Tournament Home Game Issue - Player continually going all in within the first hour (1 Viewer)

[Jimulacrum]

It's potentially problematic in another way which does not have anything to do with emotions.

If the guy is truly committed to busting very early, this means (a) the game always loses a player early, making it shorter-handed than normal every week; and (b) he is creating a 2x stack on the table very early every game, which skews the early gameplay in a specific way (assuming the doubled up guy knows how to use it to his advantage).

Sure, that could happen naturally -- AA vs KK on the first orbit, etc.

But if it is happening *every* game then the reckless/suicidal player has effectively made a unilateral change to the format.

Another odd result of his approach: I assume that some nitty players are *never* calling his early all-in with anything but premiums... whereas a couple others probably realize that calling with any pair, any Broadway combo, any suited ace, or really just any top 25% hand is probably a good move if you don't mind leaving early roughly a third of the time.

In other words, the reckless player is gifting the thinking players with a giant new edge. Nice for them but again the reckless player has skewed the longstanding dynamic in a way which is more random than the host likes.

In other words, his presence allows elements of both skill and chance to be factors in a game where both skill and chance are appropriate factors. I do not see the problem.

Also, I encourage you to read the OP carefully. Try to piece together a clear claim of what percent of hands he's really shoving, and as you find the conflicts I found, ask yourself if OP has taken a bit of storytelling liberty here. I suspect his play was far less than shoving literally every hand.

 

[Taghkanic]

In other words, his presence allows elements of both skill and chance to be factors in a game where both skill and chance are appropriate factors.

It's only introducing elements of skill and chance in the least interesting, simplified and rote sense.

If I were playing in a game with a guy like that I would fold everything but top 3% hands to his shoves, until I'd gotten a good sample size of hands he shoved that went to showdown. Then start calling wider enough to make it still profitable long-term.

It's not a complicated adjustment. Really kind of boring.

*But* the host wants to keep hosting a longer, slower game for regs who don't appreciate the antics. He's not obliged to let anyone in. And I'm sure the degen can find other games where his BINGO approach is more welcome.

 

[Mojo1312]

All the "cash game" posters are overlooking the 7 years of statistics the OP has built into the game. How do you judge time lasted? How do you get over the no rebuy principle?

Tournament poker and ring poker are two different animals. Playing without a net is more thrilling for some, while the unlimited winning potential is more thrilling for others. If the OP's core group doesn't like "All-in Jim", they're going to hate playing cash. You may as well tell the host to quit playing cards.

Having hosted a year round weekly cash game and a bi-monthly two table tourney during the winter, you make several excellent points that I agree with.

However, I am in alignment with Jim about baking in what is the "correct way" one should play.

I began playing poker (NLHE) in 2007, $20 buy-in, .25/.50 cent blinds. In late 2010 I was invited to join a weekly STT by two people that were part of my friends bar league. I quickly became the dominant player at their game. Staleness lead me to ask if they knew of anyone who hosted a cash game in the area.

That proved to be a life changing moment in my poker journey, for I met another cash player by the name of Dennis. After a few months I calculated his presence would inject some fun into the weekly STT. I had no idea at the time how right I was. We absolutely crushed that game. We would actually meet at the local pub after work on the evening of the tournament to discuss over drinks and wings how he wanted to end the tournament when it got down to the two of us - play it out, chop, split, etc.

After six months, the host disbanded the game. Four months later I started hosting my own weekly cash game while still playing at my alma mater cash game. Same players, playing the same game, for six years.

That initial game where it all began in 2007 was hands down the easiest game I have ever played in. On a good night I would make $300+ off of my $20 buy-in. Winning less than $160 (8x my buy-in) was a bad night. Longing for the glory days where Dennis and I would walk into a room together knowing full well the outcome, I got him a seat at the table.

As expected, we cleaned up - but that is when things fell apart. Dennis as it turns out, had a big heart. Seeing the disappointed faces and listening to players bemoaning their bad luck whenever he took their stack or a substantial portion of it, would smooth things over by walking them through his thought process -- pre-flop, post flop, turn and river. Worst of all, I couldn't stop him. No matter how much I beseeched him to quit sharing his thoughts on hands, he would go right back to playing the role of a gentle teacher the following week.

For six years that game treated me as if I was the greatest poker player in town. Good times, no worries. It was truly a great run - right up until my close friend Dennis ruined it with his free soliloquies. That one bad decision in the ensuing weeks and months of securing him a seat caused my win rate to drop by 45%.

