All In Home Game Dilemma (1 Viewer)

[cranberry]

Posted this on reddit but wanted some other opinions here since everyone was split on answers.

Was playing a home .25/.50 game with friends and by the end of the night we were all fairly deep stacked. Basically I went all in in around a $40 pot and action folds to my friend who's the only one left and asks for a count. We use 4 chip denoms (.25,.50,1,2) for a $20 starting buy in so I had a fairly large pile of chips and gave a quick count and told him I had "like $55" behind (was not trying to angle). He thought that he had me way covered with his $80 stack so he calls and loses. I then count that I actually had about $73 and we argue for a bit but he agreed to pay the full amount. I realize that in a casino game the floor ruling is going in my favor every time since the player is not obligated to give an exact count of their stack, the dealer is. Since this is a home game, I am still not completely sure if I am in the right or wrong here and I'd appreciate some opinions.

Edit: Here are some minor details about the hand. I had Q4d on a Q258 board and jammed all in on the turn with a shitty top pair plus 4 to a flush. He tried to bluff catch with pocket 9s. Before this point I was down about $80 for the night with multiple re buys and the person who lost the pot was up big so he only really lost $20 in total so at the time winning the full pot seemed pretty important to me to get unstuck. Also with the fact that since he had me covered, I know he would have wanted my entire stack and not just 55 if he has won the pot. Since theres no way he would have been like, "you thought your all in it was 55 so you can just pay 55" I feel I should be payed the full amount since my all in was being completely wagered at the time. Seems like a big factor many people are overlooking.

 

[Samuel]

Posted this on reddit but wanted some other opinions here since everyone was split on answers.

Was playing a home .25/.50 game with friends and by the end of the night we were all fairly deep stacked. Basically I went all in in around a $40 pot and action folds to my friend who's the only one left and asks for a count. We use 4 chip denoms (.25,.50,1,2) for a $20 starting buy in so I had a fairly large pile of chips and gave a quick count and told him I had "like $55" behind (was not trying to angle). He thought that he had me way covered with his $80 stack so he calls and loses. I then count that I actually had about $73 and we argue for a bit but he agreed to pay the full amount. I realize that in a casino game the floor ruling is going in my favor every time since the player is not obligated to give an exact count of their stack, the dealer is. Since this is a home game, I am still not completely sure if I am in the right or wrong here and I'd appreciate some opinions.

Edit: Here are some minor details about the hand. I had Q4d on a Q258 board and jammed all in on the turn with a shitty top pair plus 4 to a flush. He tried to bluff catch with pocket 9s. Before this point I was down about $80 for the night with multiple re buys and the person who lost the pot was up big so he only really lost $20 in total so at the time winning the full pot seemed pretty important to me to get unstuck. Also with the fact that since he had me covered, I know he would have wanted my entire stack and not just 55 if he has won the pot. Since theres no way he would have been like, "you thought your all in it was 55 so you can just pay 55" I feel I should be payed the full amount since my all in was being completely wagered at the time. Seems like a big factor many people are overlooking

My 2 pesos, IMO:

You were responsible for giving him an accurate count. "like $55" when you actually had "about $73" is a pretty big discrepancy. He most likely called under the belief that he was only risking $55 (and would still have $25 to play with if he lost, rather than just $7).

If the other guy is really a friend like you claim and your game isn't about the money, then I think you should have just taken $55. If the $18 is more important to you (or being down for a session), then I don't know what to tell you...

Btw, Reddit was split so you're coming here for what??? You want strangers to tell you you're 100% in the right? Who the F cares what strangers think? If any other opinions matter at all, it should Probably be what YOUR GROUP OF FRIENDS think! And if they told you something you didn't like, then maybe you should consider a little soul searching or perhaps find a new group of "friends" to play poker with...

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Posted this on reddit but wanted some other opinions here since everyone was split on answers.

Was playing a home .25/.50 game with friends and by the end of the night we were all fairly deep stacked. Basically I went all in in around a $40 pot and action folds to my friend who's the only one left and asks for a count. We use 4 chip denoms (.25,.50,1,2) for a $20 starting buy in so I had a fairly large pile of chips and gave a quick count and told him I had "like $55" behind (was not trying to angle). He thought that he had me way covered with his $80 stack so he calls and loses. I then count that I actually had about $73 and we argue for a bit but he agreed to pay the full amount. I realize that in a casino game the floor ruling is going in my favor every time since the player is not obligated to give an exact count of their stack, the dealer is. Since this is a home game, I am still not completely sure if I am in the right or wrong here and I'd appreciate some opinions.

