What year did they stop making shaped inlay or coin in center chips ? (2 Viewers)

[BGinGA]

The last (and only glossy) shaped inlay produced by GPI that I know of was the World Top Hat & Cane set in 2006-ish. Glossy inlay laminates were introduced to allow for the newer generation of security features, which were not feasible with the old style inlays.

 

[Psypher1000]

To resupply existing sets. For example, Paris 1s.

Ah, apologies, mate. I misread that and mistakenly thought you were referring to shapped inlays obviously still being made. I haven't seen any new ones of those in quite a while.

 

[Lemonzest]

The last (and only glossy) shaped inlay produced by GPI that I know of was the World Top Hat & Cane set in 2006-ish. Glossy inlay laminates were introduced to allow for the newer generation of security features, which were not feasible with the old style inlays.

Ah that makes sense if the new inlays allow for security features.

 

[gmunny]

Revisiting this thread, I found the below Circus Circus $5 shaped inlay was issued in 2009 per the Chip Guide. I guess it counts as a re-order?

I think i have this chip, but can't find the image at the moment. All images below are from the Chip Guide:
Front and Back issued in 2009

The original 1991 version was same on both sides.

 

[BGinGA]

Revisiting this thread, I found the below Circus Circus $5 shaped inlay was issued in 2009 per the Chip Guide. I guess it counts as a re-order?

I think i have this chip, but can't find the image at the moment. All images below are from the Chip Guide:
Front and Back issued in 2009

The original 1991 version was same on both sides.

Pretty sure I have both versions in my hub inlay collection. I'll take a look.

 

[BGinGA]

Pretty sure I have both versions in my hub inlay collection. I'll take a look.

Yep, both of my chips are near-identical, except for the inlay artwork. Both are excellent condition (the newer one actually appears to be mint), both are SCV mold, both have crosshatching on the shaped inlay surface, both 'feel' the same, and both appear to weigh roughly the same -- 9.0 to 9.2 grams, estimated given my scale's limitations.

(My scale only reads full grams -- both chips display 9g independently, both chips together = 18g, and each chip with another known 8g object always displays 17g. That would indicate that they do not weigh less than 9.0, nor weigh more than 9.25. Yes, it's possible that one could actually weigh 8.6 and the other 9.4, but they feel much closer than that).

It is also very possible that my 1991 version chip was not actually produced in 1991, but was a subsequent re-order -- possibly even after 1999, but prior to the 2009 inlay changes. That would explain the similarities in weight, since they would both have been made with the new lead-free formula. Of course, the chip guide might be mistaken, with the 2009 chip actually having been made in 1999.

We need to find a really worn 1991 version (more likely to be original issue) and see how heavy it is.

 

[joepro]

Revisiting this thread, I found the below Circus Circus $5 shaped inlay was issued in 2009 per the Chip Guide. I guess it counts as a re-order?

I think i have this chip, but can't find the image at the moment. All images below are from the Chip Guide:
Front and Back issued in 2009

The original 1991 version was same on both sides.

DIBS!

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I just came across this thread, and the brief discussion about the lead in Christy Jones and Paul-Son chips. It reminded me of an article I read years ago by someone who looked inside the Christy & Jones THC chips. Here; http://www.ccgtcc-ccn.com/Superweights.pdf

Years ago, someone x-rayed a bunch of Christy & Jones THC chips and found that all the Nevada casino chips with inlays had a small lead disk under the inlay, in the center of the chip. The few Christy & Jones THC hot stamp chips he x-rayed did not have a lead disk, and none of the later Paul-Son chips with or without inlays.

This article makes me think that Burt Co. produced a standard chip without any weighted material. (People on this forum have noted that a lot of the old Burt Co. chips feel kind of light compared to modern Paulsons or CPCs.)

But I believe that at least some buyers back in the day could ask for their chips to be weighted with a lead disk. In fact, I suspect that there were possibly three different weights that Burt Co. offered; Unweighted, Weighted, and finally a “Tri-Heavy Weight” chip. (Below is a photo of a Burt manufactured B.C. Willis “Tri-Heavy Weight” sample chip on the Large Key mold. I haven’t had a chance to weigh it.)

At some point, the Burt Co. before 1988 (or possibly ASM after 1988), stopped using that whole system of using lead discs and replaced it with the mixing of brass dust/flakes into the clay composition. Paulson instead went with the more dangerous route of mixing lead into their clay mixture in the 1970s.

Does anyone know when Burt Co or ASM began to use brass flakes in their standard chip composition? Have some of you come across old Burt Co. chips from the 50s or 60s with brass flakes? Does anyone know when they stopped using lead discs?