I went from soaring like an eagle to feeding with the pigeons. (At least that is what it felt like, having my wings clipped by the diminished win-rate)

The moral of the story is that both of those early games I was a part of were self contained universes where every session was the same, nothing ever changed.

Pigeons.

 

[Jimulacrum]

It's only introducing elements of skill and chance in the least interesting, simplified and rote sense.

The host wants to host a longer, slower game for friends. He's not obliged to let anyone in. And I'm sure the degen can find other games where his BINGO approach is more welcome.

Your entire previous post was about how the LAG's presence dramatically alters the game dynamic in multiple ways. How is that "least interesting, simplified, and rote"?

It's actually a lot to adjust for in terms of game dynamics. As a player I have always felt that way about it, even if I wasn't always willing to admit it to myself.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The moral of the story is that both of those early games I was a part of were self contained universes where every session was the same, nothing ever changed.

Pigeons.

This can happen. I don't think it's altogether a bad thing. I can understand bemoaning the loss of your golden goose, but really, it was more of a maturing of your golden goose. It had to grow up some day. All it needed was Dennis, apparently.

 

[Mojo1312]

This can happen. I don't think it's altogether a bad thing. I can understand bemoaning the loss of your golden goose, but really, it was more of a maturing of your golden goose. It had to grow up some day. All it needed was Dennis, apparently.

Pigeons is not a pejorative. Rituals are an important aspect of life and can have their own rewards, especially when they are rooted in a social element that brings people together. On the other hand, sometimes it is good to break the chains that bind.

 

[ChipMonster]

Sounds easy -

1) if you don’t enjoy the person’s company, just stop inviting him.

2) if you enjoy his company, let him play his own game and embrace and accept. The beauty about NLHE is that one can play for their entire stack whenever they want to. Sounds like he’s somewhat exploiting the group playing nitty or just not very good and overplaying hands like Q6o, which I would welcome in a heartbeat. Maybe he’s using a bit of the “Kill Phil” strategy and feels as though he can’t play as well post flop so this is his only chance.

3) if you really can’t take the all in aspect of NLHE because it doesn’t fit with your tournament style, just switch to pot limit but it’s not really anyone’s place to tell anyone else how they should be playing their cards once they buy in.

 

[MatB]

I would just uninvite MatB and solve the problem that way.

You know, I had to check to make sure OP wasnt talking about me. Allgood. Carry on !

 

[MatB]

If I read OP correctly, other players drive a decent amount to sit in this NO rebuy tournament. No wonder they dont like all in pre shoves.
You've got them hobbled. No one is really playing poker as they are scared to call all ins, in case they are out and have to go home.


One possible solution... And this is only if you do enjoy the company of this maniac, if not just don’t invite them.
I play a small holdem tourney with some buddies who dont even use a cut card. We do a turbo tourney 6 or 7 minute blinds lasts about an hour, we play a couple of those and then play a larger bounty tourney with 12 or 13 minute blinds.
We get about 3 tourneys in of a night.
If someone wants to keep shoving pre, good luck, they can sit for an hour when they bust till the next one starts.

 

[Mojo1312]

One possible solution... And this is only if you do enjoy the company of this maniac, if not just uninvited them.
I play a small holdem tourney with some buddies who dont even use a cut card. We do a turbo tourney 6 or 7 minute blinds lasts about an hour, we play a couple of those and then play a larger bounty tourney with 12 or 13 minute blinds.
We get about 3 tourneys in of a night.
If someone wants to keep shoving pre, good luck, they can sit for an hour when they bust till the next one starts.

A second possible solution, and one that I strongly advocate, is to reach an agreement with the players in your group to all call Willy's early all-in pre-flop shoves. Pay out the winners, then start a new game. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Make sure to film the episode, especially Willy's expression - and post the video here. I will make the losers in your group whole. The laugh I will get from it will make it worth the money.

 

[merkong]

In addition to ever so slightly opening up my mindset on this and similar situations, my vocabulary after going through this thread is off the chart.

Look out Wordle and the NYT Crossword. I’m gonna jam on yo azz.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The funny thing is, even at a completely non social game, host will still ask me to adjust play. I've watched serious players squirm and bitch to change buy in rules because they've gotten stacked on repeat and want to "get their money back" from me. I suck at poker,

...and just like that, I scratch Barriej3 off my meet-up fantasy team roster.

