A Tale Of Two Forums (2 Viewers)

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This all reminds me of the pinball sites ...... RGP (rec.games.pinball) and Pinside. Everyone was on RGP as it was the place to go for buying, selling, discussions. Then trolls came along and people started crying for a moderated site....also there were times when it randomly went down. No guarantee that it would remain much longer either. Pinside became more popular and most trolls were missing from it. However some cried that the moderators were too strict and the whole "freedom of speech" thing. RGP is still great for archives and there are a handful of old timers there (though traffic is way down), but Pinside is where most of the action is. Both sites still live together, and pot shots are taken from time to time at each, but they both do fine. I like to read RGP but have posted thousands of times on Pinside. Same is with here (though I have over 10 yrs on the other sites each), I post mostly on PCF but still browse, read, and post a few things at Chiptalk. And not to knock Chiptalk, but the UI here is way easier to read and navigate (cleaner looking)
 
I have no issue with CT. Personally when that forum got so slow and I became a moderator over here I stopped really signing on. If people want to spend time over there I hold nothing against them. Heck I like to watch FX, AMC, and History channel ;). I'm not a one station kind of guy and many people aren't a one forum type of person and that's ok.

I try to keep things respectful and not stir the pot too much.
 
Poker Zombie said:
CT still is useful as an archive site...
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Agree with this. I was just on CT last night looking for a relatively recent ceramic set that came up in PM conversation with another member.

BPTDirector said:
Jack there have not been posts recently but it's no secret the ax was ground here for quite awhile against what happened at CT that caused the exodus for member from there to totally switch to here. And it all started when things were no longer free over there and then started to fall into disrepair.

And to his credit, Tommy has not entered into any bad mouthing or competition or confrontation at all and that says a lot if good about him and his intentions for this site.

It's unfortunate, but the constant dig was there and really it was only a matter of time before the crap was goin to fly.

Neither side of that argument is 100% innocent if you look at it objectively. Divorce is never pretty.

I like this site a lot and have a lot of people here I know and that know me and hope to see it continue to do well.

I felt Dave did slightly push the envelope and was provoking a confrontation with his actions but also felt there was and is still a story I am not completely aware of that could have pushed him that way.

There is unwelcome anger between the sites that has nothing to do with Tommy however so I hope to stay welcomed here whether I said what I felt was the truth or not. We can disagree but I still like to hear what Dave has to say about chips.

Can't we just get past it and talk about chips??
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I tend to agree, Jim. But the whole last page (or 2) of that CT thread just rubbed me the wrong way. I totally agree that Dave's avatar was childish and intentionally provocative, but it wasn't "offensive". Unfortunately for Greg, he gave in to the provocation and acted childishly and irrationally himself.

As Berg stated above, CT went downhill and people jumped ship. I started to write something more expansive, but I recalled responding to Greg's email alluded to above by Poker Zombie and looking back on it, I feel exactly the same nearly a year later. I pasted it below (with the first paragraph redacted as it alluded to a personal matter which I don't recall whether he made public apart from his mass email to members he called CT's "veterans").

jbutler said:
Greg,

(FIRST PARAGRAPH REDACTED)

As to ChipTalk, I honestly have little interest in returning. I don't intend for this to be received as unduly rude criticism, but I felt perhaps my thoughts could be constructive as you move forward. I will not be offended - and indeed will have no way of knowing - if you don't care to read them, but, in any case, my comments are below.

I was supportive of your efforts to implement the supporter tiers when they were unveiled because I believed at that time that you regarded the site as a gathering place for chip aficionados of which you were one. Very quickly after that time, however, I came to believe that ChipTalk was, for you, a business venture rather than a hobby. I came to this understanding for three primary reasons: (1) the bad faith advertisement of the china clay Pharaohs; (2) your prolonged absence from the forum; and (3) your justification for implementing the supporter system, which I later came to regard as disingenuous or indicative of severe mismanagement.

