A2s in the CO (1 Viewer)

[DrStrange]

Playing 1-2 live, eight handed. Game play this session is being driven by a couple of crazy LAGs who are spewing off chips. The mood is happy / playful. This hand happens about midway through the session.

Cast of characters:

Hero is in the CO with $450. Things have mostly gone Hero's way this session, winning big pots and limiting damage when Hero loses. Hero isn't getting "respect" from raises though. People are here to play.

The button belongs to Crazy Jr. with $300 on a $600 buy in. He is muttering about needing to pee, maybe that mean he is going to fold or maybe he'll push all in and the go pee.

The SB holds $250 in chips. He is a tricky/trappy player. Passive, slowplays everything. Sticky. When he bets, it often means he is betting on hand values from the previous street. Check raises mean business. Like to bet draws.

The Big Blind is on a wondrous heater, playing $900 on a $60 buy-in. He also is tricky trappy. Half way between passive and aggressive, but his bets are medium strength hands or better hands he made on prior streets. His check raises mean business. When he wakes up betting, it is often on the hand values made earlier in the hand.

MP1 is a younger playing outside his comfort zone. He has $125 and is nursing his last money before getting busted. This creates a weird style of play - sometimes wildly over aggressive sometimes weak/passive. It is hard to put him on a hand, but easy to get chips from him.

MP2 is Crafty, a sneaky old LAG playing $400. He might look like Old Man, Coffee but it will not be long before you'll see his true nature. Skilled and thoughtful. When he is on his game, Crafty is dangerous.

All the players have extensive table time together.

The hand:

MP1 and MP2 limp to Hero. Hero looks at

Action on Hero. Fold, limp or raise? If raising, how much?

If Hero limps, the SB and BB will almost always limp along. No telling what Crazy Jr will do, absent the chatter about needing to pee I'd guess he raises half the time.

If Hero raises, expect a lot of callers. Even a $20 raise could expect two or more callers.

DrStrange

 

[manamongkids]

Limp with the hope that the next person entering the pot raises it so you can close the action with just a call.

 

[<°)))><)]

Limp with the hope that the next person entering the pot raises it so you can close the action with just a call.

This!

 

[DrStrange]

It should be noted that Crazy Jr could raise as little as $4 and as much as $50. Lately he has been going $15 to $25.

DrStrange

PS I'll post an update later - I am off to another game tonight {with dice chips}

 

[MegaTon44]

In my opinion, this is a quick fold. Though not a full table, the odds favor someone having an ace. With Crazy Jr on the button, I wouldn't bank on the bio break and expect a play considering he already lost half his buy-in. And based on the LAG tendencies of others, there will be a ton of callers, thus minimizing the likelihood of your hand holding up.

In terms of drawing, the odds of flopping a straight or flush are low enough for this to not be a winning long term strategy. Obviously pot odds and implied odds are always a consideration, especially with this table, but my general tendency would be to fold.

Then again, I'm a nit and I fold ace-rag 90% of the time regardless of position.

 

[DrStrange]

For what it is worth, I love a suited ace when I can play it cheaply with deep stacks (or put another way, play a multiway pot with a high SPR). I am not playing it to make top pair / bad kicker, the target hand is a flopped nut flush draw. If the stacks are shallow or the raises too big, then the hand becomes a lot less attractive.

*** on to the flop ***

Hero limps as does Crazy Jr, and the blinds. Six way action, $12 in the pot. Hero holds

Flop is < >

Three checks bring us to Hero. Is Hero checking or betting? If betting how much?

Crazy Jr has stood up and is looking uncomfortable. Just guessing, but he seems ready to fold. No visible tells from the other players.

What do we recommend? -=- DrStrange

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'm folding this preflop with the field and action as described.

Like you said, you expect multiple calls. A2s is almost always horribly behind or marginally ahead in a multi-way raised pot, which is what you often get with multiple LAGs in a short-handed game. It basically needs to hit a flush (or aces full, and even then meh) to be comfortable with any large post-flop action, and the flush will tend not to get action unless it's against another flush or a straight, or is beaten.

If it were a different table composition or all folds to me, I can raise, but I don't see myself playing this hand often unless I can expect to scoop uncontested money a lot. I guess a limp isn't terrible, though, if your post-flop game is much better than theirs.

Anyway, we're on the flop now. After it checks to me, I'm betting $10.

 

[MegaTon44]

Preflop Recommendation = Fold

Flop Recommendation = Check

This flop is the reason why being in the pot is scary, and . Top pair with bottom kicker with 4-flush (and I suppose some straight) potential out there.

