What is an unpopular or uncommon strategy viewpoint that you have? (3 Viewers)

[TheDuke]

I don't doubt you can keep a game together for a while on skeevy regs alone. But your game won't grow, and any game that isn't growing is shrinking. Especially if the game across the street isn't overrun with sketchballs who chase out every other newcomer.

I can't comment about how the poker room has done over the years since I haven't been there in a long time.

I might live in a unique place. We have a population of 1.4 million that has sustained all of these casinos. Some are fairly new so it seems like the market is able to sustain all of these places. People here like to gamble... Alot. We recently had a 50/50 draw that was over $14.2 million.

 

[Beakertwang]

Calling people chicken after putting out a pot size bet and taunting with "bok bok" encourages calls.

View attachment 671852

 

[trigs]

I always complement fishy play. Jamming 72o preflop? “Nice hand.”

I tend to do this in the casino, but not in home games with friends.

I'll complement or agree with terrible strategies, plays, etc. when I'm playing strangers. "Oh, yeah. Definitely have to jam there with bottom pair." "Of course. Overbets are always a bluff." "No way you can fold that straight even with the flush on the board - I wouldn't."

 

[AK Chip]

Call, call, call, fold

 

[JustinInMN]

This should prompt some interesting discussion.

I'll start by saying that, for the most part, a starting hand of ace/king offsuit, unless in late position, is very overvalued by lots of rec players and pros alike, and is played like a hand that has a lot more in equity than it actually has by lots of players regardless of experience. Flame away!

JJ is not as bad as you think.

 

[JustinInMN]

Cash game takes more skill than tournament play. Don’t @ me

I mean the better players in each discipline will still rise to the top over time. But the pool of employable cash strategies is WAY wider where as tournament strategy requires extreme self-protection over boldness for success.

 

[philhut]

I don't get this. I'm pretty sure my heart pounds when I make a big bet, whether I'm bluffing or not.

I'm a nurse and working in emergency and critical care most of my career. I can easily observe the pulsations of your jugular vein's when people are in the later stages of heart failure, I was surprised to observe the same on many players at times of stress in card games. It's not 100% reliable as some people have some level tachycardia when both bluffing as well as playing a strong hand. Then I thought hmm if I can notice this then so can others so I tried practicing "faking" it. To me it is barely passable but I have heard others specifically commenting on my heart rate, while I was faking.....then after laughing how even that was a crazy bluff....

Pupil Dilation, eye movements, diaphoresis (sweating), body movements, yawning, etc are all phsiological responses, from various stimuli. Someone who is deeper into the cups will have a different appearance giving away their level of consumption, this can be exploited if one wished. Eye movements have a statistical average based on thought processing. Certain eye movements paired with behaviour can give a suggestion as to the thought processing involved and whether players are speaking or acting truthfully, deceptively etc... Again because 1 player yawns after the flop when they have a strong hand doesn't mean that another player will or the same player will yawn again next time. Its about gambling with as much angle information as you can possibly gain or at least that perceived edge whether real or not.

It sounds great, but know that I see the same health information everywhere I go.....Standing in line at the grocery store I can see a person who has chronic COPD based on the sound of their breathing, resp effort or shape of their fingernails.....level of alcohol consumption based on smell, behaviour, appearance and even sometimes speech....Rheumatoid arthritis.....Cancer.....Drug Use etc..... Sometimes I wish I could and actively try to "turn it off". Pro's and Con's

 

[upNdown]

where as tournament strategy requires extreme self-protection over boldness for success.

Tell that to Gus Hansen

 

[djfayze]

I'm a nurse and working in emergency and critical care most of my career. I can easily observe the pulsations of your jugular vein's when people are in the later stages of heart failure, I was surprised to observe the same on many players at times of stress in card games. It's not 100% reliable as some people have some level tachycardia when both bluffing as well as playing a strong hand. Then I thought hmm if I can notice this then so can others so I tried practicing "faking" it. To me it is barely passable but I have heard others specifically commenting on my heart rate, while I was faking.....then after laughing how even that was a crazy bluff....