A few words on each. I was soured to ChipTalk the moment I saw the china clay Pharaoh advertisement. Whatever nonsensical argument one might be tempted to make in favor of calling those chips clay, it is facially ludicrous to anyone who understands chip-making and chip collecting. That it appears on the face of what was the most vibrant chip community on the internet is simply disgusting. I believe that advertisement did and does actual damage to the community and am truly shocked that Jim Blanchard would continue to give the site any support whatsoever with those statements on the front page. I attempted to engage you on this point on the forum, but if I recall correctly, you said little to nothing in response.

Which brings me to the second point. You contributed literally nothing to the community within the past several years. I don't expect you to wade into the ridiculous debate threads and offend half (or more) of your users and I don't expect you to run up a post count similar to mine or Bergman's, but dipping your toe in the forum every once in a while would seem to be the natural act of someone truly interested in the hobby. As it was, you were the absentee host. Consider the same scenario in a raked home game. I play in several. In some, the host plays and in some, he doesn't. Those games in which the host plays, the players could not care less about the rake. They regard it as the cost of the chips/table/food/dealer/whatever. In those where the host does not play, it is regarded by the players as a business and they treat it as they would any other with little personal allegiance. ChipTalk became the raked, absentee-hosted game of chip forums, so it should come as no surprise that neither I nor many others have an interest in sticking around.

Thirdly, the money. I have spoken to more than a few people deeply involved in forum hosting and very familiar with the economics of the vbulletin system and they uniformly laughed at the idea that a forum such as ours could possibly be in the red. They positively guffawed when I told them that people ponied up $200 for memberships. Taking the words of these people, as I am no expert on the matter, I concluded that your justification for the supporter system was either disingenuous or necessary only due to incompetent site administration. In either case, I chose not to continue to support the site for the reasons above.

Finally, I was frankly shocked to see you condemn Tommy of PCF for trying to attract your sponsors and members. You ran a business. Into the ground. You neglected your sponsors. You claim now that you have made good, which might be true. Certainly it is not surprising to you, however, that sponsors who have businesses of their own to maintain might not feel justified in relying on you in the future. Hopefully it is not surprising to you that another forum might want to increase its membership when the previously dominant site appears to be disintegrating. One would think that if you are ready to accept your lumps for your inactive administration, you would not attempt to criticize members for moving to another site, but they were also targets of your harsh words.

Take the above for what its worth. Obviously I ran on quite a bit, but despite my strong feelings on those issues, I do honestly wish you the best, most enthusiastically in your personal life, but also with the site.

Best regards,
Jack
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The abomination that is the Pharaoh advertisement has been moved from the front page since the redesign, but it remains as the first post in the thread here and it is just as shameful now as it ever was. As long as that advertisement remains, I will not support CT financially and am reluctant to recommend the site to new chippers without a word of caution.

Dave's ban and Ten's posts in that thread make me only more sure of my feelings about CT.
 
I was pretty new to the site when the SHTF and have never said much because I didn't have the personal investment so many other people had, but I did appreciate CT enough when I first found it to pay for a supporter level right before everything started going down hill, so I've got a little skin in the game. Unlike you @bergs I've been a member of many different forums for a long time and while I wouldn't say that contributing to a site monetarily to get extra features is unheard of, it definitely isn't the norm (even today in the age of the "pay for more features/lives/credits" business model.). When I payed for the lowest supporter level it didn't have much to do with what I would receive in return but more just to say thanks for what I had received so far; an invite to Round Up on the Ridge (thanks again for having me in your house as a complete stranger @Redbelly !), access to vendors I never knew existed, and most importantly the knowledge and history that the site (thanks in part to the members) contained.