Let's focus on Crazy Jr for a second. Assuming he didn't pop up because he's holding 2-4h and he always wanted to say he hit a "steel wheel", I'll figure he's mucking at this point.

As for the others, trappy players like free cards and crafty players won't see the value in betting into a $12 pot with a relatively dry board out of position. If hero fires a bet of 80-100% of the pot, which would be a reasonable bet to take a stab, 1 or more callers is not unheard of, especially for a $1/$2 game. However, it is risky because there is minimal redraw potential. Is it likely that hero has the best hand at the moment? Absolutely. Is hero's hand going to improve without the board connecting for someone else in some fashion? Likely not.

Overall, pot odds just aren't there for a bet, and low redraw potential gives implied odds to anyone who calls the bet. I believe it is best to check, expect Crazy Jr to check (or muck to hit the head) and hope for a spade or another ace on the turn...

 

[Ghoti]

I limp here.

 

[Ghoti]

And on that flop I bet $7 or $8 when it's checked around to me.

 

[thorwilliam]

Nice flop, I would bet $8-$9 and try to get value from a draw or a seven. To just take it down if noone has anything would be a good outcome as well.

 

[slisk250]

I'm betting 8 and ready to fold if crazy shoves. I want to see that turn cheaply.

 

[DrStrange]

*** On to the turn ***

Hero bets $8.

Crazy Jr was folding as Hero was betting and is now out of the room.

SB and BB call, the rest fold. Three way action, $36 in the pot. Hero holds

Turn: < >

Two checks bring us to Hero. Bet or check, if betting how much?

DrStrange

 

[thorwilliam]

With both of the trappy guys in the pot, I guess I would check behind most of the time to not be check-raised off the flush draw.

 

[Leonard]

I strongly disagree with a pre-flop fold here. You are in position against multiple players with suited connectors/suited ace in a multi-way pot in deep-stack cash poker. If you cannot find at least a call here, you need to pack up and go home. Against a different crew, this is a raising hand. Here, it's an easy call, and call if raised not too much and your call ends the action.

As played, I check the flop.

L

 

[jbutler]

I strongly disagree with a pre-flop fold here. You are in position against multiple players with suited connectors/suited ace in a multi-way pot in deep-stack cash poker. If you cannot find at least a call here, you need to pack up and go home. Against a different crew, this is a raising hand. Here, it's an easy call, and call if raised not too much and your call ends the action.

As played, I check the flop.

L

Co-sign as to all preflop thoughts. Crystal clear that you should be dying to get into a cheap hand with a suited ace vs these players. This is exactly the type of hand that sets us up to cooler someone in a huge pot. If you don't give yourself this type of opportunity you are losing huge long term imo.

Flop is a small bet imo. Sure it's possible we could be beat but this field will pay small with any piece in this spot. Turn is a bet as well imo.

 

[MegaTon44]

Preflop Recommendation = Fold

Flop Recommendation = Check

Turn Recommendation = Bet $27 (75% of pot)

Spade on the turn is a good card. Top pair with a nut flush draw. Biggest concern would be the turn giving someone Queens up and they check raise big to steal. However, I would have to assume that after checks around on 2 streets, a $27 bet should isolate 1 flush chaser or buy the pot.

 

[Leonard]

No arguments with the $8 flop bet.

Turn is a bet. Anything from half to full pot sized.

 

[DrStrange]

FYI - If Hero has a suited hand, there is about a 4% chance for each other player to have a suited hand of the same suit. At this table that means there is roughly a 30% chance someone else will have a weaker spade draw than Hero. Hero's villains would always play two suited cards for $2. If there are two flush draws in competition there is roughly a 4% chance to make a flush by the river. Let's call it 100-1 for Hero to make the nut flush and catch someone with a weaker flush. Not that big a deal playing less than 100bb deep, but as the stacks get deeper the implied odds get really juicy.

Hero also gets paid off if an aggressive player holds the weaker flush draw. The allure of a semi-bluff is sweet. It isn't that uncommon to get it all in on the flop or turn and find Hero's nut flush draw is facing a lesser draw where hero is a 4-1 favorite. That is about the same as AA trapping KK for stacks. This has the potential to happen a lot more often than 1% of the time - maybe something like 4-5 percent of the time.

This is also why a preflop raise can work out with a hand like A2s. (So long as hero can be disciplined enough to keep his cool holding top pair / bad kicker.) The goal is to get the pot worth fighting over and trap the weaker flush draw into a big fight drawing thin.

