$1/$2 NLHE: Small Flush on the End (1 Viewer)

[Jimulacrum]

Hero has been on a decent little run. Little bit of up and down, currently sitting behind about $500. Lots of remarks from the table about my aggression, probably because most of them play too passively and don't bet large enough. I actually haven't been too over-aggressive, but I've been preflop raising on the large side ($12–$15) because people have been calling that much. In this collection of great legal minds, there isn't a single real card player.

Hero is BB and covers Villain in CO, who has about $200 and is the only relevant player in the spot in question. He hasn't been at the table long, but I've played with Villain a number of times. He is a typical "gotta play to win" type of guy, Asian gambler (passive variety), plays enough to be comfortable and experienced, but is not very good at poker.

Only other major hand this session was a straddle pot where I flopped the second-nut straight with 69 on my straddle, T87 board. I bet $15, he raised to $50, I made it $100 straight, and he shoved for $161 total with T7o. (I called and he spiked a T, if that matters to you.) He likes to see a lot of flops, raised or not, but seems like he tends not to get aggressive unless he has something.

Pot is straddled to $5. MP calls, Villain calls, Hero makes a loose call for $3 with , and UTG checks his straddle. Pot is $17 (after rake and drop).

Flop comes . Hero decides to take advantage of people's pot-size obliviousness and bets $10, everyone else folds, and Villain calls. Pot is $35.

Turn is . Hero bets $15, Villain calls. Pot is $64

River is , completing the flush. Hero … ?

 

[ushallnotraise]

What I'm most curious about is you're betting a draw but then unsure of what to do when you get there. Given the line you've taken, bet 50, hope to get called, collect money, fuck bitches.

 

[Jimulacrum]

What I'm most curious about is you're betting a draw but then unsure of what to do when you get there. Given the line you've taken, bet 50, hope to get called, collect money, fuck bitches.

The question here is mostly how much to bet, or whether to go for a check-raise.

 

[ushallnotraise]

The question here is mostly how much to bet, or whether to go for a check-raise.

Bet. Don't get fancy about it. There's absolutely no need to.

 

[Chicken Rob]

I agree. Bet. Based on pot size id want to bet $75, but you're probably not getting called unless you're beat. Unless you think he'll call $75 with less because of your aggressive style.

Otherwise I like a$50 bet here.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Okay, so I probably should've bet a little bigger. When the spade hit, I was thinking about how much of a scare card it is and decided to go with a small "pay me" kind of bet.

Hero bets $25. (Honestly, it might have been $30, but my memory of the exact amount is slightly fuzzy.) Villain quickly announces "All-in." From eyeballing his stack, the total bet is about $160 or $170.

Hero immediately says, "C'mon, that wasn't very nice!" to him. Villain doesn't really respond, and Hero tanks for about 10 seconds. Then the player to Hero's left jokingly puts forward a stack of $100+ in reds as if he's calling, just to be funny or something. Villain smiles and makes an animated pot-scooping kind of gesture, like "Yeah, yeah, gimme that," but then goes back to being quiet.

Hero … ?

 

[ushallnotraise]

Around 120 in pot, 140 to call. I think it's a call here. Villain may have a bigger flush, but if he's an Asian maniac 2p is a reasonable hand to have, too.

You should have bet 50 on river, 25 is wayyyyy too small, it also would have made river decision way easier when villain shoves.

Overall I don't like the line of this hand at all though. Not a fan of the preflop call, not a fan of betting a weak flush draw oop into 3 people(especially with no redraws), bet sizing on turn is way too small, bet sizing on river is way too small.

As played it's still a call.

 

[Chicken Rob]

You have the 4th nuts. I honestly think you're beat here based on your earlier description of his behavior and the fact that most fish fear flushes more than straights. This spot sucks. I'd need to be in the moment to decide between call and fold. This doesn't feel like 2pr. This feels like a better flush, as described.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

You said he's passive, right? I assume then he's not the type to bluff a supposed scare card, and he probably would have called you down with a flush draw, rather than raise earlier with a draw. I'm probably folding here when I'm playing well, and calling when I'm not. I suppose he could be jamming with a set or QT, not thinking that you have a flush, but I'll give him credit here.