All that being said, when the site started having it's problems, that persisted for a lot longer than they should have imho, I got screwed on a few sales out of the classifieds by not being able to jump on a couple of things I wanted and I also had heard nothing about the "swag" I had been expecting after following the directions on how to redeem it. I was definitely a little annoyed that for only the second time in my internet life I had shelled out money to support a forum, only to have it unusable two or three weeks later. When the exodus started happening and I received a few pm's and emails from members telling me about PCF I was a little conflicted; on one hand I was happy there was a working site with familiar faces, on the other it felt personal to me from the beginning from a few people and I don't like to pile on when someone is down, like Greg seemed to be, and even as new as I was I recognized imediately the amount of knowledge and content that the people who were leaving represented. I new it wasn't good for CT to say the least and I wondered if it was justified. The very next thought however was the realization of how pissed I was that I missed out on some china clays at a good price while paying $25 and how much it must sting the long time members who have hundreds of hours and dollars invested in the site. The slap they felt must have been a whole lot stronger than the one I felt, I couldn't judge anybody's anger because it was at the very least partially justified.

I felt conflicted then and I still feel that way about the whole situation, I can't ignore the fact that from what I understand Ten had some crazy things going on in his life and then lost his father pretty suddenly. That does not excuse charging (overcharging some think) for a product and not delivering, but I can't get past that. In the month before CT had it's problems my wife and I lost 6 people (three generations) who we loved to a mudslide in Oso, a few months after that I lost my father pretty suddenly, another couple months later and it's another funeral for a friend of ours who battled cancer all her life and then died shortly after her 30th birthday. I may be being a pussy about it, but if losing his father or the situation with his kids(I feel weird speaking on another persons business but these things have all been public for a long time, if I'm out of line let me know) had even the slightest bit to do with the lack of contact from Ten as the site stated free falling then I can't hold a grudge about it. I don't think anybody did anything wrong by deciding to frequent a site that was/is a better experience (and it is, thanks for such a great site @Tommy and staff, I can't imagine it's cheap or easy), but I have always wished the animosity displayed by some wouldn't be so harsh. Ten is/has suffered enough, the decline in traffic and the natural progression to a better product is the fitting "punishment" for the crime.

I personally wish Ten all the best, same with everybody involved, and even if I have conflicted opinions there are a few things I am sure of in my mind:

  • BGs PCF avatar is/was a blatant FU to CT and Ten, and to pretend it was primarily anything else is disingenuous.
  • Tens banning of BG had nothing to do with BGs comments towards his mom, it was all about the avatar, and to pretend it was anything else is disingenuous.
  • I wish no ill will towards CT or PCF, they are both great forums and it's sad (to me) they both can't be strong, but;
  • While I do, and will in the future, read and post on both forums, PCF is where the lions share of the activity and knowledge is right now and I can't see that changing unless the feelings of some of the membership change and go back to posting on CT.

I support the right of BG to use any avatar he chooses, 100% agree with freedom of speech, but I also support the right of someone to get tired of getting the proverbial middle finger in his "house" every time he reads a post from BG. I don't think it will ultimately be a good thing to ban BG (the knowledge/contributions is/are undeniable, impressive is an understatement), but we all could see it coming a mile away, right? May not be the best course of action for now or the future, but BG was delivering a message with every post he made and Ten couldn't look past it forever.


I do love poker chips though. :D
 
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jbutler said:
The abomination that is the Pharaoh advertisement has been moved from the front page since the redesign, but it remains as the first post in the thread here and it is just as shameful now as it ever was
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So whats wrong with having those chips advertised on the site?
 
MaxB said:
So whats wrong with having those chips advertised on the site?
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They are advertised as "true clay poker chips", but are china clays. The entire advertisement is deceptive and would (and did) lead people new to the hobby to believe that the new Pharaoh line is equivalent to chips made by Paulson.
 