Edit: Here are some minor details about the hand. I had Q4d on a Q258 board and jammed all in on the turn with a shitty top pair plus 4 to a flush. He tried to bluff catch with pocket 9s. Before this point I was down about $80 for the night with multiple re buys and the person who lost the pot was up big so he only really lost $20 in total so at the time winning the full pot seemed pretty important to me to get unstuck. Also with the fact that since he had me covered, I know he would have wanted my entire stack and not just 55 if he has won the pot. Since theres no way he would have been like, "you thought your all in it was 55 so you can just pay 55" I feel I should be payed the full amount since my all in was being completely wagered at the time. Seems like a big factor many people are overlooking.

Why do you use 4 denoms so close together? That’s the real crime (but seriously if you stack your chips in stacks of 20 you should be able to give an accurate count very quickly).

 

[Colquhoun]

IMO, if your opponent was satisfied with “about $55”, then he should just deal with it. If he wanted a truly accurate count, he should’ve asked for it.
Also, if all your big chips are out front, it’s on him to figure out the count.

 

[Machine]

You should have counted it down; without a dedicated dealer, you should put the chips out in front and count them down, the other side is what @Colquhoun points out.

It's a friendly game, you should have honored 'about 55' imo.

The good news is you can buy a six pack and split it with him, explain in retro spec you feel bad that it went that way and wanted to make it up to him.

 

[Ben8257]

Hmm, you went all in, it wasn't really asking whats behind as in how much more does he risk continuing the hand (say to a larger $20 plus bet) going all in and stating a #.... you did use the word "like" but 20% is quite a bit. Maybe he should have asked for an accurate count but personally I would ask for the $55 and call it good, especially in a friendly home game.

It got under his skin, I am more "what's good for the game" it's an honest mistake on both parts. In for $80 and now sitting at $146... $128 sounds pretty good too. Rather keep them gambling, guessing the guy donked off the rest and didn't buy in again?

Like @Chippy McChiperson said, better denoms ($.25/$1/$5) would allow for a quicker, more accurate count. $70 in a $20 game is significant almost a full buy in off

 

[upNdown]

I think you’re a knucklehead for not knowing how much you had, and for underestimating it by so much. How hard is it to stack your chips in 20’s and get an accurate count?
He’s a knucklehead for taking your word for it and not getting a better count of your chips himself.
And you’re all knuckleheads for using 4 chips that are all within $1.75 of each other.

The bottom line is that this is poker, so he either pays you the full amount or he doesn’t play poker with you guys anymore.
But next time you make a mistake like that, the guys might start to question whether they want to play with you anymore.

Edited to add: yeah, if I were you, I would have wanted to either only make him pay $55, or at least split the difference with him. But if I were him, I would have insisted on paying the full amount, because it was my (his) fault for not getting a better count. So whatever - you guys need to play better!

Edited again to add: you’re not right here. Yeah, I think he has to pay the full amount, $73 or whatever. But that doesn’t make you right, or the winner of any argument. It’s just that the story has to end somehow.

 

[grantc54]

I'm having a hard time how a quick count could be off by that much. +1 to having chips in stacks and big chips out front.

I asusme he watched you count, so even he should have been able to see that big a discrepency.

If big chips were hidden in your pile Im not sure which way I would have ruled. With a friend I would have likely split the difference and apologized for not properly counting or organizing my chips.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

I dont know your house rules but where I come from: Verbal is binding. If you said "All-in" you're all in. He should have asked for an exact count when you said "like" if he really cared to make a call. My 2 cents is keep your stacks 20 high. Makes it super easy to get a quick, accurate count. My extra 8 cents: ditch the .50 & $2 chips as they seem redundant to me and replace with a $5. I know it's easy for me to spend your money on chips so I apologize ahead of time!

 

[ekricket]

Next game buy him in for his first $20. Friends, what you gonna do?

Besides it sounds like that $20 might net you $60 by the end of the night.

 

[SeanGecko]

I dont know your house rules but where I come from: Verbal is binding. If you said "All-in" you're all in. He should have asked for an exact count when you said "like" if he really cared to make a call. My 2 cents is keep your stacks 20 high. Makes it super easy to get a quick, accurate count. My extra 8 cents: ditch the .50 & $2 chips as they seem redundant to me and replace with a $5. I know it's easy for me to spend your money on chips so I apologize ahead of time!

We got some folks that will sell you some chips too.... Probably

 

[Eriks]

@Machine this thread should be linked to in the ”new player start here” thread, as part of a ”this is why you keep 4-5x between denoms”.

 

[Machine]

@Machine this thread should be linked to in the ”new player start here” thread, as part of a ”this is why you keep 4-5x between denoms”.

