Cash Game Proofread my explanation of Pot Limit (1 Viewer)

[Machine]

I'm not sure that it's improper, but the professional dealers we hire at some home games do it this way.

They shouldn't. I've seen floor persons correct dealers that were stacking non-split pots. It can also interfere with viewing the cards.

The best I could find right now is from the Professional Dealers handbook.

In No-Limit Hold'em you'll not get an answer to asking the value of the pot, where as in Pot-Limit Anything the dealer would tell you.

 

[Poker Zombie]

For clarity, you're planning on playing Pot-Limit Hold'em, correct?

We will have 2 tables running. One PLO and one Pot Limit Hold'em. Both tables will have double board bomb pots (Omaha or HE depending on the table), with the bomb moving counter clockwise.

 

[TheLemursReturn]

We tried pot-limit a few weeks ago just to see if we could. We were only 3-handed and none of us had ever played pot-limit before.

We read a bunch of tutorials very similar to OP and did our best. But there were numerous points where we noticed we screwed something up on the current hand or all along.

We were mostly using the 3X trick and trying to remember what counts and what gets backed out, etc.

It bothered me that we never knew for sure if we were doing it right and to this day, I've been wondering why it had to be so complicated.

Enter these phrases:

Completing the bet and adding in the total pot

put in your call of the raise, then match everything.

I finally get it. Now I'm excited to try again.

 

[Taghkanic]

As a side note, I find that raising less than full pot is a really great way to mess with PLO opponents’ minds.

A lot of people seem to think the only bet one should ever make is POT!!!!! So when you could make it $200 but you only make it $60, suddenly they seem to have no idea what to do.

Silly but true in my experience.

 

[Poker Zombie]

As a side note, I find that raising less than full pot is a really great way to mess with PLO opponents’ minds.

A lot of people seem to think the only bet one should ever make is POT!!!!! So when you could make it $200 but you only make it $60, suddenly they seem to have no idea what to do.

Silly but true in my experience.

I agree with that. I usually bet what I want, which in my nitty ways may be a smidge below pot. Sometimes it gets all counted up and there is a murmur about "why didn't he bet pot?"

Players fold thinking its a value bet and I have the nuts. I just have bad math and hadn't had this prolonged discussion yet.

 

[Jonesey07]

In my defense, I’m not going to play golf but to watch professionals play golf. We are also staying in tunica so that should be expensive.

 

[ekricket]

In my defense, I’m not going to play golf but to watch professionals play golf. We are also staying in tunica so that should be expensive.

You should proofread the title of the threads you are posting in, lol

 

[Taghkanic]

Re: Pot-Limit vs Pot Limit:

I learned years ago from a friend who is a dictionary editor that there are two main approaches to these questions, Prescriptive and Descriptive.

Prescriptivists think that language must have clear rules, and that you must follow them.

Descriptivists think that language is what people actually write and say, whether it’s proper or not.

Over time, actual usage slowly prevails over the rules, leaving only the most pedantic or stubborn speakers to say/spell things “properly.”

As I understood it, most dictionaries and grammar books try to balance the two, beginning with prescriptive definitions and rules, but evolving slowly with the times. More and more recognizing common usage and changes, compared to say 100 years ago.

So while Pot-Limit may be technically correct, over time my guess is that the hyphen will slowly disappear.

 

[BGinGA]

In my defense, I’m not going to play golf but to watch professionals play golf. We are also staying in tunica so that should be expensive.

The 'WTF/Derail' thread is over there --------->

 

[Jonesey07]

The 'WTF/Derail' thread is over there --------->

He did tag me in the OP. I responded to that.

 

[Poker Zombie]

He did tag me in the OP. I responded to that.

The OP was soooo page 1.

 

[ArielVer18]

I'm probably rehashing what everyone else already wrote. To understand why the 3x shortcut work requires some knowledge of elementary algebra. A group of not sober poker players mid-game doesn’t want to think about anything more advanced than basic arithmetic. Hell, we round up the small blind in pot-limit cash games so we don't have to deal with fractions! Mid-game, we don’t want to figure out why the algebra formula works; just know that it does.

Completing the bet and adding in the total pot

“put in your call of the raise, then match everything.”

Any variation of the above is the most intuitive way to understand why it’s called pot-limit.

