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Can you enjoy/support an artist/athlete/public figure whose actions or politics you find deplorable? (2 Viewers)

jbutler said:
Tough choice because it feels completely wrong to paint an entire state with the brush forced upon it by the minority (or in some cases the majority) of bigots there as well. On the other hand, sometimes there are casualties in activism and maybe one here is that some innocent fan doesn't get to see Bruce's show.
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I think the whole "paint everybody with the same brush" problem is why I don't let the little things bother me.

I have my personal limits on who I would associate with in business and personal life, same with limits on who I would "support" that was a sports/political/entertainment figure....but in all honesty those limits on people not in by direct circle of friends/family are pretty high for anything to do with things that don't directly impact me. I wouldn't want someone saying the word nigger around me every five minutes but I also wouldn't want a professional "i'm offended" victim around me either, so consequently those are not the people I consider friends and family. However, when it comes to things like being entertained by a singer or watching a sports team I am not going to delve into personal politics or dumb opinions to impact me consuming their product or rooting for a team they happen to be on.

I think Green Day's politics are laughable in a lot of spots, but holy shit I loved "American Idiot" and can listen to that album non stop right now. I'm a person that believes homosexuality is someones personal business and could never in my life support a law that would limit a gay persons freedoms, but I'm also going to enjoy one of those Chick-fil-A sandwiches since my area got one last summer. Because I like the music Green Day makes or the chicken Chick-fil-A makes does not align me with their points of view.

I am very comfortable separating the two, this world is far to big and you are going to offend far to many people by just going about your life the best way you know how, even unintentionally, to worry about things like a certain players or ceos view point. An example is in this thread, in the first couple of posts a few members used the word "thug" in describing what they don't like in pro sports. Cool, that's your view point, I get it, I may even agree with some of your finer points.....buuuut I hope the posters who used the word "thug" realize that you are actually saying "nigger", according to Richard Sherman anyway:

Do I think that's what they were saying? No. Would some people, a good number of people actually judging by the support Richard Sherman got after he made his comments, believe they were being racist with those comments? Absolutely. Now imagine there are people here who would not read the posts made by anyone using the word "thug" to describe people, how much sense would all that make considering what was actually said? I feel like that's the kind of pissing in the wind people try to do when they take too big of a moral high ground in situations like these, the worlds too big to keep it all straight and sometimes cheering for a football team and listening to a song is actually just what it is, entertainment.


That being said, Woody Allen has to be one of the most over rated figures in entertainment history, I would definitely support a ban on him for whatever reason. ;)
 
Chippy McChiperson said:
Ray Lewis is an awful commentator, I agree. And i wouldnt call him a great human being (although I never met the guy, so I don't know). But if you truly think he murdered anyone it shows me that you're uninformed in what actually happened that night. I didn't argue with manamongkids because I know he's just trying to get a rise out of me, but if you really want a quick summary of what happened here's a good link:

http://mic.com/articles/23665/did-r...ed-football-fans-for-over-a-decade#.GSV14mZyr
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of course he didnt kill anyone, he was dressed too nice to kill anyone. Case closed :whistle: :whistling:

http://www.tmz.com/2015/10/20/ray-lewis-i-was-dressed-too-nice-to-kill-on-night-of-murder/
 
bergs said:
I can answer from a sports perspective. I think everyone has a line that can't be crossed and where it's drawn differs for everyone. I'm still a Cowboys fan even though our brain-addled owner signed several thugs with suspected or confirmed criminal ties. I didn't support the individual player, but I still support the franchise. But if Jerry Jones signed Michael Vick and he saw one minute of playing time, I'm taking several thousand dollars worth of Cowboys memorabilia, putting it in a box and topping it with a Romo jersey with my turd tied up in it, and shipping it first class USPS to Jerry at Valley Ranch.
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You obviously don't find dog fighting/abuse worse than physically assaulting someone i.e. greg hardy. I pretty much stopped watching and paying attention the minute they signed him. Life-long Cowboy fan dating back to 1977 and can name most starters from every team through the Jimmy Johnson era. Were you close to shipping your Cowboy merch after Harding's signing?

