Why I think NL hold em has hurt the poker scene (1 Viewer)

[TheOctagon]

Ha, tell that to Borgata and the other card rooms in AC. When Borgata opened and limit was the only game allowed they quickly out grew their room and built a new one 10 times the size. Now it’s pupetutually 1/3 full unless they have some big tournament in the back. The new Hard Rock didn’t even build a poker room!

Sadly, last time I attempted to play limit in AC was Harrah's and my god those tables were a snoozefest. Limit doesn't have to be like the slots. You can actually play a strategic, rewarding style and pick your spots. Good grief.

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Re: buyins and broken games and $$$ being the determining factor. Poker for me has always been about the competition. If my strategy is working and sound, and I'm up to the competition, the money comes. If I'm playing like a donk and my strategy stinks or maybe I'm being outplayed by far superior players, the money goes. It's not a job. It should hurt to lose, but winning also isn't going to pay my bills (Yet. Who knows what the future holds?)

Players always focusing on the monetary aspect of this fail to use their greater strategic mind - if all they see is "Well I earn X, so losing Y means I've lost out on Z" they're going to play scared. They'll play tight and boring and if the get ground out or sucked out on, well, that's the last you'll, see of them. I'm always working on ways to help people see the fun in competition before the money making opportunity. Money should be like your HP in a role playing game: you get hit, it hurts, but you can come back and buff up again. If you're out, you're only a revive away from competition.

 

[rummeraises]

57 posts in, and nobody points out the rise and fall of poker rooms falls in line with the economy.

.

Maybe it wasnt mentioned, because it seems to be common sense that the economy also plays a role in such subjects.

 

[TheOctagon]

In AC, the trend now seems to be closing of the whole casino.

Your data must be a little old. They've opened 2 since the economic downturn and they're working on reviving the Showboat.

Yes, the Ocean will close again because nobody knows how to manage that property, but the Hard Rock is on fire.

However, you only have to look as far as Philadelphia to see that the Sugarhouse's poker room rivals the size of most of those in Vegas. And the last time I was there, it was slammed.

 

[rummeraises]

I’m 44 and started playing straight poker only a few years before the boom. Started with 7stud playing with my buddy’s in-laws who had a regular game since the 50’s. I first played in casinos shortly after but it was enough to see the change. If you remember the boom had started about two years before casinos started spreading NL. I strongly believe they started NL cash because so many people just learning the game from TV didn’t completely realize the difference between the tournaments they were watching and cash poker at a casino and were asking for it. At that time I also subscribed to Card Player Magazine and from what I was reading NL was rare even among high stakes professional players even through the mid to later 2000’s.

In the 1990s,. I was a regular player in AC at the Tropicana and Taj. I regularly played $100-$200 stud with people like Ivey. During this time, Nl hold em wasnt even a hugely popular game in the casinos . For those of us that have been playing for decades, we easily see the changes, many of which are not positive changes.

 

[Old State]

57 posts in, and nobody points out the rise and fall of poker rooms falls in line with the economy.

NL isn't hurting poker. Like @APatHand points out, recreational players aren't concerned with their bankroll. I've seen large stacks wagered on a single number on a roulette wheel. They want the big payout. Gamblers flock to progressive slot machines, because they want the big payout. Players demand Bad Beat Jackpots, because they love the big payout. Powerball lotteries pull far more money than poker rooms, because of the dream of binking the big pot.

This adrenaline rush may not sit well with your old man middle-aged man attitudes, but you are not the casino's chief demographic. They are going after the younger generation - their numbers are greater than your own, and will be around longer.



I guess you are going to blame No-Limit for casinos for dumping the 3:2 payout on blackjack too? No Limit charges for increased parking fees in Vegas? Casinos are squeezing every penny, from every angle they can. It's not the fault of No Limit.

The decline of AC is related to the legalization of gambling in surrounding states. Not so much the economy. Borgata is one of the only casinos largely unaffected. A stroll through the floor looks much as it did in 2003. Where it is noticeable is in the poker room.

On a typical weekend table, at least once or twice in a 4 hour session, a person will sit down who obviously has never played. Within a few hands they are “all in” (picked that up from TV). They usually lose, get up and leave...and probably not playing poker for a while if ever. This didn’t happen with limit. They would still lose their cash just over a few hours.....and would think it was fun!

 

[TheOctagon]

dumping the 3:2 payout on blackjack too

Not as rare as it was a few years ago. AC offers 3:2 8 deck games at limits as low as $10. I was shocked, but encouraged.

