Can you enjoy/support an artist/athlete/public figure whose actions or politics you find deplorable? (2 Viewers)

I think there is a big difference between being Billy "White Shoes" Johnson the showman and the "all about me" attitude I alluded to that permeates pro sports today. I place a connection between today's attitude, false masculinity, and the crime associated with pro sports today. I like a team celebration as much as the next guy but the first pumping pointing to one's self in the end zone is telling about the general attitude.

That's fair. I don't agree, but I can understand why some people feel that way.

But back to my question - would you refuse to watch the games if the players didn't engage in those antics on the field, but still womanized behind the scenes and/or committed crimes?
 
Back to the topic at hand.

Public Figure - World SOHE Champion

Acts I find deplorable - Supporting Baltimore Franchises and Duke Athletics (murder, bleach-wasting, condemning casino elevators, rape, refusing handshakes)
 
That's fair. I don't agree, but I can understand why some people feel that way.

But back to my question - would you refuse to watch the games if the players didn't engage in those antics on the field, but still womanized behind the scenes and/or committed crimes?

It's hard to say really in all fairness. I can say it is true for the NBA 100% but I'll still watch my Steelers and Broncos when I get a chance.

EDIT: I also think that it depends on the crimes. I'm not a person who supports any kind of drug war. I love pro cycling. I was disappointed in Lance because he was a dick, could care less about the doping. Anyone with half a brain knew just about everyone who was a top rider juiced.
 
Great question! This one hits a little close to home.

I grew up listening to Bill Cosby, first on dad's vinyl collection, then on VHS, then on The Cosby Show, and ultimately live & in person. I'm no prude, but I think it takes an additional element of skill to make a body of people laugh while keeping swearing and crassness to a minimum, and Cosby could do that. I showed up for the comedy; I stayed for the craftsmanship.

Then all the evidence about his misgivings w/the womenfolk started coming to light, and the pedestal that I had put Cosby upon came crashing down. There's little in this world that takes me from zero to white-hot rage than sexual assault. I've seen far too many of my friends deal with it in their lives and the hellish reality that the scars frequently lead to. Nothing's been proven in a court of law, but there's far too much evidence out there against the man now for me to believe that *nothing* happened, so I'm left with reconciling the image I had of Cosby with the reality that he's likely a rapist.

I can't support that, I can't support him, and while I haven't yet, I'll be deleting all his tracks from my iPod simply because hearing his bits creates more cognitive dissonance in my head than I want to deal with when listening to comedy.

To muddy the waters slightly, let's turn to the Sandusky/Paterno/Penn State thing. I was born in Ohio which means I was raised on football and Ohio State. Frankly that team is the one I'd be focusing since they've had their fair share of thugs and idiots come through the program and Tressell cheated his way out of big college football effectively for life, but on the relative scale of shit the Penn State scandal makes Ohio State's trail of past miscreants look benign. Fact is, as long as they're not playing OSU, I love me some Penn State & Joe Paterno. I enjoyed watching their teams of the late 80's and early to mid-90's, and I think Joe's probably positively impacted more young men in his lifetime than the vast majority of our world's population.

And then Sandusky's crimes came to light, and with it the legend of Paterno started to unravel a bit. There's no doubt in my mind that Paterno new/saw something that Sandusky was doing at some point and that he knew Sandusky's actions were both illegal and dispicable. I'm also quite sure that Paterno didn't do enough to make sure those actions came to light at that time or to protect those boys. Do I think less of Paterno for it? Yes. Do I think of him as I do Cosby? No. Would I have supported Penn State if Paterno were allowed to continue coaching? Hmmm...that's the real question for me. I chewed on this long and hard while the investigation/trial was going on, and where I ultimately ended up is that I don't think I would have stoppped rooting for Penn State or Paterno had he been younger & remained there. My suspicion is that he regreted not doing more, that his lack of action is not in keeping with his true character, and that a couple of (admittedly terrible) mistakes don't constitute a pattern of awful nor are they enough to make me toss asside his decades of what I perceive to be good work with young people.

