Card Shuffler interest (1 Viewer)

[demonnic]

So this is definitely the first piece I'm finding another way to produce for a final product offering.. Over a 24hr print with the current settings and almost a kilo of filament. So much support.

 

[demonnic]

Finally done. Now just a few supports to remove...

 

[demonnic]

... mistakes were made. Things were broken.

On the bright side, we found a combination of settings which we think will print in a third of the time with a quarter of the filament... more updates tomorrow =)

 

[demonnic]

This time worked much much better. Just gotta wait on components now. Most of it should be here by the new year

 

[Chinaski]

I know one of the goals is to make this mountable, so I'm assuming the design will following similarly to the Rigged Card Sorting Machine video.

But have you considered the design of the Ideal Shuffler, that is, with the spinning wheel? Perhaps making the wheel sit lower down so that it can become flush with the table.

 

[demonnic]

I know one of the goals is to make this mountable, so I'm assuming the design will following similarly to the Rigged Card Sorting Machine video.

But have you considered the design of the Ideal Shuffler, that is, with the spinning wheel? Perhaps making the wheel sit lower down so that it can become flush with the table.

It's definitely still being considered, but first iteration I'm definitely going with the vertical sliding compartment set. I think it'll be easier to make flush mounted and also more compact. But I haven't written off anything entirely yet. Starting to assemble things, still a couple pieces I have to pick up from the post office but moving along slowly. Now that the new year is here my day job is picking back up a bit but I'm going to keep plugging away at this.

 

[4SUMERZ]

So looking forward to the finished prototype and the operation of the shuffler. Hope it works out. I'd be interested i it checks off the boxes, the main one being noise reduction less than the ST1000.
It would be nice to have a decent flush table mount shuffler at a reasonable cost that can be worked on with replacement parts made with a 3D printer.
Good Luck in your endeavour

 

[Stebo0792]

Does anyone have any knowledge or experience with the AGS Dex S shuffler?Trying to get some ratings and cost information. DeckMates are wayyyyy to much for my wallet. I currently have a ShuffleTech that needs servicing but I don't even know where to send it. Been good for 2 years but having issues now

 

[minedelta]

I know one of the goals is to make this mountable, so I'm assuming the design will following similarly to the Rigged Card Sorting Machine video.

But have you considered the design of the Ideal Shuffler, that is, with the spinning wheel? Perhaps making the wheel sit lower down so that it can become flush with the table.

Just for reference here is a video of the Ideal Shuffler with out the cover. I'm still new to the Ideal but just using it for the past couple weeks I really enjoy it. The size is really the only flaw I see with this wheel shuffler. These Shufflers do have Cameras in it and can tell you the exact card that is missing from the deck or extra cards and also can enter a sorting mode where the Red and Green buttons flash alternating signaling it's in sort mode. It will sort from A to K and by suits.

You could possibly use the wheel design underneath the box and have the cards feed back and for vertical but would need a cut card in there to protect the bottom card from being exposed.

 

[demonnic]

Just for reference here is a video of the Ideal Shuffler with out the cover. I'm still new to the Ideal but just using it for the past couple weeks I really enjoy it. The size is really the only flaw I see with this wheel shuffler. These Shufflers do have Cameras in it and can tell you the exact card that is missing from the deck or extra cards and also can enter a sorting mode where the Red and Green buttons flash alternating signaling it's in sort mode. It will sort from A to K and by suits.

You could possibly use the wheel design underneath the box and have the cards feed back and for vertical but would need a cut card in there to protect the bottom card from being exposed.

Thanks. I do like the design in general, especially if you're trying to include card detection and sorting but I feel like that adds cost and complexity that I'd like to avoid even before you get into the whole "and now folks worry about hacking the device to cheat" aspect of things. I don't know what SHFL were thinking when they left that exposed USB port on the deckmate 2.

There are ways I think you could make the wheel work without making it unmountable, but it would still be pretty bulky under the table and several of them would introduce the added wrinkle of bottom card exposure yeah. I feel like Le Shuffler puts this overall design to good use with their upcoming shuffler. My only gripes with it are it's not flush mountable and it does more than I want it to. I really just want a shuffler that can be flush mounted, and will take a deck of cards and return it thoroughly mixed/randomized. But in all honesty, if you don't want to flush mount your shuffler the Le Shuffler looks like it will be a great option at a decent price point ($600 on their kickstarter project for now) but it's kickstarter so no telling when it will show up.

Mostly I started out wanting a shuffler but refusing to pay the highway robbery prices charged by Shuffletech and SHFL. Honestly the cost of the ST-1000 new for what it is kind of offends me. The deckmates too, honestly, but at least they're primarily intended to be sold to casinos rather than some dude trying to run a home game. A bit of patent research is still in order too frankly. It's entirely possible they've managed to file enough patents that they could conceivably sue anyone trying to sell a shuffler that isn't just physically smashing the cards together like the cheapies/st-1000 do. I haven't had the time to dig into that with earnest, but I know they've filed at least one patent lawsuit previously (was it against ideal? Want to say it was but don't recall for sure) trying to protect their profits.

