FDLmold
Royal Flush
Posting to follow. I can't wait to read about the denouement.
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What do you do when you’re ridiculously stuck in a session? (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Windwalker
- Start date
OP
OP
An update:
My notes about when the sets over sets happened, what frequency, on what street etc are all now irrelevant, as my "investigators" were able to confirm that the game is rigged, and that there is usually a mark. Most of the time the marks are senior executives or businesspeople who occasionally play poker, and tend to stop when they lose a few times, but I was apparently unusually persistent at the game, which led to all the red flags. The game is relatively new, and has been in play only for about 9 weeks. They have 2 mechanisms for foul play: first, one of their dealers is a well-known card mechanic, known for extreme card control and is even a master of the middle-deal; but their primary mode is a custom 3D-printed shuffler with optical card recognition and sorting capability, able to be controlled by a remote computer to target any seat at any time.
I have separated myself from how my team was able to come by this information, but the reason for this update is this text that I just received (Screenshot was up for a while, deleting on advice from a friend).
The gist of the text (from one of the game organizers) is that my head of security and the investigator spoke to his partner and while they maintain nothing untoward is happening, and they will conduct an internal looksie, they would like to resolve this "quietly" by returning my losses to me. I have not responded yet, but will keep you posted on what I plan to do. It will definitely NOT include letting them continue the scam.
My notes about when the sets over sets happened, what frequency, on what street etc are all now irrelevant, as my "investigators" were able to confirm that the game is rigged, and that there is usually a mark. Most of the time the marks are senior executives or businesspeople who occasionally play poker, and tend to stop when they lose a few times, but I was apparently unusually persistent at the game, which led to all the red flags. The game is relatively new, and has been in play only for about 9 weeks. They have 2 mechanisms for foul play: first, one of their dealers is a well-known card mechanic, known for extreme card control and is even a master of the middle-deal; but their primary mode is a custom 3D-printed shuffler with optical card recognition and sorting capability, able to be controlled by a remote computer to target any seat at any time.
I have separated myself from how my team was able to come by this information, but the reason for this update is this text that I just received (Screenshot was up for a while, deleting on advice from a friend).
The gist of the text (from one of the game organizers) is that my head of security and the investigator spoke to his partner and while they maintain nothing untoward is happening, and they will conduct an internal looksie, they would like to resolve this "quietly" by returning my losses to me. I have not responded yet, but will keep you posted on what I plan to do. It will definitely NOT include letting them continue the scam.
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Sounds like they are offering you hush money so they can continue running the scam
OP
OP
Indeed. Definitely won't fly with me.
FDLmold
Royal Flush
For sure, this. Hell of an investigation you spearheaded. Probably very tempting to go scorched earth.
TheDuke
Full House
Wow. Pretend play nice and get your $$ back. Then burn this operation to the ground.
Was the girl in on the scam?
Pretty sophisticated to build their own shuffling machine.
Was the girl in on the scam?
Pretty sophisticated to build their own shuffling machine.
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Everyone's threshold for what they can tolerate emotionally with respect to tilt varies along a spectrum, so I don't think what works for some also works for others. That said, my tolerance for not tilting is extremely high (which probably comes as a surprise given that I usually give people shit online). But at the tables, you can run me out with 24o vs my KK on a K82 flop into K8222 and I'm just going to smile or laugh and say, "nice hand". I'm not saying I'm not capable of tilting, but it would be extremely rare, and probably would have more to do with the environment for me than it would how the cards are running. I also play well below my bankroll, so winning or losing a few hundred or few thousand on any given night isn't going to change my life one bit. That helps. But my point in saying all this is that someone who rarely tilts should use a different barometer for when to quit than for someone who tilts easily. For myself, I count my mistakes. If I make more than 3 stupid mistakes in a night, then I'll generally call it a wrap and pick up my chips (unless I'm playing with friends for low stakes and it's more of a social gathering). I try to evaluate my play objectively and when I do something dumb that I should have known better on, I count it against me.
For people who tilt more easily, counting mistakes probably isn't as useful because they're typically not in the right headspace to evaluate things as objectively. For those people, I usually advise them to get up from the table, go outside, and take a walk to clear their mind whenever they find themselves noticeably frustrated by the outcome of a hand. If you find yourself putting in some serious mileage with that approach, it's probably time to call it a wrap.
For people who tilt more easily, counting mistakes probably isn't as useful because they're typically not in the right headspace to evaluate things as objectively. For those people, I usually advise them to get up from the table, go outside, and take a walk to clear their mind whenever they find themselves noticeably frustrated by the outcome of a hand. If you find yourself putting in some serious mileage with that approach, it's probably time to call it a wrap.
