better, which is where I was reading this Villain's strength. I mean, c'mon, a TAG flat-calling? TAGs are generally raise-or-fold animals.
bergs
Royal Flush
That is fucking amazing. I've never seen this in a home game and hope never to do so, and it's spooked me at underground games before, but in the casino this is so incredible awesome.
bergs
Royal Flush
Only if you powder me later, Daddy.
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