After watching the movie Concussion, I'm pretty much putting the entire NFL on the shelf. I lived in Pittsburgh during the Steel Curtain reign of terror and what the NFL did and denied is certainly worth one's ire.

Good movie though and definitely worth a watch.
 
Chippy McChiperson said:
Ray Lewis is an awful commentator, I agree. And i wouldnt call him a great human being (although I never met the guy, so I don't know). But if you truly think he murdered anyone it shows me that you're uninformed in what actually happened that night....
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From what I've read, nothing that happened that night rises to the level of "murder." Abysmally stupid in his associations and delusional about what he could get away with once the shit hit the fan, certainly.

BTW, on-topic, I still like Tricky Dick Nixon.
 
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My wife refuse to watch anything Tom Cruise is in because he is a giant ass hat. Does that count?

Personally I draw the line at assault. Anything there and worse they can F off.

Locally I support an afl team called the Roos. Years ago one of the greatest players of the game and a Roos player was caught having intercourse with a teammates wife. The team dropped him as quickly as possible but he is still regarded as a legend of the club. IMO personal lives and views should have no impact on the player/actor/person as a whole. But seriously assault/rape/murder someone and you deserved to be drawn and quartered, along with anyone who hires them.
 
Meddler2 said:
Um, no thanks. I'd we heard everything people muttered, there'd be nobody left.
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Totally agree and exactly my point. But we all have to pretend to be totally mortified when some athlete yells an expletive.
 
jbutler said:
Totally agree and exactly my point. But we all have to pretend to be totally mortified when some athlete yells an expletive.
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Yup. This goes back to my original statement. I assume pro athletes are at least 50% douchey in some way. I still watch football.

I've spent a significant amount of time with 2 different NFL players. One who played in one of the first few super bowls and one who played for 5 years in the 2000s. Both were super nice guys of outstanding character. I still think the NFL is probably full of douches. Being an elite athlete gets you treated differently by society, and that has to have some kind of effect on at least a big chunk of them.
 
I have been thinking about this exact subject recently myself. I have had my Zune (yeah...a Zune...fuck off ;) ) on random the last couple weeks and one particular band, Lost Prophets, has come up a couple times. It is not a band I select when I want to listen to something specific because the lead singer was convicted of child molestation several years ago. The connection I had with the music is still there and I love their songs, but if I hear them for more than a song or two I start thinking of the lead singer and have to turn it off.

Same thing with Cosby. Before the allegations started coming to light I had it in the back of my head to go back and watch/listen to some of his old stuff to see how it held up. One of the very first comedy specials I had seen and part of the reason I became hooked on stand up was Himself. I have resisted going back and listening to his stuff now because I don't want those memories to be even more associated with all the things that have come out.

Sports I have had a loose relationship with over the years. I watched the NBA during the Bull's epic run with Jordan, but when Ron Artest jumped in the stands and started wailing on a spectator during a Pacers game and didn't get perma-banned from the NBA I immediately stopped watching the NBA. Baseball I fell out of love with many many years ago, after all I am a Cubs fan (though at least things are finally looking up for them). I am also a Bears fan so that should tell you where I am at with watching football. ;)

For movies/TV I pay very little attention to celebrity gossip/news stories. I know about the bigger stories like Polanski, Allen, Gibson, etc, but I don't watch movies because of a certain director/actor. Not a fan of Woody Allen so that doesn't affect me much. Polanski should be in prison, but I have enjoyed a couple of his films. Gibson's personal views don't align with mine, but he has made some great stuff also. In the case of movies/TV it is easier to disassociate the character from the person, at least for me.