Pupil Dilation, eye movements, diaphoresis (sweating), body movements, yawning, etc are all phsiological responses, from various stimuli. Someone who is deeper into the cups will have a different appearance giving away their level of consumption, this can be exploited if one wished. Eye movements have a statistical average based on thought processing. Certain eye movements paired with behaviour can give a suggestion as to the thought processing involved and whether players are speaking or acting truthfully, deceptively etc... Again because 1 player yawns after the flop when they have a strong hand doesn't mean that another player will or the same player will yawn again next time. Its about gambling with as much angle information as you can possibly gain or at least that perceived edge whether real or not.

It sounds great, but know that I see the same health information everywhere I go.....Standing in line at the grocery store I can see a person who has chronic COPD based on the sound of their breathing, resp effort or shape of their fingernails.....level of alcohol consumption based on smell, behaviour, appearance and even sometimes speech....Rheumatoid arthritis.....Cancer.....Drug Use etc..... Sometimes I wish I could and actively try to "turn it off". Pro's and Con's

Medical student here, can confirm that it ruins how you look at people everywhere you go lol.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

one scheme is this when hosting new players I give out tournament stacks light on the far right......Why? lots of low value chips can lead to a lot more limping or low level bets etc... with new players. This effect does not work as well with more experienced players. A host can at least set up starting stacks to gain a perceived edge sometimes.

There are guys in my weekly tourney group who have been playing for 10+ years, and they will still limp ATC in the early rounds of a tourney if they have a big stack of T25s.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

"You should never show your hand unless you have to"

I say showing your hole cards is one of the best ways to get inside your opponents' heads. I often show my hole cards. I'll show bluffs, the nuts, and mediocre hands as well.

I agree, showing hands for image management is somewhat underrated.

I often play like a mega-nit in the casino, but if I'm not getting action, I'll spend a few bucks on a trash hand and show it. Better players sometimes know what I'm doing, but it almost always helps.

Less often, if I'm on a little heater during a tourney, I'll show good hands when I don't have to. For those who are vulnerable to the heater fallacy, it helps generate more folds.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I don't get this. I'm pretty sure my heart pounds when I make a big bet, whether I'm bluffing or not.

Same here, and players have noticed it many times in casino and home games. It has nothing to do with whether I'm bluffing or not - usually if I'm a little over-caffeinated, that's enough to get the heart racing when I make a big bet.

 

[JustinInMN]

I’ll split two face cards if the dealer is showing a 6. You want to get as much money on the table when you have the known advantage I figure.

Surest way to turn a 20 into two 15s.

I usually refuse to vpip with 22.

This isn't that unpopular. Especially in preflop aggressive games, the small pairs should be dumped routinely in EP and MP. Hard to pass in late position though if unraised or first in.

Tell that to Gus Hansen

I mean, he broke the mold on this for sure 15 years ago. But even as an aggro tournament player, he can be even more so in cash.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Hold'em is a beginners' game that has been blown way out of proportion.

I'm with you on the first part, but I wouldn't say it has been blown out of proportion so much as it is popular as a consequence of its accessibility.

Hold'em is relatively easy to learn, and it doesn't take a lot of work to pick up a basic strategy, so it makes sense that it appeals to beginners. Because of that, you would expect it to be wildly popular. Other games are harder to learn, harder to win, and less appealing to the masses.

Big-bet poker is bad for the poker economy, gradually whittling it down to serious, high-skill players and only the most generous of donators. Limit betting is a far superior structure for growing the hobby and keeping good games together.

Buy-in caps on big bet games help mitigate this, which is why I'm not a huge fan of uncapped casino games. It's also one of the reasons I chose not to allow half-the-big-stack rebuys in my home game.

Pocket kings are foldable preflop in NLHE.

I'd qualify this by saying that you should almost never fold kings preflop. I think we've all done it, and I think many of us remember each time and the situation that got us there.

 

[ekricket]

Surest way to turn a 20 into two 15s.


This isn't that unpopular. Especially in preflop aggressive games, the small pairs should be dumped routinely in EP and MP. Hard to pass in late position though if unraised or first in.


