2/5 Hand at Bellagio (4 Viewers)

[MrCatPants]

Just got back from a Vegas trip. Only had time for a single poker session - sat down at a 2/5 game at the Bellagio. About 5 hours into the session I'm effectively treading water. One of those days where all my draws are missing, all my opponents draws are coming in so I'm starting to get a little antsy. Also, have to head out in less than an hour to go to a family event.

8 handed on this one:

SB- younger guy, when stacked twice on strong pre-flop holdings that he can't lay down on bad flops - $400
BB - younger guy, talks like a "poker dork", $700
UTG + 1 - OMC type, barely know he's there - $400
UTG + 2 - New local pro, been sun-running most of the session, aggressive opener and 3-bettor - $2000
MP (HERO) - Tight image, hasn't shown down more than 3 hands, but did lose all three of those hero calls - $450
CO - Drunk maniac who has been very active and somehow winning - $900
HJ - Tight-ish ABC player. seems to think he's getting bluffed more often than he is - $300
BTN - OMC type, barely know he's there - $600

UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 opens to $20
Hero looks down at .

Action on Hero.

 

[stellrnebula]

Mixing between 3betting and flatting - 3betting a bit more than flatting. Never folding.

 

[boltonguy]

Based on your time at the table:
- if you call how many will call behind?
- if you 3! to $60 how many will call behind?

I'm leaning towards calling here but curious about the dynamics.

 

[MrCatPants]

Based on your time at the table:
- if you call how many will call behind?
- if you 3! to $60 how many will call behind?

I'm leaning towards calling here but curious about the dynamics.

Maniac is probably 50/50 on folding to the 3 bet. 90% calling on the flat.

It's been generally 3 or less to the flop with an open. Never seen more than 3 in a 3 bet pot. 3 betting has been rare - only hero and UTG + 1 have done it more than once or twice.

 

[boltonguy]

Based on your description of +2 as "opening aggressively" meaning opening wide and the opportunity to get a fold or get this HUP IP, I'll 3! to $60
If V calls you'll have to play cautiously as your top pair can be outkicked by AQ/KQ/AJ/KJ and your flush draws are not to the nuts.
If he's opening wide and there isn't a lot of 3! let's hope it folds around. But I bet it doesn't as that wouldn't be much of a thread ...

 

[Highli99]

If it was diamonds I’d advocate a 3 bet but clubs are unlucky so I suggest folding pre.

 

[JMC9389]

Flat call/fold to a three or four bet.

 

[MrCatPants]

I think most of the possible thoughts are out there now, so will continue...

SB- younger guy, when stacked twice on strong pre-flop holdings that he can't lay down on bad flops - $400
BB - younger guy, talks like a "poker dork", $700
UTG + 1 - OMC type, barely know he's there - $400
UTG + 2 - New local pro, been sun-running most of the session, aggressive opener and 3-bettor - $2000
MP (HERO) - Tight image, hasn't shown down more than 3 hands, but did lose all three of those hero calls - $450
CO - Drunk maniac who has been very active and somehow winning - $900
HJ - Tight-ish ABC player. seems to think he's getting bluffed more often than he is - $300
BTN - OMC type, barely know he's there - $600

UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 opens to $20
Hero looks down at .

Hero thinks for a bit as he does not like this spot in this position and then CALLS.
CO CALLS
Folds to BB, who CALLS

Pot is $82.

Flop comes

BB checks
UTG + 2 downbets to $25
Action on Hero.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Odd bet size. Have you seen him do this before? Blocker bet or feigning weakness (hoping to 3! a raise)?

I would raise for information (and value) here. If he is on a FD, don't give him a cheap draw. (Caveat: This is coming from someone who doesn't consider himself a very good player).

 

[MrCatPants]

Odd bet size. Have you seen him do this before? Blocker bet or feigning weakness (hoping to 3! a raise)?

I would raise for information (and value) here. If he is on a FD, don't give him a cheap draw. (Caveat: This is coming from someone who doesn't consider himself a very good player).