 

[WedgeRock]

lifetime I'm up in Vegas, I'm up at home games, I'm up everywhere overall.

Delusional disorder is a condition in which a person has one or more fixed and persistent beliefs that are not based on reality.

 

[detroitdad]

I'm up everywhere overall

You must have blocked out your first meet up at my house lol

 

[merkong]

...and just like that, I scratch Barriej3 off my meet-up fantasy team roster.

lol. He’s a sniper.

 

[WedgeRock]

You must have blocked out your first meet up at my house lol

That's what I was thinking too. People falling over each other to get on the table with Barrie. And it wasn't aggroshoves, it was donkcalls mostly.

But who needs to be concerned with facts when weaving a tapestry of a fantastic story?

 

[detroitdad]

That's what I was thinking too. People falling over each other to get on the table with Barrie. And it wasn't aggroshoves, it was donkcalls mostly.

But who needs to be concerned with facts when weaving a tapestry of a fantastic story?

Jeff was a pleasure to have at my house. In his defense, this was his first exposure to a lot of these games. I have thanked him several times for funding my meet up

 

[WedgeRock]

Jeff was a pleasure to have at my house. In his defense, this was his first exposure to a lot of these games. I have thanked him several times for funding my meet up

I'm not suggesting he was anything other than a gentleman. Just rewriting history to say he's a winner everywhere with his aggroshove style is more than a bit disingenuous.

 

[JustinInMN]

A second possible solution, and one that I strongly advocate, is to reach an agreement with the players in your group to all call Willy's early all-in pre-flop shoves. Pay out the winners, then start a new game. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Make sure to film the episode, especially Willy's expression - and post the video here. I will make the losers in your group whole. The laugh I will get from it will make it worth the money.

To those that will point out that this is obviously collusion you are right. But at the same time, so would be trying to dictate strategy of otherwise legal actions within poker rules.

@merkong put this well

I refer you to exhibit A The Poker Constitution: Any two cards, for any amount, on any street.

(But I am still not clear on where you stand on should the player be disinvited or not. Though I respect you have pride in the list you have curated and do recognize that's a good hosts' responsibility.)

So again, if the group doesn't like this, you probably just need to make a rule, such as pot-limit pre, rather than go down the road of disinviting players. I get that has to happen from time to time for many different reasons. But disinviting players for strategic reasons is going to give "the core" too much power and eventually kill recruitment, so really play it carefully.

 

[BarrieJ3]

That's what I was thinking too. People falling over each other to get on the table with Barrie. And it wasn't aggroshoves, it was donkcalls mostly.

But who needs to be concerned with facts when weaving a tapestry of a fantastic story?

Lol I don’t believe anywhere did I say I was “good” at poker, in fact I think if you search my history you’ll find that I regularly would say I suck at poker.

I still have no clue at all where I’m at post flop in hold ‘em, I’ve had plenty of additional $2-3k losses since that original at Bill’s, etc.

I'm not suggesting he was anything other than a gentleman. Just rewriting history to say he's a winner everywhere with his aggroshove style is more than a bit disingenuous.

Not a winner everywhere no doubt. Overall since I started tracking I am positive. I would say it’s due to a pretty small sample size since I don’t get to play often, and leans on Vegas trips where I’ve yet to not leave overall up from poker on any single trip (I almost always lose all winnings on either roulette, sports betting, or harvesting racks).

And I would say that what my intent was behind my post was that people *should* want to play with people like me. Not just cause I’m good looking, but because I’m there to give action and money!

I agree that my sentiment was poorly written no doubt. Lol didn’t mean to make it seem how it seems.

 

[WedgeRock]

I'm up everywhere overall.

Not a winner everywhere no doubt.

Add split personality to the working diagnosis...

 

[BarrieJ3]

You must have blocked out your first meet up at my house lol

I would do it again in a heart beat!

First time ever playing poker that wasn’t a neighborhood $20 tournament with dice chips. I was so apprehensive to randomly drive hours away to someone’s basement with that much money in my pocket.