 

[gmunny]

I forgot about that old article. Burt did make some of those weighted chips including the C&J's, the Caesar's H mold, the Nevada Club $10 HHL, etc. I think when Paulson took over the mold, they mixed in the lead in the clay.

I haven't weighed them, but generally i have found by handling them, the older the chip, the lighter they were. For example a small key from the 1940's seemed a lot lighter in weight than one from the 50s or 60s. I am guessing the clay formula changed as time went by and eventually, they added the lead weights. After everyone figured out lead was bad, they looked for alternatives, such as brass flakes.

 

[BGinGA]

I think when Paulson took over the mold, they mixed in the lead in the clay.

Not until they started making them in-house. All of the Burt-produced THC chips are lead-free.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I think BGinGA is likely right that Burt Co. never mass-produced chips that had lead in the formula. I wouldn't call them lead free, as some had lead discs in the interior. I think that the weighted lead discs were used on most molds, at least occasionally, and Christy & Jones inlaid chips almost always.

My main evidence for Burt Co. chips always being lead free is the Chip Talk interview with Jim Blanchard (owner of ASM); https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/old-interview-with-jim-blanchard-seeking-a-copy.56254/

"SV: Certain brand x formulas have come into question. How would you feel that might affect the home market and the professional market?
JB: We've known, and it's been inside knowledge that Paulson, TR King, Blue Chip, which was Paulson...the Endy family. They've been using the lead weighted chip. We took a look at that process and we realized that it's not safe to use lead in chips. It's not really an issue an issue of handling lead, because lead, by nature is not absorbed through the skin. The danger comes in the manufacturing process, breathing lead. That's the most difficult part of it."

Blanchard also plays down the idea that the mixture was changed in significant ways, which is a little confusing because the adding of brass powder for weight seems significant.

SV: Has the actual recipe of the chips changed over the years?
JB: No, there have only been minor changes to the formula. The basic formula has been unchanged, since...well, as far has I can document, it's been unchanged since the 1940's, right after the war. I'm not sure what they did before that, since I have no documentation of formulation. Certainly, it hasn't changed since the 1940's...early 1950's.

Looking through a hundred or so of old Burt chips, I can’t find evidence in my small sample of them having mixed brass powder into the mixture of older chips, but I can find some hints of maybe when the transition happened. It’s easiest to see the brass powder on the rolling edge of black chips. With lighter colors it can be tough to see the brass at all. Pictured below are two Burt Co black chips, and two ASM black chips. From left to right, the Kentucky Club is from the 1940s, The Alibi (according to The Chip Guide) is from a California cardroom open from 1985 to 1993, so it is no older than 1985. The edge is identical to the 1940 chip and has no brass flakes. The Flamingo Fantasy is 1990s/2000s, and the ASM advertising chip is from 2012, and they both have brass flakes. The Alibi chip makes me guess that the standard use of brass flakes dates to some time after 1985. Maybe brass powder was used at an earlier time but at such a low level that it is hard to see on the rolling lathed edge.

I imagine that Jim Blanchard or David Spragg might know the real answers.

 

[gmunny]

Not until they started making them in-house. All of the Burt-produced THC chips are lead-free.

Sorry, that is what i meant. To clarify, my above post to point out that the Burt made chips used the lead discs or weights.

 

[gmunny]

Per the Dr. Meyers' Article, I looked up the chips that he x-ray'ed for the lead disc. All the ones with the lead disc were from the 1960's.

Club per A. Meyers Article	Mold	inlay/hs	Lead Disc	Year
Sierra Tahoe $5	C&J	inlay	Yes	1965​
Nevada Club $10	HHL	inlay	Yes	1962​
Mint 25c	C&J	inlay	Yes	1969​
Caesar's Palace 50c	H	inlay	Yes	1966​
Bonanza $1	C&J	inlay	Yes	1969​
Golden $1	C&J	inlay	Yes	1966​
Tahoe Nugget $5	C&J	inlay	Yes	1962​
Silver Palace $1	C&J	inlay	Yes	1962​
Silver Palace $5	C&J	inlay	Yes	1963​
Silver Palace $25	C&J	inlay	Yes	1963​
Silver Palace $100	C&J	inlay	Yes	1963​

Ok related to whether the formula changed, all i can point out to is the weight of the chip. I randomly pulled out some older small keys from Reno to weight on my crappy food scale. I decided to use the small key mold because they have been used as early as the 40's all the way up to the 60s and wanted to use the same mold. I weighed only hotstamp chips afaik they don't have any lead discs in them.