 

[Old State]

Not as rare as it was a few years ago. AC offers 3:2 8 deck games at limits as low as $10. I was shocked, but encouraged.

Borgata has stuck to 3:2 but others are 6:5 and some are mixed. You really need to pay attention to the signs now days

 

[TheOctagon]

Borgata has stuck to 3:2 but others are 6:5 and some are mixed. You really need to pay attention to the signs now days

Harrah's and Tropicana still offer 3:2 at low limits. But, yes, you have to check the signs - they're not all juicy tables like they used to be.

 

[Old State]

Harrah's and Tropicana still offer 3:2 at low limits. But, yes, you have to check the signs - they're not all juicy tables like they used to be.

Last I was at Harrahs (in July) they had both...and they were sneakily inter dispersed among each other.


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The “cool” factor is really what prevents limit from coming back. That and ignorance on exactly what it is. TV made NL seem the rule when at the time it was the exception.

They need to make a movie about this story. That may help make limit “cool” again
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Professor,_the_Banker,_and_the_Suicide_King

 

[rummeraises]

On a typical weekend table, at least once or twice in a 4 hour session, a person will sit down who obviously has never played. Within a few hands they are “all in” (picked that up from TV). They usually lose, get up and leave...and probably not playing poker for a while if ever. This didn’t happen with limit. They would still lose their cash just over a few hours.....and would think it was fun!

Correct ! Limit poker allowed the weaker players, to play longer and keep the games running longer. Weaker players got much more bang for their buck in the limit games . The nature of NL hold em, is one where you are often faced with extreme gambling options, like risking your whole stack preflop on coin flip hands. Limit poker did not create such scenarios that are so risky and such a crapshoot . You go all in preflop with Nl hold em , and the you just sit there and pray you win. as the dealer deals out 5 more cards The skilled aspects of poker to call/fold/raise are now completely throw out, when you have the all in preflop decision.

 

[Psypher1000]

The skilled aspects of poker to call/fold/raise are now completely throw out, when you have the all in preflop decision.

So you are necessarily saying that there's no skill involved in reading player behavior and/or ascertaining any information at all about the strength of your opponent's hand when having to call or fold to a preflop all-in? Or understanding how to calculate the odds and determine if a call in such a situation is +EV? Doing those things successfully take some skill, and since "the skilled aspects of poker...are now completely throw (sic) out" in that situation you're saying those skills are either inapplicable or irrelevant in that situation, right? Or maybe you're saying that completing those tasks successfully don't actually require any skill?

 

[TheOctagon]

Last I was at Harrahs (in July) they had both...and they were sneakily inter dispersed among each other.

Last time I even considered playing blackjack at Harrah's I approached a 3:2 table while two shifty looking fellas playing multiple spots mean-mugged me until I walked away in disgust.

Way off-topic, sorry guys.

 

[APatHand]

Last time I even considered playing blackjack at Harrah's I approached a 3:2 table while two shifty looking fellas playing multiple spots mean-mugged me until I walked away in disgust.

Way off-topic, sorry guys.

Have a couple bean burritos, wait a while, and return to the game to exact your revenge.

 

[APatHand]

Looking at Nevada:
1992 - 92 rooms with 564 tables
2002 - 57 rooms with 386 tables
2008 - 113 rooms with 913 tables
2012 - 99 rooms with 809 tables
2018 - 62 rooms with 599 tables

Poker was dying, nlhe gave it a reprieve, which is now fading.

Personally, I've already spent enough of my life sharing a table with enmiserated limit stud regs who would rather shart broken glass than tip a waitress, but that's probably just me.

This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Seriously, if you have more granular data on poker room openings and closings over time including enough info to geographically locate them, I am closely associated with a group of geographic data scientists that might be able to turn that days into something interesting.
Specifically, I would be interested in how the spread of legal gaming, over time, has affected poker. Something like that.

 

[Anthony Martino]

The lottery changed their system to ensure jackpots were harder to hit, which resulted in bigger prize pools, which resulted in more people playing, which resulted in bigger prize pools.

Look, I'm no fan of a lot of things that happen with casinos and poker rooms. I've stopped playing a lot of local tournaments (I have four rooms close by in the Tampa area) because every motherfucker is spreading unlimited rebuys for 9-11 levels, it's just ridiculous to me. I prefer freezeouts, so I'm voting with my wallet and not participating.

And while I love fixed-limit mixed-games, there's only a little of that available in my area, and usually on a schedule that doesn't fit in with my work schedule.

I can't be mad NL Hold Em, there's plenty of money to be made playing it, and I enjoy it as well. And the rooms are going to spread what people want to play. If enough people come together and want a game of 7-card stud, it'll get spread.