He definitely alters his bet sizing situationally. Unsure if this is a probing c-bet, naming his price for the next card, or a hand that's hoping to induce a raise.

 

[LotsOfChips]

You have been treading water for 5 hours, folded almost every hand so far, just flopped top 2 pair, and have to leave in less than an hour. Seems to me this is the Poker Gods telling you to find a way to get all of your money (and 1/4 of his) into the pot.

Only question is how to do that.

Raise now to see if he 3! (and 4! or jam if he does), You also want to get rid of the pesky CO behind you.

(Easy for me to say, not my money...)

 

[colter ripton]

Id make it 125

 

[Legend5555]

Odd bet size. Have you seen him do this before? Blocker bet or feigning weakness (hoping to 3! a raise)?

I would raise for information (and value) here. If he is on a FD, don't give him a cheap draw. (Caveat: This is coming from someone who doesn't consider himself a very good player).

He definitely alters his bet sizing situationally. Unsure if this is a probing c-bet, naming his price for the next card, or a hand that's hoping to induce a raise.

It's not a weird bet size for a good pro. I'm multiway pots you usually bet smaller because of multiway responsibility. That's the idea that the other players, specifically the guy(s) in the middle, can't really just call with anything less that top pair because he has to worry about the 3rd guy. So villain can get away with smaller bet sizes with his draws, and to balance that, he needs to make the same sizing with his good hands as well.

And the fact that villain is even betting this board into three other players should say a lot about the strength of his hand. A smaller bet gets much the same results as a larger one.

Additionally, when one of the other players has less than 100bb, villain doesn't need to bet large to get the money in by the river. Imagine you just call and others fold. Then the pot will be $132. You have $400 behind. He can bet $100 on turn and $300 on river (into a pot of $330 assuming you called). He can even size up to closer to pot on turn and bet even less on the river.

So it's not that weird a sizing.

Given the board texture, you have to raise. Even though this will say a lot about your hand to everyone else given there are still 2 people to act behind you. As I see it, you have a couple options:

1. Raise big to like $125 and jam the turn for around pot. Board is draw heavy, villain isn't going to fold a good draw to any raise that isn't all in. This offers you maximum protection but probably at the cost of some EV.

2. Raise to about $75-85 and look to bet turn for around 40-50% pot, and jam river for about 40%.

Neither option is really optimal because your stack size makes it such that you are either going to have to bet really big twice (which people will fold to more often), or really small 3 times (which doesn't protect your equity that well).

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

For reasons already stated by @Legend5555 I raise to $125 and shove turn here.
You get called by tons of straight/flush draws, top pairs and overpairs from utg+1.
Time to pile the money in.

 

[boltonguy]

I raise to $85.

Thinking about +1 range. He is uncapped so it includes AA (6)/KK (6)/AK (16) and one combo each of QQ(1)/JJ(1). It also includes suited Aces/Broadway that are drawing to a flush. Does he have pocket 5s? I dont think he should opening in +1 at an 8 handed table.
While he has the nut advantage here, it is slim as you block Q/J and you are well ahead of his other holdings.
HUP I would bet large as you are likely well ahead on this dynamic board and want to build the pot & deny equity.

However you have two more callers behind, neither of which probably have QQ/JJ but 55 is very possibly out there as it is probably in their calling ranges in LP.
There are probably a number of FDs, possibly straight and combo draws like JsTs, etc. against which you have little to no fold equity and may get raised.
So multi-way I would make it a touch smaller. There is just more risk with two more players behind. More possibility to get raised and have to play a pot with a low SPR OOP. HUP IP I would definitely advocate for the larger size.

 

[grebe]

Just got back from a Vegas trip. Only had time for a single poker session - sat down at a 2/5 game at the Bellagio. About 5 hours into the session I'm effectively treading water. One of those days where all my draws are missing, all my opponents draws are coming in so I'm starting to get a little antsy. Also, have to head out in less than an hour to go to a family event.