For a moment, though, let's say that I think Paterno is indeed an awful person and that Penn State should give him the boot, but doesn't. Do I still root for the laundry even though the leaders are dreadful? Probably not. At that point I'd probably label the school as condoning child abuse until both Paterno and the leaders were removed from power and the school did what they could to make things right.

To speak to some of the examples thrown out by others....Polanski? Nope, can't do it. I've seen none of his films, nor will I. Allen? I don't feel quite as strongly, but I still feel a little creepy when I see one of his films.

As for artists who take a stand on a social/political issue...for the most part I really don't care. I may think they're silly for supporting/not supporting something, but rarely if ever do I go so far as to expunge their work from my life for such reasons. As evidence, I offer the litany of artists who boycotted Arizona - my current home state - when we passed SB1070. As a 30+ year Arizonan I hate illegal immigration, but that bill was a special blend of idiocy and had no business being passed. But do I care that artists and other such folks boycotted my state? Not really. I thought it was silly for most of them to do so because most of them didn't fully understand nor appreciate the problems it was attempting to address or why the state congress passed it in the first place. By and large it was a bunch of kneejerk reactions that ammounted to "You're a bunch of racists so we're not going to your state," and if they believed that to be true then I applaud them for exercising their rights. I didn't boycott them, though, and didn't think too much of it beyond that. Silly, largely ineffectual, and largely needless, but whatever. Go make art.

And honestly, a lot of art does have political/social underpinings or inspirations. Take Springstein for example. If you were a fan of The Boss in NC before he cancelled his show, why would you stop being a fan afterwards? He's never been one to shy away from social issues. Same with Clooney. If you were a fan of his work and a conservative before he started doing six-figure dinners for Democrats, were you not aware of his liberal/social work prior to that? Why would a politically-motivated dinner make you more upset than his other politically/socially-motivated work?

In short, I think it's probably a little silly to boycott artists or athletes based on their politics or social stances since we all have beliefs and don't want/need to be skewered for those. I do draw a line, however, at murder and crimes against women and children.
 
So getting back to the original question, what if someone you root for does something that while not illegal, is something that you might find morally objectionable? Like for instance your star quarterback dumping his 8 month pregnant girlfriend for a lingerie model?
 
I have boycotted a few establishments because owners choose to discriminate. You want to hang it out there, that's fine. You may drum up some business from supporters and lose business from opponents. It's the choice of an owner.

Crimes are up to the courts to determine guilt and punish. Pro athletes that stay clean are admirable. The rest are just pro athletes.

Actors with opposing political viewpoints... It depends on how good of an actor they are, and how stupid they sound when voicing an opposing point of view. I don't like Woody Harrelson, and anything he is in has a lesser chance of me watching it because he's in it. He's also not a very good actor (IMHO), so I'm not missing much. However I won't avoid everything he's in altogether - because I enjoyed the Hunger Games books, I'll watch the movies.
 
So getting back to the original question, what if someone you root for does something that while not illegal, is something that you might find morally objectionable? Like for instance your star quarterback dumping his 8 month pregnant girlfriend for a lingerie model?
Great call, I personally have no problem with this whoever you may be talking about.

another moral question, if your QB looks like a Sesame St character, are you then considered a child and/or pedophile for rooting for him?

joe-flacco-bert.png
 
I think there is a big difference between being Billy "White Shoes" Johnson the showman and the "all about me" attitude I alluded to that permeates pro sports today. I place a connection between today's attitude, false masculinity, and the crime associated with pro sports today. I like a team celebration as much as the next guy but the first pumping pointing to one's self in the end zone is telling about the general attitude.

Ive thought about this at times, and certain days I share your sentiment, while others I think Im just being naive. I too grew up in the golden era of NBA with Bird Vs. Magic, but when I really stop to think about it was it all that different than todays game? The Lakers were "Showtime" and Magic was banging everyone on the planet. Was Bill Laimbeer any less of a thug than Allen Iverson, or do the clothes make the man? Were Da Bears any different or less ego-centric than any players in todays era...Ditka will still shill for anyone who is willing to give him a buck
 
Ive thought about this at times, and certain days I share your sentiment, while others I think Im just being naive. I too grew up in the golden era of NBA with Bird Vs. Magic, but when I really stop to think about it was it all that different than todays game? The Lakers were "Showtime" and Magic was banging everyone on the planet. Was Bill Laimbeer any less of a thug than Allen Iverson, or do the clothes make the man? Were Da Bears any different or less ego-centric than any players in todays era...Ditka will still shill for anyone who is willing to give him a buck
 
Some good points made by many here. I try to stay away from political commentary and I think I try to have a good moral compass. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. I absolutely hate the politics of Sarah Palin. Would I go pay to see her pole dance at Clermont Lounge totally nude? I'd wait in line for tickets during a blizzard.
 