Club	city	denom	mold	color	hs/inlay	year	grams
Bank Club	Reno	$ 25.00	sm key	orange	hs	1940's	7​
Harrah's Club	Reno	$ 0.25	sm key	blue	hs	1958	11​
Holiday	Reno	$ 100.00	sm key	orange	hs	1962	11​
Horseshoe	Reno	$ 1.00	sm key	red	hs	1956	7​
Shadows	Reno	$ 5.00	sm key	black	hs	1940s	8​

You can see here that the earlier small key's from the 40's were 7-8 grams vs the later chips were 11 grams. Small sample size, but i have found that the older the chips are lighter in weight. Same mold, all hot stamps. Not sure what changed? I guess is should measure the diameter and thickness and check other molds as well.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

Wow Gmunny, great research!

If I had an accurate scale, I would start weighing some of the datable sm key chips I have to add to your database. I should probably get a pair of caliphers too. I notice that some of the sm ky chips I have do have a noticeable diameter/thickness difference. Good that you list color, as that might play a role in their weight, too, as it does for some Paulson chips.

With enough data we could probably generate a pretty accurate measure of how the manufacture of these Burt chips changed over time. Interesting that all of the Burt "lead disc" chips mentioned in that article are from the 1960s. If it turns out that all those of chips have a weight higher than "non-lead disc" chips, say in the 12 to 13 gram range, then they could be identified by weight alone, and there would be no need to x-ray them.

 

[BGinGA]

Looking through a hundred or so of old Burt chips, I can’t find evidence in my small sample of them having mixed brass powder into the mixture of older chips, but I can find some hints of maybe when the transition happened.

As far as I can tell from my research, I don't think that Burt Co. added brass flakes (the company closed in 1985). I also don't know at what point ASM (founded in 1988) started using their weighted formula.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

As far as I can tell from my research, I don't think that Burt Co. added brass flakes (the company closed in 1985). I also don't know at what point ASM (founded in 1998) started using their weighted formula.

Thanks BGinGA, that is helpful. I suspected that the brass flakes were a Jim Blanchard innovation. I'm surprised that he did not mention it in his interview.
Also, I think you meant to write that ASM was founded in 1988, and Burt Co. closed the same year. http://www.classicpokerchips.com/aboutus.htm

 

[BGinGA]

I think you meant to write that ASM was founded in 1988, and Burt Co. closed the same year.

Nope, the dates I cited are correct.

The Portland Billiard Ball Company was founded in 1912 by Alonzo Burt, who later renamed it the Burt Company around 1935, and purchased the United States Playing Card (UPSC) chip molds in 1947..

In 1985, John Kendall, a manager with the firm, bought out the Burt Company. and named his new company Chipco International. Jim Blanchard, the production manager at Burt Co., bought the molds and started his own company, Atlantic Standard Molding, in 1988.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

In 1985, John Kendall, a manager with the firm, bought out the Burt Company. and named his new company Chipco International. Jim Blanchard, the production manager at Burt Co., bought the molds and started his own company, Atlantic Standard Molding, in 1998.

I was a little confused because of how the history of the company is described on the Classic Poker Chips website; http://www.classicpokerchips.com/aboutus.htm

That history states:

"The Burt Company continued making poker chips well into the late 80's. In 1988, Jim Blanchard acquired all the assets from the Burt Company, renamed the company Atlantic Standard Molding and continued making poker chips in Portland, Maine for 24 years until August 2012 when he decided to retire."

I'm working on a creating a timeline for when most compression molded chips were produced and by whom, and I want to get it right.

 

[cpiaaq]

edit: basically said the same thing @Jeff in Iowa did

 

[BGinGA]

That doesn't line up with the info at CPC.

According to my research, Kendall bought the company from Burt's grandson in 1985, and produced clay chips, ceramics, and plastics -- and converted some molds, like the Unicorn -- from 1985-1988 before selling the old Burt Co. assets to Blanchard.

Here is an excerpt from a 2011 article, and I've discovered similar stories several other places:

Until 1985, when it bowed to cheaper competition, the re-named Burt Company shipped casino chips nationwide for the booming American gaming industry made at its quiet, publicity-shy location. CHIPCO International bought the Burt assets that year

 

[cpiaaq]

According to my research, Kendall bought the company from Burt's grandson in 1985, and produced clay chips, ceramics, and plastics -- and converted some molds, like the Unicorn -- from 1985-1988 before selling the old Burt Co. assets to Blanchard.

Here is an excerpt from a 2011 article, and I've discovered similar stories several other places:

1998 above must have been a typo then Always appreciate the knowledge

 

[BGinGA]

1998 above must have been a typo then Always appreciate the knowledge

Ah, yes -- corrected.