 

[DrStrange]

*** It is easy to be a genus when you hit runner runner ***

Hero bets $20. SB folds, BB calls. Heads up, $76 in the pot. Hero holds

river is: < >

SB leads out $25. Action on hero. Yes we will raise holding the nuts, how much?

DrStrange

 

[thorwilliam]

Looks a bit like a blocker bet, so it could be hard to get paid. He might be aware of this and level himself into thinking you bluff-raise to get him off his hand though. I would probably raise with $60-$80 more.

 

[Psypher1000]

I'm putting BB on the straight. I think either a small raise or all-in signals to BB that you have the ace. Need to raise big enough to make it look like a bluff, but not so large that he runs away. I'll raise $75 for a $100 total bet.

 

[Leonard]

$100 in the pot now, $125 plus your raise after your bet. He has around $200 behind.

Somebody (Sklansy?) recommended always considering a push with the nuts, but it may be too big. I'd bet at least $100 ($75 on top) but pushing isn't crazy. You are going to regret a smaller bet if he somehow has a smaller flush (K3?), and he's folding to any bet if he was trying to buy it. Pushing isn't crazy, but I imagine that even if your players don't respect your raises, they do respect your $200 bets.

 

[thorwilliam]

$100 in the pot now, $125 plus your raise after your bet. He has around $200 behind.

Somebody (Sklansy?) recommended always considering a push with the nuts, but it may be too big. I'd bet at least $100 ($75 on top) but pushing isn't crazy. You are going to regret a smaller bet if he somehow has a smaller flush (K3?), and he's folding to any bet if he was trying to buy it. Pushing isn't crazy, but I imagine that even if your players don't respect your raises, they do respect your $200 bets.

It would be a weird line of him to make a small donkbet on river with the flush when we have shown strenght on two streets. I think he probably has a hand like two pair.

 

[Leonard]

It would be a weird line of him to make a small donkbet on river with the flush when we have shown strenght on two streets. I think he probably has a hand like two pair.

I agree. KhTh would be a particularly unlucky hand for him.

 

[MegaTon44]

It would seem to me like villain is trying to buy it with a 1/3 pot bet, hoping the hero missed his heart draw. Though he may have 2 pair or a straight, I see this as unlikely given the smooth calling throughout the hand (ie 2 pair would have fired harder and I can't see a call on a gutter straight draw with two 4-flushes on board.) I feel like too substantial of a raise would make all hands fold except a smaller flush, but a min raise would be an obvious sucker bet. I'd probably pop it to $75 and hope he plays back...

 

[DrStrange]

*** On to the after river ***

Hero raises $100 more / $125 all day ($100 into a $126 pot) hoping that villain has made a good hand or slow played one and has to call, but fearing he holds something like A9 and will fold.

Villain tanks a bit, muttering about flush and broadway, but eventually folds.

The table begins questioning villain's judgement, noting that the flush and broadways were runner runner draws and hero bet at every chance. Villain was adamant about the risks of those types of hands - enough so that it was clear to me he didn't understand the idea of street by street evaluation. All he could see was three to a flush and three to a straight on the board which equaled danger!

Hero tosses some sand in the works, claiming to have top and bottom pair. To my shock, the player to my right confirms that Hero held ace-three. He didn't want to say anything but since Hero announced his hand, he thought it would be OK.

Villain puffs up and turns red. "God damn it - I folded a set!" Several people laugh and say no way that happened. Villain turns his hand over, showing .

Hero laughs at villain, telling him he was good every step of the way. Thanks!

Villain goes on monkey tilt, cursing, muttering and explaining how obvious it was Hero had a flush or straight but no one has mercy on villain.

However, the night doesn't go the way you would think for a guy on tilt like that. The Poker Gods shine their loving eyes on villain and his tilt driven play ends with him up $1,300.

There was a lot to be learned from the after river discussion. Hero is going to try to be more careful with his hand security. Hero learned a lot about how the folks at the table think while getting to send some misinformation into the universe.

Gad - flop a set and miss every opportunity to win the hand early but did avoid losing the whole stack to Hero's runner-runner flush -=- DrStrange

 

[Marius L]

Pretty bad play by villain here, but i guess good fold on the end, although I dont see how villain can posibly fold a set here to be honest. after slowplaying so hard, his hand is very disguised, and the tiny blockbet on the river seems to just be begging for a raise. with so many draws on the flop/turn and an ace high board, he should have gotten more money into the pot earlier.

I like heros line, and agree that you have to play A2s in position in this game if you can get in fairly cheap. Maybe a check back on the turn would be ok, but beting also seems fine.