Think each case/individual needs to or will be judged separately. Opinion is always going to be influenced by an individual's own set of beliefs as to how much is forgiven and forgotten - I'm a Ravens fan so I can get past Ray Lewis or my priest is ok, so I can forgive the systematic sexual abuse of minors etc.

Having said that despite being a boxing tragic, I am constantly surprised by the continued acceptance of Mike Tyson of late. For a convicted rapist, ear biter, admitted wife beater and generally terrible human. Hey let's not have Mel Gibson in the hangover for his behaviour, but to then have Tyson? really?
 
Some good points made by many here. I try to stay away from political commentary and I think I try to have a good moral compass. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. I absolutely hate the politics of Sarah Palin. Would I go pay to see her pole dance at Clermont Lounge totally nude? I'd wait in line for tickets during a blizzard.

I don't know about Sarah, but Im pretty sure Bristol was there last week
 
Ive thought about this at times, and certain days I share your sentiment, while others I think Im just being naive. I too grew up in the golden era of NBA with Bird Vs. Magic, but when I really stop to think about it was it all that different than todays game? The Lakers were "Showtime" and Magic was banging everyone on the planet. Was Bill Laimbeer any less of a thug than Allen Iverson, or do the clothes make the man? Were Da Bears any different or less ego-centric than any players in todays era...Ditka will still shill for anyone who is willing to give him a buck

Good point but I still see it as different times. Perhaps a naive view but I'm curious if there are credible stats comparing crime rates. Being a man ho is not nice but isn't the same as wife beating, rape, murder, dog fighting, etc. When I mentioned the real stories of NBA wives, I was most offended by the allegations of wife beating, statutory rape, etc.
 
I think the question should really be? Do you support? Not can you support, lets not deal with hypotheticals. Tell us someone who has an undoubtedly questionable criminal or scummy background that you still support no matter what.

Examples: Jared Fogle, Bill Cosby, Jerry Sandusky, Greg Hardy, Mike Tyson, Johnny Manziel, Martin Skreli,
 
As for artists who take a stand on a social/political issue...for the most part I really don't care. I may think they're silly for supporting/not supporting something, but rarely if ever do I go so far as to expunge their work from my life for such reasons. As evidence, I offer the litany of artists who boycotted Arizona - my current home state - when we passed SB1070. As a 30+ year Arizonan I hate illegal immigration, but that bill was a special blend of idiocy and had no business being passed. But do I care that artists and other such folks boycotted my state? Not really. I thought it was silly for most of them to do so because most of them didn't fully understand nor appreciate the problems it was attempting to address or why the state congress passed it in the first place. By and large it was a bunch of kneejerk reactions that ammounted to "You're a bunch of racists so we're not going to your state," and if they believed that to be true then I applaud them for exercising their rights. I didn't boycott them, though, and didn't think too much of it beyond that. Silly, largely ineffectual, and largely needless, but whatever. Go make art.

Another related question I've thought quite a bit about over the past week or so. I'm not sure where I'm at with regard to artists "boycotting" states where crazy legislation occurs.

When I first heard Bruce (who, in my mind, is a living legend) was cancelling his NC show, I thought, "Good for him to take a stand" and wasn't at all surprised given his activism. And then I heard that Against Me (a band I really like with a trans lead singer) decided to continue on and play the dates it had scheduled in NC stating that they were showing up to support the many people in the state who had nothing to do with an do not support the legislation at issue. That makes a lot of sense to me, too.