 

[gmunny]

Here's a few more tidbits, as i asked Jim Blanchard the same thing back in 2012:

I read somewhere that the name ASM originated in 1988, which was 3 years later. I guess I am wondering about the genesis of how Atlantic Standard Molding originated from Burt and how Chipco International plays a part in all this. This is a total guess, but I would surmise that the owners of Burt Co. wanted to sell the company, which John Kendall bought and then he developed the Chipco chip and sold or spun off the clay chip business, which resulted in the formation of ASM? I can't imagine the same plant cranks out both ASM and Chipco chip.

"Answer No. The Burt co. was sold by A.L. Burt to my cousin Arthur Girard in 1984. I ran the company until it was resold to Kendall in 1985. I also worked for Kendall for about 6 months. In 1988 kendall was developing the chipco chip as the Burt co. was going bankrupt. I bought the assets at that time and started ASM. Chipco was started after the Burt co. failed."

History is fun sometimes

 

[duffman]

Not sure what year these were made, but I've got a rack of Harold's Club $5 chips that are loaded with brass flakes. Chip guide say's '59 but we all know how inaccurate the guide can be on dates.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

Not sure what year these were made, but I've got a rack of Harold's Club $5 chips that are loaded with brass flakes. Chip guide say's '59 but we all know how inaccurate the guide can be on dates.

Nice find! Those flecks certainly look like brass flakes on the rolling edge. The Chip Guide also list that chip as being from 1965, in addition to 1959. http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=NVREHC&v=856651920

In any case, this would seem to establish that the Burt Co. was mixing brass flakes into some "H-Mold" chips (1959 or 1965) at approximately the same time period as they were putting "lead discs" into "H-mold" chips, such as the .50 cent Caesar's Palace chip (1966) that was x-rayed by Dr. Meyer. So during that time period, at least some clients could get a choice of not only weighted or un-weighted chips, but they could choose the type of weight they wanted (brass dust or a lead disc).

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

By the way, I have that same Harold's Club chip. It was one of the ones I briefly looked at to find brass powder edge flecks. I have a picture of the edge of mine compared to the edges of modern CPC chips. There are no edge flecks in my copy. So either a.) you can only really see these flecks when you have a stack of the chips, b.) these chips can get the brass edge flakes rubbed off or hidden somehow, or c.) there was another edition of this exact same chip produced without the brass powder. Hmm.

 

[duffman]

By the way, I have that same Harold's Club chip. It was one of the ones I briefly looked at to find brass powder edge flecks. I have a picture of the edge of mine compared to the edges of modern CPC chips. There are no edge flecks in my copy. So either a.) you can only really see these flecks when you have a stack of the chips, b.) these chips can get the brass edge flakes rubbed off or hidden somehow, or c.) there was another edition of this exact same chip produced without the brass powder. Hmm.

View attachment 479914View attachment 479915

Interesting. I’ve got some ASM produced chips as well as modern CPC’s. I’ll have to try something similar in better lighting in the AM.

 

[pltrgyst]

Ah, yes -- corrected.

You might want to correct post 45 as well, Dave...

 

[gmunny]

Nice find! Those flecks certainly look like brass flakes on the rolling edge. The Chip Guide also list that chip as being from 1965, in addition to 1959. http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=NVREHC&v=856651920

In any case, this would seem to establish that the Burt Co. was mixing brass flakes into some "H-Mold" chips (1959 or 1965) at approximately the same time period as they were putting "lead discs" into "H-mold" chips, such as the .50 cent Caesar's Palace chip (1966) that was x-rayed by Dr. Meyer. So during that time period, at least some clients could get a choice of not only weighted or un-weighted chips, but they could choose the type of weight they wanted (brass dust or a lead disc).

The Harold's Club chips were issued in the H mold with pictures of various Smith's family members from 1953 to as late as 1970. The chip's with the split inserts were made in the 60's and the chip rack says 1965. 1959 is not correct for that chip. In the $5 chips (with Raymond I. "Pappy" Smith) from the chip guide below, the top chip year is incorrect and it is the same chip as the bottom. The color of the top chip looks darker, but that could be due to heavy usage/aging or a difference in scanning equipment.

Chip guide:

Lucky for us, David Sarles has been uploading some of the Burt Record cards to the Chip Guide. Per the Burt record cards, the split chips are referred to as "slotted". The below cards that had "slotted" $5's were made in 1965, 66, 67 and 68. You will notice that the card from 1968 mentions "spec heavy" and the other 3 do not. Does that refer to disc or brass flakes? Can you guys check to see who is on the other side of the chip? Does it match the 1968 "spec heavy" chip with Harold Smith Sr?


Chip Guide:

 

[duffman]

@gmunny My Harold's Club $5 shows Ray I. "Pappy" Smith on the other side. Here are a few more chips that appear to show brass flakes. I'm assuming the Vacation Village and the imitation Mizpah were made by ASM and the other's Burt?