I also can't stand the amount of additional "rake" that comes out of bad beat prize pools (oh, we have to take an administrative fee out of this for sitting on hundreds of thousands of your dollars for months), or how some rooms will award tickets into other tournaments for high hands, first five flushes, etc. during their weekly tournies (and in the process take 25% of the frigging prize pool out in doing so!)

But guess what? Enough idiots put up with it, so the rooms keep doing it. Vote with your wallets and if enough people do that, it forces them to change.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Correct ! Limit poker allowed the weaker players, to play longer and keep the games running longer. Weaker players got much more bang for their buck in the limit games . The nature of NL hold em, is one where you are often faced with extreme gambling options, like risking your whole stack preflop on coin flip hands. Limit poker did not create such scenarios that are so risky and such a crapshoot . You go all in preflop with Nl hold em , and the you just sit there and pray you win. as the dealer deals out 5 more cards The skilled aspects of poker to call/fold/raise are now completely throw out, when you have the all in preflop decision.

I personally love Pot Limit stud8, it's a shame they don't ever spread it in casinos...

 

[trever]

Complete strawman reply and pure bullshit. You insinuate that all limit stud players are so cheap they wont tip and that NL hold em players are the perfect example of charity and tipping. Do you believe your own bullshit ? I sure dont.



No im not , but it seems like there are a lot of people on this forum,. who like to make baseless strawman arguments.

Is is a caricature, but it isn't bullshit or a strawman.
1. The data I presented does not support your hypothesis, please either present better data or revise your hypothesis.
2. My hypothesis is:
People gamble for fun + profit and will play whatever maximizes that value.
If something is a huge amount of fun (PCF meetups) people don't mind a negative profit.
If something is very profitable (grinding limit poker against weak opposition) they accept it if it isn't very fun.

If games are both unpleasant personally AND unprofitable (i.e. the typical experience for a casual casino patron trying limit poker), nobody wants to play. That is why limit stud died - people found a better way to gamble.

It is also why nlhe is fading. In the early days you were a God if you knew basic ABC play and the tables were a real life slot machine with happy tourists randomly pushing chips back and forth. Today the good players vastly outclass the tourists virtually eliminating any profit for the casual player and the carnival atmosphere is gone.

Find a way to make a game fun and friendly and you will fill a room easily. Just remember to tip your waitress.

 

[trever]

This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Seriously, if you have more granular data on poker room openings and closings over time including enough info to geographically locate them, I am closely associated with a group of geographic data scientists that might be able to turn that days into something interesting.
Specifically, I would be interested in how the spread of legal gaming, over time, has affected poker. Something like that.

WTF?

 

[APatHand]

WTF?

Which part?

 

[rummeraises]

I

If games are both unpleasant personally AND unprofitable (i.e. the typical experience for a casual casino patron trying limit poker), nobody wants to play. That is why limit stud died - people found a better way to gamble.

Disagree....stud and hi lo stud, also died off because of Tv glamorizing NL hold em, and making people think they will become rich like Moneymaker.

I can assure you , that limit stud is NOT a unprofitable game . I made a living on $25-50 stud back in the 1990s. So I am living proof that your conjectures are false. Sorry.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I can assure you , that limit stud is NOT a unprofitable game . I made a living on $25-50 stud back in the 1990s. So I am living proof that your conjectures are false. Sorry.

Times change. You have to look at a LOT of different factors, including but not limited to:

1. Economic changes and how that impacted peoples disposable income and available time to gamble

2. Changes in interests as new generations grow up (kids these days seem more focused on striking it rich via viral videos / social media success rather than gambling)

3. Introduction of online gambling and how that affected poker

4. Changes in tournament poker from freezeouts to rebuys and re-entries and how that gave a further edge to those with deep-pockets over amateurs

5. Scandals in the poker world that included well-known poker pros and large gaming companies

6. And of course the switch from fixed-limit to a more predominantly no-limit or pot-limit atmosphere


there's probably tons I'm missing. And while NL Hold Em has obviously had a big impact on the poker ecosystem, I don't feel like poker is dead at all. There are still plenty of people that suck at poker. It's just not publicized or as popular as it was on tv back in the mid 2000's, as the new generations interests have shifted so the mass audience appeal isn't there as much as it once was.

Hell, for PC gaming, I'm a HUGE fan of turn-based strategy games. But there was a push towards real-time strategy that became more popular. I can still find some great turn-based games, but they aren't as prolific as they once were. Likewise, first-person shooters have evolved and the current craze are the "Battle Royale" style battles now.