8 handed on this one:

SB- younger guy, when stacked twice on strong pre-flop holdings that he can't lay down on bad flops - $400
BB - younger guy, talks like a "poker dork", $700

UTG + 2 - New local pro, been sun-running most of the session, aggressive opener and 3-bettor - $2000
MP (HERO) - Tight image, hasn't shown down more than 3 hands, but did lose all three of those hero calls - $450
CO - Drunk maniac who has been very active and somehow winning - $900
HJ - Tight-ish ABC player. seems to think he's getting bluffed more often than he is - $300
BTN - OMC type, barely know he's there - $600

UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 opens to $20
Hero looks down at .

Action on Hero.

3! to $65

 

[grebe]

I think most of the possible thoughts are out there now, so will continue...

SB- younger guy, when stacked twice on strong pre-flop holdings that he can't lay down on bad flops - $400
BB - younger guy, talks like a "poker dork", $700
UTG + 1 - OMC type, barely know he's there - $400
UTG + 2 - New local pro, been sun-running most of the session, aggressive opener and 3-bettor - $2000
MP (HERO) - Tight image, hasn't shown down more than 3 hands, but did lose all three of those hero calls - $450
CO - Drunk maniac who has been very active and somehow winning - $900
HJ - Tight-ish ABC player. seems to think he's getting bluffed more often than he is - $300
BTN - OMC type, barely know he's there - $600

UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 opens to $20
Hero looks down at .

Hero thinks for a bit as he does not like this spot in this position and then CALLS.
CO CALLS
Folds to BB, who CALLS

Pot is $82.

Flop comes

BB checks
UTG + 2 downbets to $25
Action on Hero.

Great flop. Wishing we would have 3! now. Smallish bet from the pro is probably his go-to sizing for his entire range and really means nothing. He has range advantage here, as he has all the sets and we only have 55....he has flush draws, straight draws, and can also have 2 pair.

My thinking is if we call, we are probably going to the turn 3 ways. If we raise, it's a good chance that he will fold his weaker hands and only continue with sets, top pair, and draws. Tough spot....

I say flat here with plans to raise or bet on the turn for any card that isnt a ten or spade....or maybe a 5...not sure on the 5.

 

[grebe]

Great flop. Wishing we would have 3! now. Smallish bet from the pro is probably his go-to sizing for his entire range and really means nothing. He has range advantage here, as he has all the sets and we only have 55....he has flush draws, straight draws, and can also have 2 pair.

My thinking is if we call, we are probably going to the turn 3 ways. If we raise, it's a good chance that he will fold his weaker hands and only continue with sets, top pair, and draws. Tough spot....

I say flat here with plans to raise or bet on the turn for any card that isnt a ten or spade....or maybe a 5...not sure on the 5.

I just read @Legend5555 and @boltonguy replies, so I am probably wrong here. Was hoping somebody would be on my side.

***I still like the 3! preflop though. This is an easier hand to play if we are head's up in position.

 

[boltonguy]

@grebe I absolutely agree with the 3! pre here. Now Hero is definitely wishing he had 3! pre!
And while I dont think a bet here sees better hands folding I think a lot of worse drawing hands will call.

 

[grebe]

@grebe I absolutely agree with the 3! pre here. Now Hero is definitely wishing he had 3! pre!
And while I dont think a bet here sees better hands folding I think a lot of worse drawing hands will call.

No better hands are folding, obviously. Going off Ed Miller's teachings here....draws are going to do what draws are going to do. What likely holdings can we TARGET for value? AQ seems like the best and most likely holding we can absolutely target to get value from, so how would we play against AQ? AA and KK would be the same value here, but could drastically change on the turn (with an over card or a 5). So say we know Villain has AQ....how do you play the flop then?

 

[Legend5555]

I just read @Legend5555 and @boltonguy replies, so I am probably wrong here. Was hoping somebody would be on my side.