Done:

 

[bergs]

This is how the interview in Weehawken started, FWIW.

 

[LeLe]

If I the caller, I will still end up paying you the $73 but in future street, you not getting away in any "about" stuff anymore. Everything had to be an actual count down to the cents, and also will put you in my mental note you are angling

If I am the OP, I will offer to only collect $55 if I really felt it an honest mistake. $73 is no way near about $55 in my opinion. Furthermore, you mention this is your "friend" and not just some casino game player

Overall, the caller had to pay the full $73 and OP is not right, is just how is it.

 

[ChipEnvy]

Next game buy him in for his first $20. Friends, what you gonna do?

Besides it sounds like that $20 might net you $60 by the end of the night.

^^^ All of this. Everyone ends up happy and stays friends.

 

[Highli99]

Why do you use 4 denoms so close together? That’s the real crime (but seriously if you stack your chips in stacks of 20 you should be able to give an accurate count very quickly).

I agree that’s the main crime but playing .25/.50 with a $20 buy in (40bbs) seems like a contributing factor. This structure is wack. I’d do .10/.20 or .05/.10 at those stakes.

The OP is sentenced to a week of enlightenment in the resources section of the forum.

 

[2Chips1chair]

Posted this on reddit but wanted some other opinions here since everyone was split on answers.

Was playing a home .25/.50 game with friends and by the end of the night we were all fairly deep stacked. Basically I went all in in around a $40 pot and action folds to my friend who's the only one left and asks for a count. We use 4 chip denoms (.25,.50,1,2) for a $20 starting buy in so I had a fairly large pile of chips and gave a quick count and told him I had "like $55" behind (was not trying to angle). He thought that he had me way covered with his $80 stack so he calls and loses. I then count that I actually had about $73 and we argue for a bit but he agreed to pay the full amount. I realize that in a casino game the floor ruling is going in my favor every time since the player is not obligated to give an exact count of their stack, the dealer is. Since this is a home game, I am still not completely sure if I am in the right or wrong here and I'd appreciate some opinions.

Edit: Here are some minor details about the hand. I had Q4d on a Q258 board and jammed all in on the turn with a shitty top pair plus 4 to a flush. He tried to bluff catch with pocket 9s. Before this point I was down about $80 for the night with multiple re buys and the person who lost the pot was up big so he only really lost $20 in total so at the time winning the full pot seemed pretty important to me to get unstuck. Also with the fact that since he had me covered, I know he would have wanted my entire stack and not just 55 if he has won the pot. Since theres no way he would have been like, "you thought your all in it was 55 so you can just pay 55" I feel I should be payed the full amount since my all in was being completely wagered at the time. Seems like a big factor many people are overlooking.

This is why, as host, I always count for anyone when people ask (I have some drunk players that are off by $30+/-.)
IMHO, you shoulda have honored the "like $55." if you were at $60 he probably wouldnt have a problem paying you. Because you didn't give him accurate information, he cant make a good decision.

Honestly, for $18 id rather make a friend feel like he wasnt angled vs getting a few extra bucks.

 

[Eriks]

.25/.50 game

We use 4 chip denoms (.25,.50,1,2) for a $20 starting buy in

As others have pointed out, you should do different stakes for that buy-in and definitely use better denoms.

I had a fairly large pile of chips

I dislike anything other than actual stacks of 20 but this would make me crinch. No way would I accept an estimate based off of that. Nor should he have, but considering:

game with friends

I would not have asked him for more than I estimated.

 

[xdan]

The chip breakdown is tilting.

 

[Eloe2000]

I posted a similar response on Reddit because I was in the vast minority. At our very friendly self dealt game it is not the persons responsibility to count their stack for another player. A player can ask. And that player can give a count, rough or hard. But it’s not their responsibility. And we generally make a clear difference between a rough count and a hard count. If someone asked me how much I had left I would say “about $55, do you need a hard count”. Or otherwise it is assumed that it is a rough count and you need to specifically ask for a hard count. As long as your big chips were clearly out front or on top I think he is stuck for the full $55 and it isn’t even a close call for me.

I just had a situation last week heads up. I have a pretty decent hand and debate 3 betting all-in to push a guy off his hand. I have about 300BB. I glance over at his stack and it looks like he has about 75BB. I move all-in and he calls and rivers me. Only at pay out do I realize that he has several $20s at the very bottom of several of his stacks of his stacks of $1s. So he had about 3x what I thought he had because of his buried big chips. I wouldn’t have pushed had I had a better count. I admonished him for not having his big chips on top or out front (and so did other players), but I paid him out because it was on me. I was tilted the rest of the night though.