 

[Adam Crowley]

The question here is mostly how much to bet, or whether to go for a check-raise.

I hope I didn't miss this information in a previous post

Is Villain the kind of player that thinks one dimensionally and reads a check here as a sign that you are scared of flush?

Given description of his play style I would bet quite large on the river as a flush is a super small part of your range. Vs Asian players you could be betting aggresive with a hand like AQ of KQ and I would still expect a hero call from a J vs most aisian gamblers.

The river is player dependent. My instinct is snap fold. You would need information that a passive player would turn 2p or sets into a bluff (thinking he is value towning you).

I don't see any missed draws where he can rep the flush except some one of KQ/KT hand.

The only other option is he has a smaller flush and is expecting you to bet call the river with 2p or Broadway or something.

 

[Bradcorn]

Great spot for a bet fold. I snap fold to the shove, no way he is bluffing

 

[Jimulacrum]

My reaction to his raise, thinking in a level 1 kind of way, was to fold. A small flush kinda shrinks up to a big raise. But I actually tanked (probably 30 seconds or so, which is like a month for me at $1/$2 NLHE) and took time to think about how wide his range was going into the river.

He could have any of a wide range of flushes—including flushes that beat me and flushes that I beat. His preflop range is quite wide enough, especially in a limped pot. I do think he might raise with a flush-pair combo draw like JsXs, especially if the X is a T or Q.

I don't think he has QT, as we'd have probably seen a raise on the turn from that. Aces up like AK, A6, AJ are probably out too, as I think we'd have seen a raise preflop or on the flop/turn. But any two pair made with the 7 is still in (K7, A7, J7, 67), plus maybe KJ. He might also have a pair of jacks or kings with a straight draw that missed, and the raise was a desperation shove over what looked like a weak bet from me.

I gave the T7 vs 69 example from earlier in the session specifically to point out that he tends to overvalue made hands even with a threat of a pat hand out there. In that hand, he really should've gotten away for his $50 raise, but instead he put in the remaining $111 against a very strong reraise—in a limped pot where J9 or 69 could easily be out there—because, hey, "Why not?" (His words.)

There's also the question of his raise size. It's a really big raise over a $25 bet, more than 6 times my bet. He could have easily made it up or down of $75 and gotten a call from a lot of hands that would fold for more. My line should not look that strong, especially with my small bet on the end. Why so much?

Finally, his speech (or lack thereof) and body language. He didn't seem strong. I don't put too much weight on this, but it was hard to ignore. A ten-high flush or better should feel super-confident, especially after I've been tanking and expressing dismay at his raise, but I'm not sensing a lot of confidence from his end of the table.

TLDR, Results: I think "Fuck it" to myself, verbally announce "Call," and flip up my cards. He mucks and says he had two pair, which is really weird IMO, but like I said, this guy isn't much of a player. He left after this hand.

I think that's the major detail I wasn't considering enough in my quick at-the-table analysis, but that tipped me to a call after all. This guy is a pretty bad player and really doesn't think through hands before he makes plays. He just plays anything even remotely tolerable and sees what he can catch, and if he "feels good" about it, he gets over-invested. He especially might not be able to resist the urge to raise with something like A7 or K7 when it improves to two pair on the river. (Like, how are you gonna draw all the way to the end and then only call a small bet when you catch?)

I kinda regret tabling so fast now, as I wish I knew what his cards were, but I suppose it's okay to let him muck and quietly scurry away too.

 

[Jimulacrum]

As to my play on earlier streets, yeah, mega-loose call preflop, but the table texture had been opening up so many profitable opportunities that I was trying to see tons of cheap flops with certain players. The MP guy who limped was one of those players. He was sitting about $200 or so deep and would pay off almost anything. If I were to flop two pair or better, he'd likely pay me off to the river with almost anything playable. I could also count on the straddler to not raise behind me unless he was holding something legitimately strong. Seemed like a decent upside for a $3 call.