***I still like the 3! preflop though. This is an easier hand to play if we are head's up in position.

I never discussed the pre flop play really. I think in general I prefer a 3! to isolate and avoid going multiway. But a call isn't the worst. I just think to call, I do it from later position or if I know the players behind me were tight and straightforward and not going to 3! with like A5s or JTs.

 

[boltonguy]

No better hands are folding, obviously. Going off Ed Miller's teachings here....draws are going to do what draws are going to do. What likely holdings can we TARGET for value? AQ seems like the best and most likely holding we can absolutely target to get value from, so how would we play against AQ? AA and KK would be the same value here, but could drastically change on the turn (with an over card or a 5). So say we know Villain has AQ....how do you play the flop then?

We need protection against AQ with its draws and opportunity to make a better 2 pair. HUP I raise on the larger size for value & equity denial.
Multiway - its hard to say if we know 1 V has AQ we still need to worry about the other 2 ...

 

[JoeBGo]

Flop I’d raise $75-$100. I definitely don’t want a flush draw hanging around.

 

[Legend5555]

Flop I’d raise $75-$100. I definitely don’t want a flush draw hanging around.

Well... You do. You just want to charge them.

 

[boltonguy]

Right you accrue the EV from that bet even if the flush comes in. Somewhere I have a bucket just full of EV!

 

[grebe]

OK, as played (just call preflop), I like the raise. I would do $80.

 

[AWenger]

Pot is $82.

Flop comes

BB checks
UTG + 2 downbets to $25
Action on Hero.

With top 2 pair, I'd likely most often raise the C-bet here, but I think this could be an opportunity for an alternative line -- a small percentage of the time, given there are 2 other players left behind who called pre-flop, I might get tricky and just call here to trap. I'd probably only call here if one or both of the other players behind are active, aggressive, players who might put in a raise in this spot, as they could put in a raise with top pair, a flush draw, and/or straight draw. However, if you don't know much about the players left to act, or they are mainly calling stations that don't raise, then I probably wouldn't call to trap here, and put in a raise -- make it 3x+ to $75+.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

With top 2 pair, I'd likely most often raise the C-bet here, but I think this could be an opportunity for an alternative line -- a small percentage of the time, given there are 2 other players left behind who called pre-flop, I might get tricky and just call here to trap. I'd probably only call here if one or both of the other players behind are active, aggressive, players who might put in a raise in this spot, as they could put in a raise with top pair, a flush draw, and/or straight draw. However, if you don't know much about the players left to act, or they are mainly calling stations that don't raise, then I probably wouldn't call to trap here, and put in a raise -- make it 3x+ to $75+.

Ok let's say you decide to trap the pf agressor and two other players on this board. What cards do you want to see on turn and river to actually spring your trap vs potentially 3 other players?
We don't want a spade, no 9, no 8, no A, no K. Oh and we don't want the board to pair so we don't want a 5 either. C'mon man, charge the draws and pile some money in. Raise to $125, push turn.

 

[joker80]

I raise to 115 .

 

[AWenger]

What cards do you want to see on turn and river to actually spring your trap vs potentially 3 other players?
We don't want a spade, no 9, no 8, no A, no K. Oh and we don't want the board to pair so we don't want a 5 either. C'mon man, charge the draws and pile some money in. Raise to $125, push turn.

I'm not talking about the turn. The trap would be to flat call the flop, with 2 other players left behind to act on the flop, in hopes that one of them might raise the $25 bet. If one of them has a raising hand -- that's the trap -- they could raise the flop. If we flat call the flop, one of the 2 opponents might have a real hand, and they might likely put us on a draw, and raise the flop to get the draws to pay -- (little do they know we have top 2!), and then the OP might come along and call their raise if they have a hand. It's definitely a situation-dependent and read-dependent move based on other players at the table.

Just calling the flop with 2 players behind might give the players behind us some rope to raise some of their hands (either legitimate hands or draws as a semi-bluff), where if we raised the flop, they might fold many of those hands.