Kind of off topic, but real quick:

jbutler said:
The abomination that is the Pharaoh advertisement has been moved from the front page since the redesign, but it remains as the first post in the thread here and it is just as shameful now as it ever was. As long as that advertisement remains, I will not support CT financially and am reluctant to recommend the site to new chippers without a word of caution.
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Wow, this (that post) is something that has bothered me since I read it because it is so blatantly "wrong" (i could use a stronger word) that I don't know what to say, and the fact that it's written by someone who knows the difference always made me feel even weirder about it. @jbutler , does your opinion extend to a vendor that has almost the same exact wording on there site describing the china clays they sell? One of the first things you learn when you get into chips is exactly why Paulsons (and other true "clay" chips) are so special and it's all about that "clay" word, to describe china clays as "solid clay and custom molded just like a paulson" has always felt slimy to me, but I didn't want to bring it up because the "Dear Leader" type love for some of the vendors makes me feel like I could be stepping into a hornets nest. I may be talking out my ass but I have never understood why this would be accepted with out question.
 
MaxB said:
So whats wrong with having those chips advertised on the site?
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Nothing. But advertising them as "true clay" is the offending piece.

Like Jack, I went back and re-read my "Conflicted" thread I started in December of last year and feel exactly the same way about CT today. I also just got caught up on the drama and it makes me sad (once I could figure out how to navigate around again, that is...yikes) but I'm happy to have a place to talk about poker chips. CT, PCF, or anywhere. I'll stick around where the activity is and where the experience is better (in my eyes...yeah, I know: "experience is what you make it...yadda yadda yadda :)).

For now I'll grab the popcorn, butter, and salt and get back to poker chips.
 
12thMan said:
@jbutler , does your opinion extend to a vendor that has almost the same exact wording on there site describing the china clays they sell?
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To a degree, but not nearly so harshly.

IMO, when you are the owner/operator/administrator of a site with the purpose of educating people about poker chips, you have a special duty to maintain exacting standards and to be honest and fair in your discussions. I found it beyond troubling that the first time Ten spoke of china clay chips as "true clay" chips was when he had a financial interest in the product.
 
jbutler said:
They are advertised as "true clay poker chips", but are china clays. The entire advertisement is deceptive and would (and did) lead people new to the hobby to believe that the new Pharaoh line is equivalent to chips made by Paulson.
Click to expand...

Ironic, because Paulson chips today have little to no “clay” in its formula. The true “clay” chips died out w/ the T.R. Kings.
 
I have no dog in this hunt. I paid for a while at CT because I got value for the subscription. I quit paying when the value dropped below the price. It suits me just fine to have two sites - I put my content where it suits me best, but both places have good stuff.

As for the notable avatar. It is common for companies to scour their social media for unwelcome entries and take actions to remove them. Advertising for a competing "product" could easily be seen as unwelcome and removed. This should shock no one - it is a basic skill for businesses in these times. I would not have asked the member to take down his avatar. If I was concerned, it just would have been deleted otherwise ignored. No need to ban the account - just delete the avatar if it proved bothersome.

DrStrange
 
sleepypiggly said:
Ironic, because Paulson chips today have little to no “clay” in its formula. The true “clay” chips died out w/ the T.R. Kings.
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I think of the word "clay" in chips like I think of the word "mud" in drywall. It's just a term to describe a concoction of ingredients that form a clay like substance. Like play-do. But I don't know anything about the actual ingredients in anyone's formula, I know there's a difference between china clays and "true" clays. They're different and the distinction should be noted.
 
QuiQuog said:
I think of the word "clay" in chips like I think of the word "mud" in drywall. It's just a term to describe a concoction of ingredients that form a clay like substance. Like play-do. But I don't know anything about the actual ingredients in anyone's formula, I know there's a difference between china clays and "true" clays. They're different and the distinction should be noted.
Click to expand...

Yea the industry is full of misnomers. No wonder newcomers are confused. True clay, china clay, BJ/B&G plastic vs. china plastic, etc. At a game, someone will always ask, man, are these REAL CLAY chips? I don’t know how to answer that except to say, why yes sir, it is 100% clay, not at all like those fake clays from China, which is at most 30% clay. Now please post your damn blind.
 