 

[Random Phish]

There are so many parts of this that are tilting…
- $20 buyin in a $0.25/$0.50 game
- 4 chips in play with a spread of $0.25 - $2.00
- chips in a big pile
- about $55
- about $55 is good enough information
- coming here asking who’s right

You’re both wrong. If he asked for a count you should have given him an accurate count. If you were off by a couple bucks we probably wouldn’t be hearing about it. But you were way off, so we are.

If the actual amount he was risking to call was important to him, he should have insisted on an accurate count. He didn’t.

Whether you’re up or down for a session doesn’t matter. It might influence the decisions but has no bearing on the ruling for the hand.

IMO, you thought you had $55, you were expecting to win $55 if your hand held up, so you should be paid $55. However had you lost the hand you should have given him your whole stack. You put your whole stack at risk knowing he covered you and if you lost the hand you would lose your stack. It seems your stack size wasn’t a consideration when you stuck it in.

Good luck

 

[BPTDirector]

1. If I call an all in it’s for the other guy’s stack.

2. If I do not ask for an accurate count it’s on me.

Either way I owe his whole stack or he owes me his whole stack if I have him covered.

But this is indeed easily avoided if you have your chips organized in stacks of 20 so they can be easily counted.

 

[upNdown]

1. If I call an all in it’s for the other guy’s stack.

2. If I do not ask for an accurate count it’s on me.

Either way I owe his whole stack or he owes me his whole stack if I have him covered.

But this is indeed easily avoided if you have your chips organized in stacks of 20 so they can be easily counted.

It's this simple. All other responses can be deleted.

 

[horseshoez]

I won’t dissect this 10 different ways, because it’ll turn a very simply situation into a complicated one.

It’s a friendly home game, the actual amount at the end of the hand just needs to be paid out and the hand needs to be done with. It’s a group of friends, one apologizes for the miscount, the other says “yep, no problem there just a simple mistake” and the game moves on.

Friendly home games are just that and there have been several occasions where a player has been off in his or her count at my games but when it’s resolved, everybody is all smiles and the game goes on. A nice gesture from your end would probably do the job, in case he wasn’t a happy camper. Cover his next buy in or give him a small pot where you know you’re 100% losing but you’re essentially donating to him. Easy.

 

[Rieguy]

Since I'm the main host for our games and they're self-dealt, it is known that if there is an all-in and someone wants a truly accurate stack-count, I will be the one playing the "casino dealer" role and do this, whether or not I am in the hand. If they don't feel like taking the time to go that route, so long as all of their chips are plainly visible, then the other players' estimate or their own is sufficient.

Clearly defined and/or consistent rules/SOPs are what make home games run smoothly.

 

[Coyote]

Hell, even neat stacks of 10 would have prevented this

 

[Kentucky]

Hell, even neat stacks of 10 would have prevented this

Can I use stacks of 10 if I have less than 20 chips?
Asking for a friend

 

[CrazyEddie]

At our very friendly self dealt game it is not the persons responsibility to count their stack for another player. A player can ask. And that player can give a count, rough or hard. But it’s not their responsibility.

House rules can be as you please, of course, but it seems odd to say that when a player is facing a bet, there is no one responsible for telling him the exact size of the bet he's facing.

A player should always be entitled to know the size of the bet he must call. In a casino, it's the dealer's responsibility to give him this information if requested, and the dealer is both allowed and required to count all of the chips that the betting player has bet (i.e. all of them for an all-in bet). In a self-dealt home game, I'd expect as a matter of courtesy that players would count their own chips rather than putting it on the dealer, and to count them exactly if requested.

-----

Edit to add: For clarity, this only applies to chips that have already been bet (whether physically moved into the pot or not) and only for the player contemplating a call. Going in the other direction - when a player is contemplating a bet and is sizing up the stack of the player who would have to call it - neither player is entitled to a count of the other player's unbet chips, not even a rough estimate. They are entitled to see all the chips so that they can make a fair visual estimate of their own, which is why the big chips have to go out front. But that's it. What you have on the table is your own business; what you've put into the pot is everyone's business.

 

[Eloe2000]

House rules can be as you please, of course, but it seems odd to say that when a player is facing a bet, there is no one responsible for telling him the exact size of the bet he's facing.

A player should always be entitled to know the size of the bet he must call. In a casino, it's the dealer's responsibility to give him this information if requested, and the dealer is both allowed and required to count all of the chips that the betting player has bet (i.e. all of them for an all-in bet). In a self-dealt home game, I'd expect as a matter of courtesy that players would count their own chips rather than putting it on the dealer, and to count them exactly if requested.

We still have the dealer responsible. The player can ice out if they want.