I mean, he broke the mold on this for sure 15 years ago. But even as an aggro tournament player, he can be even more so in cash.

Let me put it this way- if the dealer dealt his cards first and his up card was a 6, and then they gave you a choice to play one hand or two hands against this, what would you do?
I don’t have a “right” answer, just curious.

 

[Highli99]

Let me put it this way- if the dealer dealt his cards first and his up card was a 6, and then they gave you a choice to play one hand or two hands against this, what would you do?
I don’t have a “right” answer, just curious.

Seems like a bird in hand vs two in bush dilemma. I’m guessing maff is solved on this one.

 

[Kain8]

Big-bet poker is bad for the poker economy, gradually whittling it down to serious, high-skill players and only the most generous of donators. Limit betting is a far superior structure for growing the hobby and keeping good games together.

100% agreed for many years now. I used to play in a 1/2 NLHE home game where the host printed (he owned his own printing press) and provided the use of actual markers in his game. You'd have to settle up at least half your markers for the next game to be dealt in, and you could buy in with those won markers should you choose to do so.

It got to the point where I had almost $2,000 in markers from the host himself. He'd settle up with me like clockwork every game but the whole concept just seemed ripe for abuse, which thankfully never occurred.

The game played way too high given the amount of cash brought to the table thanks to the markers involved. Players would throw caution to the wind with buy-ins as they didn't have to pay for it right there and then, and could do so later. Predictably, players would only come by to pay some / all of their marker tab, have $100 or $200 left to play with, and didn't want to get in deeper marker debt when they busted out. This in turn made the game eventually fizzle out when the marker heavy players had to confront their past losses rather than in the moment.

If we instead played a limit structure, the bleeding would be stemmed quite a lot from the bad players. But bad players don't want to play limit because their suckouts don't convert into a whole stack / double up.

 

[TheBigTater]

Let me put it this way- if the dealer dealt his cards first and his up card was a 6, and then they gave you a choice to play one hand or two hands against this, what would you do?
I don’t have a “right” answer, just curious.

Unless the count was highly negative I'd play as many hands as they would let me against a dealer up 6.

 

[ekricket]

Unless the count was highly negative I'd play as many hands as they would let me against a dealer up 6.

Right, I mean who wouldn’t? Yet when you do this exact thing in real life the whole table goes on tilt. It’s hilarious, especially when you get another 20 and split it too. Then when you collect three bets instead of one they complain even more.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Let me put it this way- if the dealer dealt his cards first and his up card was a 6, and then they gave you a choice to play one hand or two hands against this, what would you do?
I don’t have a “right” answer, just curious.

Depends on the count of the deck. If the shoe has a disproportionate number of high cards remaining, you should split. If it has a disproportionate number of low cards remaining, you should stand. If you can't/won't count the deck, then why not just go play roulette or Pai Gow?

 

[tabletalker7]

I don't know if this is "sound" strategy or not but here goes ......

You beat the small pairs by having 2 over cards and winning the race. You beat the big pairs with suited connectors looking for straights and flushes. When someone raises pre and everybody runs thinking they have a big pair, I call with my suited connectors. The way I figure, either I will love the flop or hate it. Easy to get away from post flop, but it requires a lot to keep you in it. I found myself cracking bullets or cowboys with 4 5 suited A LOT.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I don't know if this is "sound" strategy or not but here goes ......

You beat the small pairs by having 2 over cards and winning the race. You beat the big pairs with suited connectors looking for straights and flushes. When someone raises pre and everybody runs thinking they have a big pair, I call with my suited connectors. The way I figure, either I will love the flop or hate it. Easy to get away from post flop, but it requires a lot to keep you in it. I found myself cracking bullets or cowboys with 4 5 suited A LOT.

Generally, when people lose money with suited connector hands in the long run, it's mostly because of their pre-flop calls.

 

[upNdown]

Generally, when people lose money with suited connector hands in the long run, it's mostly because of their pre-flop calls.

I remember hearing Phil Ivy said he made the most money on suited connectors. Then I began to have a sneaking suspicion that maybe Phil Ivy plays suited connectors differently than I do.

