Tourney Advice from HORSE/Limit Xberts Needed (1 Viewer)

[mipevi]

Coming from a NL/PL background, I'm wondering how deep starting stacks I should use? I'm thinking T2000 with starting big blind of T25, so big bet would be T50, meaning a total of 40 big bets... Does that seem low, or would that allow a good amount of play/maneuvering?

Also, around what point (chips in play ratio to big bet) would you expect a tourney like this to end?

Thanks! (y) :thumbsup:

 

[BGinGA]

I've found that most home limit game tournaments (including HORSE) play out about the same as do NLHE events. If you have a structure that works for a specific time frame for NLHE, the same number of starting BB is going to work for HORSE and finish in about the same time frame. Maybe a level or two longer, but certainly not any more than that.

For example, if your existing NLHE structure uses T5000 stacks with 25/50 blinds (100BB) and finishes in 3 hours for 10 players, expect about the same if you start your HORSE event with T5000 and 25/50 blinds during the Level 1 Hold'em round.

Let me know if you need/want assistance tweaking a NLHE format into one for HORSE, which requires the addition of antes and bring-in amounts for the stud-based levels. I typically keep the Big Blind progression as the Big Bet amount for the stud games.

 

[moose]

Very low. Capped every street, one hand could cost you 600 chips, more if you allow unlimited betting heads up and this is just the first level. Find the WSOP HORSE structure from last year and use that. Change games every 8 hands instead of based on time because some games take longer to deal/play than say holdem vs stud.

 

[mipevi]

Thanks guys! I actually already looked at the HORSE structure of WSOP 2014 found here: http://www.wsop.com/2014/structuresheets/13622-structure.pdf

They started with T30k in chips and the starting level big blind was T400 (so stacks of only 37.5 big bets!). That's an even shorter start than what I had planned. Now I don't mind staying on the starting level a good while, as long as that level is deep enough for comfortable play. That said, the set I want to use doesn't stretch much further than T2000, maybe T2500 tops, and since antes are needed the starting big blind has to be T25.

 

[pltrgyst]

Here's the BARGE structure. You could play it at T2500, yielding just over 40 big bets depth. You'd probably get to level 7 or 8.

--------------------

Initial chips: T5,000. Nine players to a table. Game rotation order: Hold'em, Omaha/8, Razz, 7-Stud, 7-Stud/8

Rounds: approximately 36 minutes (average).

During each level, two of the three games will be played. Holdem rounds will be 15 minutes, Stud and Razz rounds will be 18 minutes, and Omaha Hi/Lo rounds will be 22 minutes.

Level Limits Blinds Antes Bring-in

1 30-60 15-30 5 10

2 50-100 25-50 10 15

3 75-150 50-75 15 25

Break for 10 minutes, Remove T5 chips.

4 150-300 75-150 25 50

5 200-400 100-200 25 75

6 300-600 150-300 50 100

7 500-1,000 200-400 75 150

Break for 10 minutes, Remove T25 chips.

8 800-1,500 300-600 100 200

9 1,000-2,000 500-1,000 200 300

10 1,500-3,000 800-1,500 300 500

Break for 10 minutes.

11 2,000-4,000 1,000-2,000 200 800

12 3,000-6,000 1,500-3,000 300 1,000

13 4,000-8,000 2,000-4,000 500 1,200

Break for 10 minutes, Remove T100 chips.

14 6,000-12,000 3,000-6,000 500 2,000

15 8,000-16,000 4,000-8,000 1,000 2,500

16 10,000-20,000 5,000-10,000 1,500 3,000

17 15,000-30,000 7,500-15,000 2,000 5,000

18 20,000-40,000 10,000-20,000 5,000 6,000

 

[mipevi]

Looking at that 9max T5000 BARGE structure, starting stacks are at 50 big bets depth already on level 2. So I think that's still plenty deep. And at level 4, starting around 1h 45min mark, they're at only 16+ big bets...

For a similar HORSE structure, I put this together. I want the tourney to end in about 2.5-3 hours, so I'm still thinking of starting with just T2000... First four levels should be about 30 min each, then just around 15 min per level. With a total of T16k on the table the goal would be to finish on levels 6-8.


Level Limits Blinds Antes Bring-in

1 25-50 15-25 5 10

2 50-100 25-50 10 15

3 75-150 50-75 15 25

4 100-200 50-100 15 30

BREAK and remove T5

5 150-300 75-150 25 50

6 200-400 100-200 25 75

7 300-600 150-300 50 100

8 500-1000 250-500 100 150


Thoughts?

 

[BGinGA]

I definitely recommend keeping all levels the same length, otherwise the tournament is going to feel very rushed towards the end. Regardless of time, your structure will end around L9-L10, so you need more levels. Adding 300/600 and 400/800 blinds (and appropriate antes/bring-in/limits) should be sufficient. Using 200/400 blinds for L8 would make a better transition to the new levels.

With all levels at 30 minutes, event should finish in about 4.5-5 hours. Your plan of mixed 30min/15min levels puts total time at 3-3.5 hours, as does all 20-minute levels. To meet your target time, use 18-minute levels throughout (2.75-3 hours).

Note that the levels do not dictate the game being played: the game being dealt should change every 8 hands or so. Button position should freeze during non-blind games.

 

[mipevi]

Hmm, I always shorten the levels near the end because I want somewhat deep play in the beginning (I don't like people busting out in the first 30 min or so after making the effort to show up), but I still need to meet the 3 hour time limit. After some players do bust, the play itself gets faster because there are fewer players to act, so essentially people still get to play a decent number of hands per level. It can feel a bit rushed at times, but I don't normally have the luxury of a 5 hour game.

Ok adding two more levels. With my time restraints, I think 30 min for the first level, 20 min for L2-L4, then 15 min for L5-L7 and 10 min for L8-L10.

Level Limits Blinds Antes Bring-in

1 25-50 15-25 5 10

2 50-100 25-50 10 15

3 75-150 50-75 15 25

4 100-200 50-100 15 30

BREAK and remove T5

5 150-300 75-150 25 50

6 200-400 100-200 25 75

7 300-600 150-300 50 100

8 400-800 200-400 75 150

9 600-1200 300-600 100 200

10 800-1600 400-800 125 250

 

[BGinGA]

Hmm, I always shorten the levels near the end because I want somewhat deep play in the beginning (I don't like people busting out in the first 30 min or so after making the effort to show up)

Good concept for NL/PL events, but pointless here. The difference is that nobody will be busting out in the early levels of a Limit tournament; it's just not possible. Make 'em all the same....

New structure looks good, but 10-minute levels don't work well for Limit games in general, nor for Stud games specifically..... hands take much longer to play out than those in NL/PL games (more hands sticking around longer for draws, no way to end hands with large bets, etc.). Do what you want, or listen to the voice of experience. Your call.

 

[mipevi]

Well, IMO with 8 players in the beginning and evenly timed levels, the first levels will feel rushed because each hand takes longer to deal/play and orbits are the full 8 hands. As players go busto, the hands will play out faster, and the orbit is shorter for each game. Therefore the shorter levels towards the end keep the experience similar throughout the tournament (assuming people bust out somewhat regularly). And if the tourney turns into a crap shoot near the end, I don't mind that at all.