Tough choice because it feels completely wrong to paint an entire state with the brush forced upon it by the minority (or in some cases the majority) of bigots there as well. On the other hand, sometimes there are casualties in activism and maybe one here is that some innocent fan doesn't get to see Bruce's show.

The one thing I really don't get is states banning publicly funded travel to a state that passes some ignorant law. I don't understand how that's workable if there's a reasonable, unrelated reason for a public official to travel to that state.

Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. I absolutely hate the politics of Sarah Palin. Would I go pay to see her pole dance at Clermont Lounge totally nude? I'd wait in line for tickets during a blizzard.

LOL IRL. And agreed.

I don't know about Sarah, but Im pretty sure Bristol was there last week

Works for me. At least she doesn't use birth control like some kind of whore.
 
Good point but I still see it as different times. Perhaps a naive view but I'm curious if there are credible stats comparing crime rates. Being a man ho is not nice but isn't the same as wife beating, rape, murder, dog fighting, etc. When I mentioned the real stories of NBA wives, I was most offended by the allegations of wife beating, statutory rape, etc.

Definitely different times, and huge difference in pay scale. No ESPN 24 hour coverage, and no super agents trying to monetize every action. I have no clue about crime stats, but I theorize that theres probably not much difference. You read any historical baseball books and you quickly realize that many of the greats of the game were not of the highest character.
 
Definitely different times, and huge difference in pay scale. No ESPN 24 hour coverage, and no super agents trying to monetize every action. I have no clue about crime stats, but I theorize that theres probably not much difference. You read any historical baseball books and you quickly realize that many of the greats of the game were not of the highest character.

Absolutely true. I spent my childhood reading biographies of baseball greats and even the most sanitized versions of those biographies were filled with horrendous shit.
 
....The interviewee said something about not being able to say the word "tranny" anymore. Marc said - and I'm paraphrasing - "You can say 'tranny' all you want. You just have to live with the fact that you'll end up only be hanging around people who are comfortable with you saying 'tranny'."

... and auto dealerships, garages, and racetracks.

I mean, I know I'm old, but that's the only meaning of "tranny" I've ever heard before this thread.
 
.... if Jerry Jones signed Michael Vick and he saw one minute of playing time, I'm taking several thousand dollars worth of Cowboys memorabilia, putting it in a box and topping it with a Romo jersey with my turd tied up in it, and shipping it first class USPS to Jerry at Valley Ranch.

Geez, considered on a global scale of all the atrocities that occur world-wide, Michael Vick's offenses are about as serious as putting ketchup on ice cream. He's just a dumb fuck.
 
You're in an extra trolling mood today, I wonder why?

You consider that to be trolling? I'd say that picture pretty much sums up what's being discussed here. Ray Lewis in any context, especially employed as a football commentator, is an instant channel-changer and money saver for me. He's considered in a class with OJ, everywhere but around Baltimore.
 
In short, I think it's probably a little silly to boycott artists or athletes based on their politics or social stances since we all have beliefs and don't want/need to be skewered for those. I do draw a line, however, at murder and crimes against women and children.

Yeah, everybody has opinions, and I don't see any reason why celebrities shouldn't voice theirs. What I dislike is that uninformed people will vote for a candidate for no other reason than he/she is endorsed by [insert name of celebrity here]. Who's more irresponsible -- the celebrity or the idiot voter?

Since this is a poker and chip forum, we should mention former online poker players who play at the Venetian, knowing that some of the income generated by the Venetian will be used by Sheldon Adelson to fight online poker.
 
You consider that to be trolling? I'd say that picture pretty much sums up what's being discussed here. Ray Lewis in any context, especially employed as a football commentator, is an instant channel-changer and money saver for me. He's considered in a class with OJ, everywhere but around Baltimore.

Ray Lewis is an awful commentator, I agree. And i wouldnt call him a great human being (although I never met the guy, so I don't know). But if you truly think he murdered anyone it shows me that you're uninformed in what actually happened that night. I didn't argue with manamongkids because I know he's just trying to get a rise out of me, but if you really want a quick summary of what happened here's a good link:

http://mic.com/articles/23665/did-r...ed-football-fans-for-over-a-decade#.GSV14mZyr
 

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