As far as artists cancelling shows in states that are passing hate inspired laws I am torn but mostly support what they are doing. A case can be made for either side. If the artist plays the show they have a huge platform to make a statement against the laws. If they don't play the show enough people might get pissed off enough to actually take action and stand up for themselves and the political process. The more people that oppose these laws, the less likely they are to be passed or for the people that champion them to be re-elected.

I think PC culture has run absolutely amok and is showing no signs of slowing. Context and intent mean everything when something is said/written. For example, what Shaw said is wrong and shouldn't have been said. Do I think he should have to apologize? No...why? Because until Shaw does something that shows he is actually a hateful bigot I will not believe he is one for calling some dude a faggot or for saying something off color during an emotionally charged game. I think South Park has done an excellent job taking shots at PC culture since they started, but the last couple seasons have been absolutely genius in bringing the ridiculousness of it front and center. Safe spaces, micro-aggressions, misrepresenting what free speech is/means, etc...GTFO with that shit. You are not going to make it very far in life if you have to go running for your safe space every time your perfect little PC bubble gets popped.
 
I'm torn on PC behavior. On the on hand, I believe that behaving in a PC fashion is just executing basic decency to not pile on more derogatory behavior towards a group of people who have seen enough abuse or oppression already in their lifetime.

On the other hand, I can recognize when the intent behind someone using the word gay or fag has no basis in hatred or homophobia, and comes from cultural exposure as kids. Where there is no hate, it's hard for me to be offended. But it's easy for me to say that. I'm not part of an oppressed class of any kind.

Anyway, I try to avoid charged language, except for obvious comic effect, and don't hold it against others when I know they're not full of hate.
 
12thMan said:
An example is in this thread, in the first couple of posts a few members used the word "thug" in describing what they don't like in pro sports. Cool, that's your view point, I get it, I may even agree with some of your finer points.....buuuut I hope the posters who used the word "thug" realize that you are actually saying "nigger", according to Richard Sherman anyway:

Do I think that's what they were saying? No. Would some people, a good number of people actually judging by the support Richard Sherman got after he made his comments, believe they were being racist with those comments? Absolutely. Now imagine there are people here who would not read the posts made by anyone using the word "thug" to describe people, how much sense would all that make considering what was actually said? I feel like that's the kind of pissing in the wind people try to do when they take too big of a moral high ground in situations like these, the worlds too big to keep it all straight and sometimes cheering for a football team and listening to a song is actually just what it is, entertainment.


That being said, Woody Allen has to be one of the most over rated figures in entertainment history, I would definitely support a ban on him for whatever reason. ;)
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I can see how people can make the thug = n***** connection but I don't see it that way at all. It's like making the connection between ice cream consumption and summer time drowning deaths to me. David Robinson isn't a thug, he's black. Neither is Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, etc. Don't know anything about Sherman or most NFL criminal activity. Probably plenty of thugs from every ethnicity in the league too...I don't pay enough attention to try and identify them as I've lost interest in the league.
 
Trust me slisk, I in no way thought you were being a racist while using coded words for your hate, just pointing out the absurdity of it all sometimes.
 
slisk250 said:
I can see how people can make the thug = n***** connection but I don't see it that way at all. It's like making the connection between ice cream consumption and summer time drowning deaths to me. David Robinson isn't a thug, he's black. Neither is Walter Payton, Barry Sanders, etc. Don't know anything about Sherman or most NFL criminal activity. Probably plenty of thugs from every ethnicity in the league too...I don't pay enough attention to try and identify them as I've lost interest in the league.
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I could see it as well, but thats not how I feel personally. Thug=someone who has a history of doing thuggish things; carrying weapons, beating up significant others, run-ins with the law, or habitually going against the rules of their respective team/company or the laws set forth by the government
 
tommythecat said:
The microsoft version of the ipod. Microsoft touted it as the ipod killer in their marketing...it obviously didn't kill the ipod. It is a great mp3 player and I like the Zune software much more than itunes.
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Haha, do you also own an HD DVD player? That was supposed to compete with Blu Ray

Or possibly a Mini Disc player?
 
manamongkids said:
Haha, do you also own an HD DVD player? That was supposed to compete with Blu Ray

Or possibly a Mini Disc player?
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No...was just very anti apple and when I looked at the zune software compared to itunes I liked it a lot more. The first Zune had 10gb more storage capacity as well when it came out.
 