 

[JustinInMN]

Generally, when people lose money with suited connector hands in the long run, it's mostly because of their pre-flop calls.

I disagree, I think the most money is lost on marginal post-flop calls. Overpaying for gutshots, defending with second pair at a range disadvantage, etc. Granted you avoid these mistakes by avoiding the preflop call, but you also avoid the profitable situations these hand provide.

My theory on hold'em in general is everybody can play a "pretty good" preflop game and that gets a lot of players very far, even just starting out. This alone I think accounts for a lot of holdem's popularity. But the biggest decisions come later in the hands that separate the best from the good.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I remember hearing Phil Ivy said he maid the most money on suited connectors. Then I began to have a sneaking suspicion that maybe Phil Ivy plays suited connectors differently than I do.

I've made a ton off suited connectors. They key is getting in cheap because they don't hit very often.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I disagree, I think the most money is lost on marginal post-flop calls. Overpaying for gutshots, defending with second pair at a range disadvantage, etc. Granted you avoid these mistakes by avoiding the preflop call, but you also avoid the profitable situations these hand provide.

My theory on hold'em in general is everybody can play a "pretty good" preflop game and that gets a lot of players very far, even just starting out. This alone I think accounts for a lot of holdem's popularity. But the biggest decisions come later in the hands that separate the best from the good.

Perhaps I should have said the reason that otherwise good players lose money on them is because of pre-flop play. Overpaying for gutshots and paying people off on boards that are good for your opponents ranges is always a terrible recipe for disaster regardless of one's holding.

 

[upNdown]

I've made a ton off suited connectors. They key is getting in cheap because they don't hit very often.

I just figured the key was raising with them, and either hitting them big, or else repping two good cards to win the pot.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I just figured the key was raising with them, and either hitting them big, or else repping two good cards to win the pot.

That actually does work too. The key with that approach is balancing your range to keep your opponents guessing. Poker is all about balance.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I can't comment about how the poker room has done over the years since I haven't been there in a long time.

I might live in a unique place. We have a population of 1.4 million that has sustained all of these casinos. Some are fairly new so it seems like the market is able to sustain all of these places. People here like to gamble... Alot. We recently had a 50/50 draw that was over $14.2 million.

Clearly such a game can survive. I'm just coming from a more general observation that angle-shooting is bad for the game as a whole.

I think anyone who manages a game has a responsibility to protect the players, especially the weaker players. Part of this is having well-considered and clearly stated rules that are enforced consistently, and not tolerating any behavior that goes against the spirit of those rules.

If a cardroom wants to be known as the angle-shooting place where you can get away with anything, I guess that's its own niche. I just hate the idea of recreational players going in there, getting essentially swindled, and being turned off to poker.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'm with you on the first part, but I wouldn't say it has been blown out of proportion so much as it is popular as a consequence of its accessibility.

Hold'em is relatively easy to learn, and it doesn't take a lot of work to pick up a basic strategy, so it makes sense that it appeals to beginners. Because of that, you would expect it to be wildly popular. Other games are harder to learn, harder to win, and less appealing to the masses.

By "blown out of proportion," I mostly meant the whole "Cadillac of poker" line of thinking, like it's the top game out of all of them, not just that it's popular. But all of your points are well-taken.

Buy-in caps on big bet games help mitigate this, which is why I'm not a huge fan of uncapped casino games. It's also one of the reasons I chose not to allow half-the-big-stack rebuys in my home game.

I agree. It's okay for an infrequent or very competitive game to have a big-bet structure (including with no cap or a high cap), but it's not healthy for a regular game with a mix of skill levels. Big-bet structures are of course great for tournaments, though.

I'd qualify this by saying that you should almost never fold kings preflop. I think we've all done it, and I think many of us remember each time and the situation that got us there.

I don't recall every time I've done it, but off the top of my head it's more than five. Mix of tourneys and cash. Sometimes obvious aces are just that obvious.

Royals, on the other hand, I have a running count and remember at least the game I was playing for each.