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I was never a paid supporter over there and faded away for a while due to selling a house, buying a house, and moving the family twice in three years. However, I did keep up on some of the drama because my brother & I are friends with Greg & Nana on Facebook. My brother is often in Dallas and sees them in person, so I was aware of the intense personal struggle Greg was going through. I was gone during the time that the site took the big slide. Many of the people I converse with regularly are on both sites. I probably spend 80% of my chipping chat time here as opposed to there.
 
TBH I thought dave change his avatar over there to his "avatar" avatar....same time as he put it on here.

guess not...
 
Binga's Ban is L.A.M.E.

I still Check CT from time to time. This thread is probably a huge boost to the traffic over there. wherever there is interesting content will win out, and right now the only thing I find interesting on CT are the drama posts.
 
I'm still a member of both, and visit both. There is just more action over here. I rarely ever post over there, mostly just lurk. This site is what CT was like, when I first started over there (organizing meat ups, talking about chip design, posting prOn, and talking poker) Then it just kind of fell apart, and started a lot of bickering. I've noticed that some members that didn't get along over there, seem to get along just fine over here. Overall, I just like the "vibe" better over here. I continue to do most of my posting here, and will be more active here.

I think more of the hard feelings come from CT, and agree with many others that have said it doesn't have to be an "either/or" situation. There is plenty of room on the internet for two chip sites. People can still be members of both, and access the wealth of knowledge on both sites.

In short, I'm happy to be here, and I thank Tommy, for creating this amazing forum, that we can all share our passion for this hobby with each other!
 
I visit both. I just like this one better. I am sure that any of you guys that used to frequent CT were just as friendly and helpful over there as you are here. Fun hobby, nice people, I see no downside.
 
jbutler said:
They are advertised as "true clay poker chips", but are china clays. The entire advertisement is deceptive and would (and did) lead people new to the hobby to believe that the new Pharaoh line is equivalent to chips made by Paulson.
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never caught that slight of hand marketing. hmmm. not cool
 
Meh...I said it before and ill say it again...Greg would be better off not letting mommy fight his battles. I didn't read anywhere in that thread where Dave disrespected his family. I did however read a post of Dave's in defense of another that was a blatant attack. And I guess I understand now why both sites can't co-exist. People like Nanna want people to choose just one as she clearly states. "You have all of your buds at PCF now, and according to you and your avatar, it is the best site.......so why are you here??"
So in the end CT has banned a rockstar status champion from a failing site. Thank God he is still part of PCF because IMO he is an invaluable asset to our community.

On a side note I have also noticed that since my last spat with Bubble-Wrap Boy I no longer get happy birthday wishes from CT.. :(

Edit: My bad...in the small print I had to donate to get those..(not really)
 
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Who is bubble wrap boy?

CT will always have a place in my heart. It was the start of it all for me. I still visit, and occasionally post but not a lot. Unfortunately Tens recent actions make me want to post even less, I find it hard to see why he'd ban Dave but do absolutely nothing about what was happening with John Boy. I have always respected how the admin over at CT would try to do everything to avoid banning someone. But to ban over this and not ban Nanna for the same sort of stuff isn't a good look.

I know there are guys here still very attached to CT and I do hope both sites can coexist. But every event makes it less likely.

PS. JM needs to return to one of the sites.
 
stocky said:
Who is bubble wrap boy?
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Greg. He can't get into any conversation that offers an opinion contrary to his without "mom" getting involved.
But I think this thread should really be closed. Deleted. Buried. Burned. We are here now and things have been good for a long time. This stuff while worth talking about can also do nothing but bring out the worst. And that includes myself mostly. It's been a while since I've posted anything negative and felt like I needed to get something off my chest.
 
He lives nearby and I need more chips that he has. So I should probably check in. :)
 
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