• My first time playing within the first hour I’m listening to everyone disagree on rules of shodugi vs another dugi, and it’s so far beyond my understanding.
• I spent the week before the meetup practicing the right form of shuffling so I didn’t muck it all up.
• Lol I still remember Matt asking me where I play and stuff, and I’m like how do I explain I have no clue wtf is going on. We were on your porch and he’s like ohhhh I like it, you’re a guy that will just fire off multiple bullets. And I’m like oh yeah for sure (I had no clue what bullets were).
• Going back to the hotel from the first night at Marc’s, I took out the cash and put it on the bed. I was dumbfounded. I was like wtf, this is crazy. I just call everything and get to straight print cash. Lmao and then proceed to drop like $2k playing .25/25 circus the next day.

Playing your first poker and even better meetup is like an amazing book or movie. You wish you could forget it all, just so you could experience it again for the first time.

 

[Taghkanic]

To those who argue that it's a legal play, well sure.

But there are lots of things that one can do at a poker table which are technically legal, but also likely to get you disinvited from a longrunning home game.

For example, if a player insists on tanking for 60+ seconds on every street of every hand, even when he has 72o UTG, that would be perfectly legal.

But if he kept doing it even after the host told him how much it was annoying the rest of the group, that would be more than enough grounds for disinviting him. It is legal, but it may cause the host to lose players and eventually ruin the game.

 

[merkong]

To those that will point out that this is obviously collusion you are right. But at the same time, so would be trying to dictate strategy of otherwise legal actions within poker rules.

@merkong put this well


(But I am still not clear on where you stand on should the player be disinvited or not. Though I respect you have pride in the list you have curated and do recognize that's a good hosts' responsibility.)

So again, if the group doesn't like this, you probably just need to make a rule, such as pot-limit pre, rather than go down the road of disinviting players. I get that has to happen from time to time for many different reasons. But disinviting players for strategic reasons is going to give "the core" too much power and eventually kill recruitment, so really play it carefully.

No, I since reconsidered my position. I would suss it out. I suspect that in the extreme, jamming nonstop is not an acceptable strategy even in the perps eyes. I would figure more an asshole move and possibly even an angle shoot.

My incredible powers of deduction and Jedi mind tricks would have the truth in approximately 1 minute (earth time). Based on my determination, I’d either allow it or pinch their neck Spock style and call the Mother Ship to have them retrieved for spare parts.

 

[Highli99]

Guys don't tap the glass. And all this strategy talk is boring. How about a round of straddles?

 

[Styleman]

Wow! I get busy for a day and this thread blows up. I still need to read all the responses carefully but I want to say a few things.

I appreciate all the responses, even the ones that are critical of our game. A few notes:

1) None of us are pros, for a few of us, this is the only poker they play over the course of a month. As many of us know, volume cures variance but if you waited all month to play in this specific game, and the results of that game matter to you (because statistics are tracked into a league standing, bragging rights, money is secondary to everything else in addition to not wanting to travel for 2 hours to only play for 10 minutes as well as this being a social outing to catch up with friends we may only see once per month). It all adds up into a complicated situation.

2) As the host, I understand it's the right of every player to jam every single hand if they wish. I will admit it's annoying but it's legal play. That's why I struggle with talking to this player or banning them because it makes us overly sensitive. To add further context, the people who are upset - the main complaint is the player is non committal to the length of the game. What I mean by that is. He telegraphs his all-ins by saying he's tired. What we translate that to mean is "I have a weak hand, come take my chips if you want the early chip lead so I can go home and sleep". In a recent game, he did exactly this with a garbage hand preflop, got called with a much better hand and the weak hand won. Of course that's poker, 7-2 offsuit can win against pocket aces or any other hand. That's NOT where we struggle. The pain comes when a guy who really wanted to be there to play is now out of the game, and the guy who jammed is now actually visibly upset because he can't go home and sleep now as per his intent. As the host, I wish I had offered up an option to forfeit your chips and go home and sleep before this happened. The concern is if you REALLY don't want to be here (and I don't believe it was an act) then why show up at all?

3) I admittedly overstated the number of all-ins, as one person here suspected. A more realistic number is 2 - 5 times per blind level (which is 30 minutes) but we had seen as many as 4 back to back shoves, and these were close to full starting stack shoves, not low stack desperation shoves. I wanted to make that change much sooner but the edit button on the original post had disappeared and couldn't figure out if I could still change it. I apologize for that.

I have more to say once I have a chance to read all the replies in more detail. Thanks again for everything.

 

[ekricket]

Wow! I get busy for a day and this thread blows up. I still need to read all the responses carefully but I want to say a few things.