Times change, interests change, and as we grow older it's easy to long for what once was, it's much harder to adapt and overcome the changes.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

The Clown God loves a good schemengie and a double schemengie even more. That is why you see so many of them.

Well at least somebody loves me.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Florida has the same rule as many other states. Except for a couple of Native American casinos, our poker rooms are all associated with parimutuels, and state rules require that 100% of jackpot drops are paid back to players.

I'm not a huge fan of the extra rake, and I've paid more into it than I've taken out in HHJs over the years, but it does have the benefit of bringing out the worst players on weekends when the payouts are highest.

The down side is that Saturday waiting lists at my local room were getting so long that they started running ten-handed games during peak hours.

 

[BGinGA]

Saturday waiting lists at my local room

Yep, sounds like poker is hurting.... those damn wait lists......

 

[Old State]

Limit poker died because 99% of poker players who started after 2003 don’t even understand what it is. And that is because they learned poker from TV. The dipiction of tournament poker as the norm also impacted things as people learned poker in that form first.

I think Rounders was a better influence on poker than WPT and WSOP. The latter was always heavily edited to just show the craziest hands....which lead to people playing like that and losing a lot of money. At least in Rounders they portray the game in a realistic context; most of the movie is FL games and only the beginning and final game are NL. The narrator also accurately (for the time) describes NL cash as game most pros even avoid.

I remember trying to explain the limit betting to a person a few years ago and thinking to myself how crazy it was that I had to explain this. TV poker and the boom did help introduce millions of new players but it also introduced a lot of new types of players. Many of which were more into the game because they simply thought it was cool. Those people are pretty much gone now. Unfortunately a lot TV poker goofiness still survives...like playing with 200 chips in front of every player

Yep, sounds like poker is hurting.... those damn wait lists......

You used to have to wait up to two hours to get a table at Borgata. I haven’t waited more than 5 minutes in years.

 

[Poker Zombie]

o you are necessarily saying that there's no skill involved in reading player behavior and/or ascertaining any information at all about the strength of your opponent's hand when having to call or fold to a preflop all-in?

In multiple posts he has mentioned how he was doing extremely well at Limit. Clearly, he does not have the skill (or intestinal fortitude) to continue making a living, because No Limit is more appealing to the masses.

I like both Limit and No Limit. I don't make a living (or even a profit) from playing poker, so I have no vested interest in one or the other. I prefer No Limit, because it's more exciting to me, but I have been places where the only open seats were at Limit tables so that's where I'll sit (Limit is more fun than sitting on the waitlist).

I don't think NLHE is hurting poker. I think people prefer it. Three NLHE tables fill faster than one Limit table. If you dont see rooms as busy, it's because players aren't shoving the same 20 chips around the table. People bust more often in NLHE. That doesn't mean that they won't come back, it means that they are done for tonight and now a seat is open.

 

[APatHand]

I find it coincidental, that since NL hold em took over , many casinos have closed their poker rooms . In Tunica we used to have over a dozen casinos, all of them had poker rooms full of numerous poker games . Now , there are only 2 casinos left, that have a poker room, and they usually only have a few tables running , with just NL hold em.

I understand there may be other factors that are causing poker rooms to be closed down in the casinos, but I feel NL hold em is part of the reason.

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[APatHand]

In multiple posts he has mentioned how he was doing extremely well at Limit. Clearly, he does not have the skill (or intestinal fortitude) to continue making a living, because No Limit is more appealing to the masses.

I like both Limit and No Limit. I don't make a living (or even a profit) from playing poker, so I have no vested interest in one or the other. I prefer No Limit, because it's more exciting to me, but I have been places where the only open seats were at Limit tables so that's where I'll sit (Limit is more fun than sitting on the waitlist).

I don't think NLHE is hurting poker. I think people prefer it. Three NLHE tables fill faster than one Limit table. If you dont see rooms as busy, it's because players aren't shoving the same 20 chips around the table. People bust more often in NLHE. That doesn't mean that they won't come back, it means that they are done for tonight and now a seat is open.

I used to be the best buggy wheel repairman in the West. Damn cars.

 

[rummeraises]

Correlation does not imply causation.

Those words are above my education. Im just a fool or a troll { according to a few posters on here} . Please speak in plainer and simpler English for me. :}

 

[TheOctagon]

The dipiction of tournament poker as the norm also impacted things as people learned poker in that form first.

I'm glad a lot of my former poker playing casual buddies stopped in 2005-6. They were getting downright annoying with their pickup sit n gos with whack denoms, bad payouts, and generally no cadence to the game whatsoever.