I bet the flop and turn mostly because doing so allowed me to control the bet size (1/2 pot, less than 1/2 pot) and make the flush unexpected if I did hit it. After all, my alternative line would be cbeck/call anyway, which might cost more, would make my flush more obvious, and would have 0 fold equity.

 

[Chicken Rob]

As to my play on earlier streets, yeah, mega-loose call preflop, but the table texture had been opening up so many profitable opportunities that I was trying to see tons of cheap flops with certain players. The MP guy who limped was one of those players. He was sitting about $200 or so deep and would pay off almost anything. If I were to flop two pair or better, he'd likely pay me off to the river with almost anything playable. I could also count on the straddler to not raise behind me unless he was holding something legitimately strong. Seemed like a decent upside for a $3 call.

I bet the flop and turn mostly because doing so allowed me to control the bet size (1/2 pot, less than 1/2 pot) and make the flush unexpected if I did hit it. After all, my alternative line would be cbeck/call anyway, which might cost more, would make my flush more obvious, and would have 0 fold equity.

I really read you for way behind in that spot. Seems like a good call in the end.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I really read you for way behind in that spot. Seems like a good call in the end.

In a results-oriented kind of way. You're right that it was one of those spots where it's hard to make a decision without being there. Even being there, it was the toughest decision of the night for me.

I'm extra-glad I made the call because this is a really solid piece of information to have on this player, who donates a lot at $1/$2 at this spot (The River, Milford). Knowing what I know now, giving him credit for big hands on the end would be a huge mistake.

 

[ushallnotraise]

I really read you for way behind in that spot. Seems like a good call in the end.

A loose Asian at 1/2 raises flop with a better fd 95% of the time, that's why I think it was 2p and not a flush

 

[Jimulacrum]

A loose Asian at 1/2 raises flop with a better fd 95% of the time, that's why I think it was 2p and not a flush

This guy is usually passive when he has nothing made, but it is worth noting that a better FD in this spot would necessarily be a combo draw as of the turn (either a pair of jacks or a gutshot, or both, not to mention royal draws and for the nuclear warhead hand).

Passive though he may be, I could see him possibly raising the better parts of that sub-range, especially with me only betting $15, while he'd almost certainly only flat any smaller flush draw.

 

[ushallnotraise]

This guy is usually passive when he has nothing made, but it is worth noting that a better FD in this spot would necessarily be a combo draw as of the turn (either a pair of jacks or a gutshot, or both, not to mention royal draws). Passive though he may be, I could see him possibly raising the better parts of that sub-range, especially with me only betting $15.

That makes sense, bet sizing makes something like JsTs a very possible option.

 

[Adam Crowley]

I agree his hand is most likely 2p hands and some one pair with Broadway draws. It's just that it takes a fairly terrible player to turn their hand into a bluff on this river card.

Ignoring results completely, I think the call is fantastic. the way you broke down his decision making process and applied the information available was pretty impressive.

In your mind did you think he was capable of turning 2p into a bluff here?

 

[GoStumpy]

I would be more inclined to think he has a good 2 pair than a flush or something that beats us here....

 

[Jimulacrum]

I agree his hand is most likely 2p hands and some one pair with Broadway draws. It's just that it takes a fairly terrible player to turn their hand into a bluff on this river card.

Ignoring results completely, I think the call is fantastic. the way you broke down his decision making process and applied the information available was pretty impressive.

In your mind did you think he was capable of turning 2p into a bluff here?

Somewhere in the back of my mind, yeah. I mean, he did something similar on the 69 vs. T7 hand earlier in the session. He waited for what looked like a good spot and shoveled all of his chips in, even after the spot went from decent-looking to horrible. (I bet $15, MP called, Villain raised to $50, I raised to $100, MP folded. In what universe is top and bottom pair ahead there?)

Of course, I'm probably never paying off the river raise in the OP hand with anything that's beaten by two pair, but he doesn't know that. Hell, I don't think my likely calling range crossed his mind, or else he wouldn't have raised.