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OP
OP
The girl was not. They’re just incentivized to bring in players they see as “action” players, which I definitely am.
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Ouch! I was just about to comment on the statistical probabilities of your beats from that first post, as it's effectively impossible to run that bad if you were playing holdem. Hell, it's effectively impossible to run half that bad or even a third that bad if you were playing holdem over an 11 hour session. Which tells me either you were playing other games or the game was rigged. Sorry to hear about this. I hope you can find someone who will cut off their balls in a dark alley and feed them to wild hogs.
TheDuke
Full House
It's crazy that this crew is smart enough to build a shuffler capable of stacking a deck but are too stupid to reign in their greed.
I mean they could have scammed you for half of the amount on some coolers. You probably would have just chalked it up to a cold deck. But they had to push the envelope and scam as much as they could.
I mean, it didn't even have to be setting you up for coolers. They could have scammed you Mike Postle style and just relayed your hand to the scammers at the table. And just pick off your bluffs, etc. These guys are dumb.
I mean they could have scammed you for half of the amount on some coolers. You probably would have just chalked it up to a cold deck. But they had to push the envelope and scam as much as they could.
I mean, it didn't even have to be setting you up for coolers. They could have scammed you Mike Postle style and just relayed your hand to the scammers at the table. And just pick off your bluffs, etc. These guys are dumb.
OP
OP
I’ve been told they bought the operation from someone who got out of the “game” a few months ago, as Covid dried up games. They have the tech, but clearly are not the smartest. They bought the tech, hired new operators, and were just getting their footing.
FDLmold
Royal Flush
I have enjoyed your candor in this thread, @Windwalker. It is a good illustration that if scammers catch any of us just right, we can all get took.
utgtrash
Straight
Definitely the wildest con story I’ve heard from a first hand source.
I dunno. It’s easy to stand on the outside and say these guys are stupid for skinning not shearing, but it’s got to be tough finding a balance, especially if you’ve got a lot invested in the scheme and need to show a certain profit weekly profit.
Like, not that we want to be coming up with tips for cheaters, but how many people need to be in on it, in addition to the dealer? Can’t be just one - if the same guy wins every week, it would be figured out quickly. So maybe it’s a few? But then that’s more expensive - you’ll have to pay each of them each week. Seems to me to be a tricky balancing act.
it’s one thing to travel from game to game and cheat and then disappear. But hosting a crooked game, regularly, in the same place - that probably takes a lot more finesse than we can even imagine.
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Nanook
Full House
No need to build a shuffling machine. The commercially available ones that card rooms use every day are capable of this.
I have been shown how they work by a mechanic that works on them all the time. No need to alter cards either. The machines are capable of reading the the faces of standard cards straight from Kem or whatever card company the cards come from and arranging the deck any way one wants.
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TheDuke
Full House
Windwalker noted their typical marks would lose a couple of buyins and then leave. Taking someone for $80k when the normal hit job is more likely far less is stupid.
He's kind of already explained it. They have hired hot women to scout other games and bring in victims. So they have an active network of recruiters.
Evidently the finesse to host a crooked game was beyond this crew's imagination as well. It was only running for 9 weeks before overplaying their hand.
One thing I don’t get is why a crooked room would ever bother using a mechanic/ cardsharp if they have a perfect automatic shuffler which can cold deck anyone at any time, remotely. No matter how good the mechanic is, it introduces the small possibility of detection.
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OP
OP
I wondered the same thing — apparently it was for when the machine broke down, which was apparently relatively frequently. It stopped working twice during my own session. I’m told it isn’t a modified Shufflemaster or anything like that (as @Nanook describes above), but a custom 3D-printed piece of tech.
EDIT: I have purposely stayed away from *how* all this information was obtained, just relaying what I’ve been told.
But lose it to whom? Certainly you’re not implying that every week, 8 guys plus a dealer are in on this, and the 9th seat is the lone mark?
I dunno, I’m just thinking.
gopherblue
Straight Flush
Wow, this is unbelievable.
Just came across this thread. Regarding the original post, it is not unusual for layers to lose 1000+ BBs in our game...and we play once a week, sometimes twice a week. More often than not, we have more than one player losing 1000BB+...so, every game is obviously different. This is a game among 'friends'. We don't let outsiders in the group, nor do we invite pros or anyone we don't know (we do have a few pros among our circle of friends, but none are invited to the game)... someone has to vouch (and guarantee) another player to be considered, hence there is an extremely high level of trust. The game has no rake and has been running for almost 6 years now. I personally have never 'left' the game, even being down multiple buy-ins. When do I quit a game is usually when I don't have fun (and in our game, hardly ever happens), but my rule at a casino is usually if I lose 3 buy-ins (typically I realize I am not playing well/running well...but there is always entertainment to be had).