C = your complete/call of the last wager
E = everything currently in the pot
X = maximum pot-size bet
X = C+E


Here’s how to derive the 3x formula

“Everything currently in the pot” includes your call, the last wager, trailing bets (action prior to previous bet), and the starting pot (previous round action), so let’s break it down.

L = last wager
T = trail (action prior to previous bet)
S = starting pot (previous round action)

E = C+L+T+S
C = L
X = C+(C+L+T+S)
X = C+C+C+T+S
X = 3*C+T+S

 

[ekricket]

I'm probably rehashing what everyone else already wrote. To understand why the 3x shortcut work requires some knowledge of elementary algebra. A group of not sober poker players mid-game doesn’t want to think about anything more advanced than basic arthritics. Hell, we round up the small blind in pot-limit cash games so we don't have to deal with fractions! Mid-game, we don’t want to figure out why the algebra formula works; just know that it does.



Any variation of the above is the most intuitive way to understand why it’s called pot-limit.

C = your complete/call of the last wager
E = everything currently in the pot
X = maximum pot-size bet
X = C+E


Here’s how to derive the 3x formula

“Everything currently in the pot” includes your call, the last wager, trailing bets (action prior to previous bet), and the starting pot (previous round action), so let’s break it down.

L = last wager
T = trail (action prior to previous bet)
S = starting pot (previous round action)

E = C+L+T+S
C = L
X = C+(C+L+T+S)
X = C+C+C+T+S
X = 3*C+T+S

lol they need a dictionary to start with.

Is it the tail or the trail?

So putting this on a card to handout should make everyone understand.

L = last wager
T = trail (action prior to previous bet)
S = starting pot (previous round action)

E = C+L+T+S
C = L
X = C+(C+L+T+S)
X = C+C+C+T+S
X = 3*C+T+S


Here’s a simpler formula

Make the call
Count up how much is in the pot now - you have to do this anyway
Multiply this by 1 to get the amount you need to add to complete the “pot” action
Add that amount.

Fits your criteria for multiplying so it should be good.

 

[Poker Zombie]

@Mrs Poker Zombie and I took a test run at pot limits yesterday. We used both the 3x method and the call and count method. Alcohol was involved.

I favored the 3x method when I wanted to know how much the bet was going to be, before I declared "pot". I preferred the call and count method for when I had a crushing hand and just wanted to get the pot juicy.

After a couple refills of the adult beverages, anytime I did the 3x method, we would verify using the call and count method. Kevin is right, call and count is superior for drunks, but 3x has it's place, especially during double-board Omaha bomb pots, which had a ridiculously high number of all-ins.

I will re-write the article and post again. Many thanks so far to all who have helped out.

 

[allforcharity]

especially during double-board Omaha bomb pots, which had a ridiculously high number of all-ins.

Were they hi-lo, too?

Technically, can't go "all in" in pot limit unless your stack is smaller than the pot bet, but I understand where you are coming from.

 

[doublebooyah85]

@Mrs Poker Zombie and I took a test run at pot limits yesterday. We used both the 3x method and the call and count method. Alcohol was involved.

I favored the 3x method when I wanted to know how much the bet was going to be, before I declared "pot". I preferred the call and count method for when I had a crushing hand and just wanted to get the pot juicy.

After a couple refills of the adult beverages, anytime I did the 3x method, we would verify using the call and count method. Kevin is right, call and count is superior for drunks, but 3x has it's place, especially during double-board Omaha bomb pots, which had a ridiculously high number of all-ins.

I will re-write the article and post again. Many thanks so far to all who have helped out.

Great thread btw

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

Were they hi-lo, too?

Technically, can't go "all in" in pot limit unless your stack is smaller than the pot bet, but I understand where you are coming from.

No, you don't do a double-board Omaha Hi/Lo unless you are nut bar and want to deal with quarter pots.

Since we were simulating more than 2 players, we indeed had several "all ins" because their call was less than pot. We got it!

 

[allforcharity]

No, you don't do a double-board Omaha Hi/Lo unless you are nut bar and want to deal with quarter pots.

(looks sheepish)

 

[Racer96]

I'm not sure that it's improper, but the professional dealers we hire at some home games do it this way.

You're hiring the wrong professionals.
When I was teaching it, we were very strict about NOT doing that. By making a pot easily readable, the dealer is providing information that should be up to the players to remember/calculate. Same reason why players can't just ask a dealer how much is in the pot.

Mike

 

[doublebooyah85]

Same reason why players can't just ask a dealer how much is in the pot.