I appreciate all the responses, even the ones that are critical of our game. A few notes:

1) None of us are pros, for a few of us, this is the only poker they play over the course of a month. As many of us know, volume cures variance but if you waited all month to play in this specific game, and the results of that game matter to you (because statistics are tracked into a league standing, bragging rights, money is secondary to everything else in addition to not wanting to travel for 2 hours to only play for 10 minutes as well as this being a social outing to catch up with friends we may only see once per month). It all adds up into a complicated situation.

2) As the host, I understand it's the right of every player to jam every single hand if they wish. I will admit it's annoying but it's legal play. That's why I struggle with talking to this player or banning them because it makes us overly sensitive. To add further context, the people who are upset - the main complaint is the player is non committal to the length of the game. What I mean by that is. He telegraphs his all-ins by saying he's tired. What we translate that to mean is "I have a weak hand, come take my chips if you want the early chip lead so I can go home and sleep". In a recent game, he did exactly this with a garbage hand preflop, got called with a much better hand and the weak hand won. Of course that's poker, 7-2 offsuit can win against pocket aces or any other hand. That's NOT where we struggle. The pain comes when a guy who really wanted to be there to play is now out of the game, and the guy who jammed is now actually visibly upset because he can't go home and sleep now as per his intent. As the host, I wish I had offered up an option to forfeit your chips and go home and sleep before this happened. The concern is if you REALLY don't want to be here (and I don't believe it was an act) then why show up at all?

3) I admittedly overstated the number of all-ins, as one person here suspected. A more realistic number is 2 - 5 times per blind level (which is 30 minutes) but we had seen as many as 4 back to back shoves, and these were close to full starting stack shoves, not low stack desperation shoves. I wanted to make that change much sooner but the edit button on the original post had disappeared and couldn't figure out if I could still change it. I apologize for that.

I have more to say once I have a chance to read all the replies in more detail. Thanks again for everything.

Suggest he just go home and blind him out.

 

[merkong]

Suggest he just go home and blind him out.

I say let him stay, fire everyone else, and play him heads up for pink slips.

 

[JustinInMN]

Wow! I get busy for a day and this thread blows up. I still need to read all the responses carefully but I want to say a few things.

I appreciate all the responses, even the ones that are critical of our game.

Again, welcome to PCF, we don't always blow up the threads, but when we do, buckle up .

To add further context, the people who are upset - the main complaint is the player is non committal to the length of the game. What I mean by that is. He telegraphs his all-ins by saying he's tired. What we translate that to mean is "I have a weak hand, come take my chips if you want the early chip lead so I can go home and sleep".

You know focusing on this (as opposed to all in frequency) I think has some merit. This is essentially a chip dump which is a huge no-no in tournaments.

As the host, I wish I had offered up an option to forfeit your chips and go home and sleep before this happened. The concern is if you REALLY don't want to be here (and I don't believe it was an act) then why show up at all?

Yeah I think this is a problem. I think your players would prefer that you just withdraw him from the tournament if that's what he wants to do. Also maybe this player would prefer a cash format. So maybe you turn occasional games into cash and keep the tournament regular, but don't invite him to the tournament anymore.

I admittedly overstated the number of all-ins, as one person here suspected. A more realistic number is 2 - 5 times per blind level (which is 30 minutes) but we had seen as many as 4 back to back shoves, and these were close to full starting stack shoves, not low stack desperation shoves.

That's still a lot, but again, I think your other comments indicate this may be a secondary issue. In my opinion it should be. The first issue is he is announcing a willingness to dump chips and it puts one player at an advantage. I think this should be the first basis of a conversation and it is a behavior that merits being un-invited if it continues.

 

[upNdown]

The first issue is he is announcing a willingness to dump chips and it puts one player at an advantage.

You know the guy could turn around and announce he wants to go home when he has aces, and double up.
As far as putting one player at an advantage, that's the luck of the draw; that's poker.

I'm not arguing that this guy doesn't suck. He seems to at the very least kinda suck for tournaments. But the more I think about this, the more I think the people just need to accept this wildcard guy and either try to take him out, or try to avoid him, or just play poker. I'm gonna put this next point in bold, all caps, because I think it's important - POKER PLAYERS WHINE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT EVERYTHING. If they weren't bitching about this guy, they'd be bitching about cold cards, a bad beat, or the damn weather.