12thMan said:
Trust me slisk, I in no way thought you were being a racist while using coded words for your hate, just pointing out the absurdity of it all sometimes.
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Didn't think you implied that at all, my position was more for those who might mirror Sherman's views.
 
12thMan said:
I am very comfortable separating the two, this world is far to big and you are going to offend far to many people by just going about your life the best way you know how, even unintentionally, to worry about things like a certain players or ceos view point. An example is in this thread, in the first couple of posts a few members used the word "thug" in describing what they don't like in pro sports. Cool, that's your view point, I get it, I may even agree with some of your finer points.....buuuut I hope the posters who used the word "thug" realize that you are actually saying "nigger", according to Richard Sherman anyway:

Do I think that's what they were saying? No. Would some people, a good number of people actually judging by the support Richard Sherman got after he made his comments, believe they were being racist with those comments? Absolutely. Now imagine there are people here who would not read the posts made by anyone using the word "thug" to describe people, how much sense would all that make considering what was actually said? I feel like that's the kind of pissing in the wind people try to do when they take too big of a moral high ground in situations like these, the worlds too big to keep it all straight and sometimes cheering for a football team and listening to a song is actually just what it is, entertainment.
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slisk250 said:
Didn't think you implied that at all, my position was more for those who might mirror Sherman's views.
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I saw no use of the word "thug" in this thread that I assumed was intended to be (or believed was subconsciously) a reference to race, but I do agree with Sherman that it is sometimes used in that way, just like a lot of other terms can be used in that way. I play in a monthly game with a couple of much older guys and the television is always turned to sports. We've barely broken these two older guys of straight up calling black athletes "niggers" so you can be sure when they refer to a player as an "animal" or a "thug" the racial connotation is there and is intended.

To @12thMan's point about pissing in the wind, the conversations we had to get these guys to trim "nigger" from their vocabulary were absurd enough ("Who cares? I wouldn't say it if there were any here!"). It would be an entirely futile effort if I tried to explain to them why their calling people "thug" and "animal" isn't a lot better. And frankly I'm not interested in playing HR director and teaching a racial sensitivity course when I just want to play cards, so I don't engage on that point.

The re-engineering of language to imply a message that is no longer accepted when stated explicitly is nothing new. Lee Atwater recognized it in his famous interview in which he said the following:

"You start out in 1954 by saying "nigger, nigger, nigger". By 1968, you can't say "nigger". That hurts you, it backfires, so you say stuff like...uh forced-busing, states' rights, and all that stuff. And you're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes. And all of these thing you talking about are totally economic things and the by-product of them is blacks get hurt worse than whites." (link to interview on youtube)​

I mean, it doesn't get much more obvious than that. I think the pushback on "thug" is an effect of the simplistic - and incorrect imo - view that anytime someone says "thug" they're really saying "nigger". Obviously that's not always going to be the case. It's a word that's been in common usage for more than 100 years simply to refer to a criminal. So to say that anyone using the word in any context intends for it to have a racial connotation is silly. When you drill down to one single word and try to imply specific meaning to that word you're just begging for a misunderstanding. Whereas, with reference to Atwater's quote above, when you try to discuss the racial implications of abstract concepts, you're forced to discuss them in context.

Anyway, my point is that we shouldn't be completely tone deaf to the realities of dog whistles and coded language, but at the same time we have to realize that by virtue of mutability of language, we can't assume that one term or expression automatically means the speaker is a bigot without taking a look at the broader context of the conversation.
 

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