That’s exactly what you can do in plo? Or am I mistaken???

 

[casinochipper22]

That’s exactly what you can do in plo? Or am I mistaken???

yeah. that is a fair question in a pot limit game. I think he was referring to a nl game.

 

[casinochipper22]

yeah. that is a fair question in a pot limit game. I think he was referring to a nl game.

or maybe he wasn't. lol. but yeah, you can always ask what's in the pot.

 

[allforcharity]

You're hiring the wrong professionals.
When I was teaching it, we were very strict about NOT doing that. By making a pot easily readable, the dealer is providing information that should be up to the players to remember/calculate. Same reason why players can't just ask a dealer how much is in the pot.

Mike

What can I say? Both Bic and Ian did it this way for PLO.

 

[casinochipper22]

What can I say? Both Bic and Ian did it this way for PLO.

you can ask what is in the pot at any time.

but here is a dealer pro tip (I did this in a 5k and was quickly corrected on it by a player) if a player puts out a bet and doesn't say anything, and the bet is equal to the pot, don't say pot. lol. just say the bet amount. saying pot is giving information... whoops, lesson learned. I was just so proud of myself for knowing the size of the pot after a river snap bet (it was a big one) that I wanted to share that info with everyone, haha.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Pot-limit is a compound modifier and usually makes it easier to read. This is how it is done in AP though. Not sure about other styles.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Dont get an exact total...Just quickly scan and figure out the higher denom chips total then guess about how much in the other denoms, add together and bet that total which should be a hefty amount because

 

[Racer96]

That’s exactly what you can do in plo? Or am I mistaken???

The way I was told (and then subsequently, the way I taught other dealers), was that as a dealer, you never tell them what the total of the pot is. Regardless of NLHE or PLO. That is something that the players need to be doing themselves. However, if a player says "I bet pot" then the dealer is to state what that amount is.

yeah. that is a fair question in a pot limit game. I think he was referring to a nl game.

No, at least where I was taught, it's the same.

or maybe he wasn't. lol. but yeah, you can always ask what's in the pot.

Haha, yeah, so, as a dealer, I can't say "The pot is $xxx" if asked, "How much is the pot?" or "How much can I bet?" , but if they say, "I want to bet the pot" , then their bet would stand at $xxx.

Similar to in NLHE, when a player asks how much is in there, you can't state, you can spread the pot to make it easier to read, but that's it.

What can I say? Both Bic and Ian did it this way for PLO.

Yeah, well, I know Bic, and I also know that he does not do a lot of things by proper procedure. I don't know Ian.
There's actually quite a few dealers at the local casinos that don't do things the way they are supposed to. Mostly because of laziness. Doing things properly is harder, lol.

 

[ArielVer18]

The best I could find right now is from the Professional Dealers handbook.

View attachment 1371202

Might be the author's lack of experience with pot-limit games because I skimmed the 2009 edition and couldn't find a section about pot-limit, other than a small paragraph saying it is "only rarely spread in poker rooms, but appears to be growing in popularity and is popular in Europe." Players are entitled to a pot count in pot-limit, so why make the dealer's job more difficult by not letting him stack the pot?

 

[casinochipper22]

The way I was told (and then subsequently, the way I taught other dealers), was that as a dealer, you never tell them what the total of the pot is. Regardless of NLHE or PLO. That is something that the players need to be doing themselves. However, if a player says "I bet pot" then the dealer is to state what that amount is.


No, at least where I was taught, it's the same.


Haha, yeah, so, as a dealer, I can't say "The pot is $xxx" if asked, "How much is the pot?" or "How much can I bet?" , but if they say, "I want to bet the pot" , then their bet would stand at $xxx.

Similar to in NLHE, when a player asks how much is in there, you can't state, you can spread the pot to make it easier to read, but that's it.


Yeah, well, I know Bic, and I also know that he does not do a lot of things by proper procedure. I don't know Ian.
There's actually quite a few dealers at the local casinos that don't do things the way they are supposed to. Mostly because of laziness. Doing things properly is harder, lol.

whenever I have a random dealer question, especially having to do with mix games, I ask @Terrys394 he has been dealing as long as I've been alive. haha... Hey T-bone, a player can ask for the count in a pot limit game right? Or am I just making shit up again?

 

[Terrys394]

If it’s your turn you can ask how much is in the pot. Is that what you mean by count ?