Regarding the cheating: I stopped playing in raked games almost a decade ago as there is always some sort of drama or shenanigan in those games (not to mention legal/licensing issues with raids, etc.). And at high stake levels, cheating can never be ruled out (personally, I suspect it happens a lot more than people think).
We had a major incident in NYC recently at a game where one of our players played a few times. It involved special lenses/glasses, marked cards, and gaining the trust of the host He is a competent/winning player, but kept saying 'I don't know how I am losing at this game all the time'...but kept going back because it was action-packed with lots of big pots all night long. A year later we found out the game was rigged. We heard the group of unsuspecting businessmen lost between $350K-500K by 3 individuals/players and the host wasn't involved, but can't be sure. Apparently they had done this before at other games around town (and other places as well)
Jennifer Shahade interviewed May Siu, a pro/semi pro player who also played in that game, and she details the cheat in this podcast (I think starts after the 12th minute mark): https://thepokergrid.com/2021/05/01/the-grid-055-ft-may-siu-pocket-jacks/
Regarding the cheating: I stopped playing in raked games almost a decade ago as there is always some sort of drama or shenanigan in those games (not to mention legal/licensing issues with raids, etc.). And at high stake levels, cheating can never be ruled out (personally, I suspect it happens a lot more than people think).
We had a major incident in NYC recently at a game where one of our players played a few times. It involved special lenses/glasses, marked cards, and gaining the trust of the host He is a competent/winning player, but kept saying 'I don't know how I am losing at this game all the time'...but kept going back because it was action-packed with lots of big pots all night long. A year later we found out the game was rigged. We heard the group of unsuspecting businessmen lost between $350K-500K by 3 individuals/players and the host wasn't involved, but can't be sure. Apparently they had done this before at other games around town (and other places as well)
Jennifer Shahade interviewed May Siu, a pro/semi pro player who also played in that game, and she details the cheat in this podcast (I think starts after the 12th minute mark): https://thepokergrid.com/2021/05/01/the-grid-055-ft-may-siu-pocket-jacks/
This may be mentioned way back in the thread, but I’m curious if they let you win a little back at the end (to induce a return visit), or did you get up from the table on a bust out?
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TheDuke
Full House
No. I don't think it would have to be a full table vs one. The claim is that the entire deck can be manipulated. You have a couple of marks you set up against one or a handful of players. You could even have a full table of marks and just one guy.
Over the course of the night you funnel money to the co-conspirator from the marks.
If they were smart, the hands would just be random legit hands a large amount of the time but the inside man is relayed hole card info. Set up some big hands spaced out throughout the night. Not so concentrated (like what happened) as to be totally ludicrous and a statistical anomaly. Why not set up the mark with AA or KK and the inside guy catches 2 pair on the turn or river. Or AK vs AQ and spike the A on the flop. Or if the mark is known to be draw happy give him draws that never make it. Bleed the mark throughout the night. Not bludgeon them over the head with massive hands. But instead they set up major coolers. Set over set. Boat over boat. Flush over flush. That's just crazy.
I'd be interested to hear how the night played out in general. How were other players doing? Lots of players coming and going? Were these coolers against a single player or spread out to multiple people?
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horseshoez
4 of a Kind
Almost feels like watching an episode of Magnum PI. Where’s Higgins when you need him?!
Who shit the bed and made you Higgins?
horseshoez
4 of a Kind
OP
OP
I was down $108k at one point, but won a sizable pot towards the end to get back to about $80k down. I was just too tired at that point and quit.
To @TheDuke’s questions, we now know for sure they have about 3-4 house players that rotate in and out of the game per night. I didn’t pay much attention to that because it’s pretty common. They also have a lot of distractions. Girls, masseuses, a barber, a chef, dancers, and a lot of people who hang around to chat / socialize.
Look, I’ve had big swings before, but none that were so often with good hands being cooled. I wasn’t in the right mindset to analyze it properly, which I think is the point when you’re in it.
As @kk405 mentioned, it’s not unusual for large games to be crooked. In fact, I’ve heard of some in LA, especially in the San Fernando valley. I just never thought I’d be in the middle of one.
For anyone who’s interested, I opted to “play nice”and get wired back the money. Waiting for it to hit tomorrow before deciding anything else.
Back at the K8 house tonight, the one without a rake and trustworthy people. Fuck the ugly chips, it’s a great game lol.
two words: scorched earth
FDLmold
Royal Flush
The denoms are terrible, but they are bold and legible. Color matched inlays are well thought out. Not bad for stickers on plastic chips.
I've seen this tech before too. Not that hard to pull off.
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