 

[Ellasdaddy]

Ignoring results completely, I think the call is fantastic. the way you broke down his decision making process and applied the information available was pretty impressive.

This. Especially after the other hand of note, not betting and snap folding is to be applauded.

 

[Jimulacrum]

One more thing:

Hero immediately says, "C'mon, that wasn't very nice!" to him. Villain doesn't really respond, and Hero tanks for about 10 seconds. Then the player to Hero's left jokingly puts forward a stack of $100+ in reds as if he's calling, just to be funny or something. Villain smiles and makes an animated pot-scooping kind of gesture, like "Yeah, yeah, gimme that," but then goes back to being quiet.

What do you all think of this? Acceptable, a little out of line, way out of line?

Villain's response didn't really factor much into my decision, but other players noted afterward that Villain may have tipped his hand strength by acting like he was eager for a call. Regardless of that, though, it could have affected my thinking, and that doesn't seem too fair to me. Banter between heads-up players is fine, but that stunt from the straddler could've really screwed Villain over. (Suppose he was looking away for a moment, then looked back, saw the chips, and tabled his hand thinking they were my chips.)

I'm glad nothing like that happened, 'cause it could've been ugly.

 

[jbutler]

One more thing:



What do you all think of this? Acceptable, a little out of line, way out of line?

Villain's response didn't really factor much into my decision, but other players noted afterward that Villain may have tipped his hand strength by acting like he was eager for a call. Regardless of that, though, it could have affected my thinking, and that doesn't seem too fair to me. Banter between heads-up players is fine, but that stunt from the straddler could've really screwed Villain over. (Suppose he was looking away for a moment, then looked back, saw the chips, and tabled his hand thinking they were my chips.)

I'm glad nothing like that happened, 'cause it could've been ugly.

Out of line but absolutely not something you should make an issue of imo. You want to be in a game where people feel free to do dumb shit like that. The atmosphere of friendliness and dumb gambling it creates far outweighs the detriment such as what might have been suffered here.

 

[Ellasdaddy]

Way out of line. I'd let him have it and hopefully get the entire table on his case for that, after the hand. Could turn a profitable hand into a disaster at any time.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Out of line but absolutely not something you should make an issue of imo. You want to be in a game where people feel free to do dumb shit like that. The atmosphere of friendliness and dumb gambling it creates far outweighs the detriment such as what might have been suffered here.

Way out of line. I'd let him have it and hopefully get the entire table on his case for that, after the hand. Could turn a profitable hand into a disaster at any time.

I'm siding with butler on this one. Keep the fish happy. Keep a festive mood at the table. Don't be a rule nit to your own disadvantage.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I felt the same way, that it was out of line but that making a thing out of it would dampen the gambling spirit of the game.

That player was in a good mood and was super-friendly most of the night. He was especially friendly with me and openly praised how I was playing a few times, even calling me "Kid Poker" and genuinely apologizing when he doubled up with a set vs. my aces up.

I think he maybe just got carried away with the playful vibe of the game for a moment. Not worth chastising him about or anything. Villain might not have been too happy about it, but, well, he was on his way home.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Agree with all points, the only thing that I would address at the table is if two players are in be hand. A skilled player out of the hand either verbally or by an action gives his opinion as to the correct decision someone should make eg. Two players at showdown player 1 overbets pot, player 2 in the tank, good player out of the hand says "I would snap call he's obviously bluffing" or does the same thing by shoving his chips in the middle etc

Edit: I discourage this action at my games regardless of my opinion of the skill level of any of the players so that no one feels like they were disadvantages or cheated out of money.

 

[ushallnotraise]

It's slightly out of line but not a big deal at all. Something to ignore.

 

[BGinGA]

I'd make light of the situation as it occurs, but publicly note afterwards that although humorous, it's probably not a good idea and could possibly create unfair situation for one or both of the players in the hand. No need to get upset, but no reason to ignore it, either -- left unchecked, it could create an ugly situation in the future.