Still gonna build this one and figure out how to tighten up the design for myself if nothing else, and I do hope I can turn it into a profitable business, but worst case if I wind up with a neat shuffler I made for myself and a few I made and sold to fellow chippers/poker enthusiasts and that's it I'll still be pretty happy with it honestly.

 

[minedelta]

The exposed USB is there to make it easier for their technicians to update firmware and install software. While yes this is a vunerability, if you didn't have a USB everything is still hackable or able to be modded to be cheated. Anyone who is wanting to cheat will cheat but a card shuffler isn't required to do it. So I'm not sure what methods you plan on doing to make it unhackable but I can assure you if someone wanted to modify it in their favor they will find a way. SHFL(Light and Wonder) is worth millions if not billions. They been doing shufflers for decades and as it has been proven can be hacked. When someone from the company stated that their shufflers were unhackable due to a highly contreversial hand played at Hustler. These hackers took on the challenge and reversed engineered everything to be backdoored via the USB. Which again high level hackers who never released the code to do it but just wanted to show that it was possible.

This USB attack is easily countered by unplugging it from the motherboard when it's not in use if anyone was ever afraid someone who isn't the card shuffler owner could gain access.

Even a Shuffltech, if someone really wanted to cheat with it you could add some simple high speed cameras to record the sequence and know exactly how the hand is going to play out. I think the focus shouldn't be to much on a "unhackable" shuffler as yes you can do things to help make it not as easy but it's still going to happen if someone really wanted to do it.


With all kickstarters it's really just a concept to gain interest. Until there is a working video and or the product is up for sale it will be just a concept. Even the price is subject to change. I am in a few kickstarter projects that have gone up a few thousand and I have yet to recieve my product. So like you mention until someone gets one in their hands I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on them to release.

Highway robbery? Pricing is very subjective as we all have different budgets. Which we can say the same thing about poker chips with some sets as low as a few hundred ranging up to a few thousand. We all put a value on what's expensive to us and what's fair value. You may think it's highway robbery but casinos see it was a money printing machine as more hands are played and their revenue margins are skyrocketing. As the saying goes the house always win and the more the play the more you lose with house edge or raking.

The lawsuit you are refering to was Shuffle Tech International LLC et al. v. Scientific Games Corp. et al.

So indeed a bit of research is needed to make sure you don't breach any Patents.

The Ideal shuffler is the same company Shuffle Master aka SHFL aka Scientific Games Aka Light and Wonder

Should you build a more affordable, reliable, quierter, faster shuffler?

I absolutly 100% think you should but this has been brought up so many times of this gap in the market and no one has really successfully tackled it. I am more than willing to help pitch my thoughts on anything and everything shuffler related so feel free to reach out.

The design/concept would be the most important part of this project

 

[demonnic]

The exposed USB is there to make it easier for their technicians to update firmware and install software. While yes this is a vunerability, if you didn't have a USB everything is still hackable or able to be modded to be cheated. Anyone who is wanting to cheat will cheat but a card shuffler isn't required to do it. So I'm not sure what methods you plan on doing to make it unhackable but I can assure you if someone wanted to modify it in their favor they will find a way. SHFL(Light and Wonder) is worth millions if not billions. They been doing shufflers for decades and as it has been proven can be hacked. When someone from the company stated that their shufflers were unhackable due to a highly contreversial hand played at Hustler. These hackers took on the challenge and reversed engineered everything to be backdoored via the USB. Which again high level hackers who never released the code to do it but just wanted to show that it was possible.

This USB attack is easily countered by unplugging it from the motherboard when it's not in use if anyone was ever afraid someone who isn't the card shuffler owner could gain access.

Even a Shuffltech, if someone really wanted to cheat with it you could add some simple high speed cameras to record the sequence and know exactly how the hand is going to play out. I think the focus shouldn't be to much on a "unhackable" shuffler as yes you can do things to help make it not as easy but it's still going to happen if someone really wanted to do it.


With all kickstarters it's really just a concept to gain interest. Until there is a working video and or the product is up for sale it will be just a concept. Even the price is subject to change. I am in a few kickstarter projects that have gone up a few thousand and I have yet to recieve my product. So like you mention until someone gets one in their hands I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on them to release.

Highway robbery? Pricing is very subjective as we all have different budgets. Which we can say the same thing about poker chips with some sets as low as a few hundred ranging up to a few thousand. We all put a value on what's expensive to us and what's fair value. You may think it's highway robbery but casinos see it was a money printing machine as more hands are played and their revenue margins are skyrocketing. As the saying goes the house always win and the more the play the more you lose with house edge or raking.

The lawsuit you are refering to was Shuffle Tech International LLC et al. v. Scientific Games Corp. et al.

So indeed a bit of research is needed to make sure you don't breach any Patents.

The Ideal shuffler is the same company Shuffle Master aka SHFL aka Scientific Games Aka Light and Wonder

Should you build a more affordable, reliable, quierter, faster shuffler?

I absolutly 100% think you should but this has been brought up so many times of this gap in the market and no one has really successfully tackled it. I am more than willing to help pitch my thoughts on anything and everything shuffler related so feel free to reach out.

The design/concept would be the most important part of this project

OK, first off in case I wasn't clear, I'm not saying that I personally have these concerns. But if the fix is you have to open the system to hook the USB back up, you should have just put the USB under the case imo. Leaving a potentially exposed way to interface with the machine just open like that was a bad security decision in a product that should be security focused.

I'm not trying to make an "unhackable" shuffler, but I AM interested in heading off concerns as much as possible before they come up. I've listened to/read rants from enough people about not wanting to trust the card robots in general, let alone specifically the DM2, that I'm more than happy to do what I can to reduce that before it even starts. Reduce, because some folks won't trust it no matter what you do. Not to mention, SHFL is as you say a multi-million or billion $ company and I am but one guy. The less headaches I give myself up front the better. And for things like the ability to detect the cards and sort them, it reduces the most difficult parts of the design aspect as well. Especially if you want to support a wide variety of card designs.

The chip analogy is a decent one, except I don't think that the $20 cheap shufflers are as suitable for purpose as the ABS slugged chips are, and the ST-1000 is like paying $2k for a 400 chip STT set from Tina. There's not exactly the same sort of aesthetic collectability in shufflers either. Of course, that's just my opinion on the cost:value ratio involved, but I'm never gonna look at a DM1 and be like "yup, that sure is a handsome shuffler there" like I might do with a poker chip.

So, yeah, my comments about cheating/etc are more about removing potential avenues for bitching and making it more difficult for the non-owner to interfere with it's functioning, not because I think SHFL made a bad product or the ability to detect and sort the cards is a bad one. I do stand by the opinion that leaving an exposed interface of any kind on a shuffler for a casino especially is a poor design decision from a security standpoint though. If you don't trust the host you shouldn't play there whatever shuffler they might be using. And never taunt the hackers by claiming to be unhackable.

I'm not sure if I'm really trying to chase down quieter or faster. Certainly not quieter or faster than the DM1. I do think quieter than the ST-1000 is fairly easily doable, and at a similar speed. If I can make it faster I obviously will. More affordable and quieter without sacrificing speed I think is the main goal though. And I kind of always shoot for "as reliable as possible" so it's not so much a matter of making one more reliable than theirs, per se.

It is entirely possible, perhaps even likely, that the reason there exists no affordable shuffler that isn't based on physically interleaving the deck (like a riffle) is because SHFL has all the patents and no interest in building a more affordable shuffler with the (imo) much better methods of randomizing a deck. In which case even making one for myself is probably illegal since patent infringement doesn't require monetary gain iirc. IANAL and would certainly obtain the services of someone who specializes in patent law before trying to bring a product to market beyond "I built one for me and some homies on PCF". At that point if a law suit does roll in it's likely to be cease and desist, not "give us your entire net worth". I know I saw at least a few patents of theirs which I'll need to read more thoroughly before even getting to a lawyer.

Thanks for the feedback, and I definitely intend to reach out to you specifically for more of it as the project progresses, assuming it isn't completely brick walled by patents.

TL;DR: I'm less saying I'm concerned about the DM2's hackability or trying to make an unhackable shuffler and more that I want to reduce the reasons for people to bitch/claim it's for cheating in addition to simplifying the design to make it more affordable and easier to produce and service. And it's entirely possible that SHFL has enough patents that they're the reason your choices go from "$20 walmart shuffler" to "$100 version of the walmart shuffler but it'll also deal cards" to "ST-1000" to "DM1/ideal" with such huge gaps in the cost.

 

[SetToBean]

I’d add that there’s nothing surprising or, if you’re cynical, shocking about ST’s pricing.

They offer the only genuinely functional shuffling machine that are affordable new to the non-licensee enthusiast section of the market and have been for years with only inklings of possible competition from time to time - of course they’re charging monopoly prices despite its imperfections.

 

[demonnic]

I’d add that there’s nothing surprising or, if you’re cynical, shocking about ST’s pricing.

They offer the only genuinely functional shuffling machine that are affordable new to the non-licensee enthusiast section of the market and have been for years with only inklings of possible competition from time to time - of course they’re charging monopoly prices despite its imperfections.

Oh I'm not surprised. Of course they're going to charge whatever they can get away with. I just think that for what the machine actually is it's an outrageous price and I refuse to pay it. But that opinion is colored by my skill set and the fact that I'm know I'm capable of building something better for cheaper for myself even if I had to start from scratch. And it's not in any way a judgement of anyone who has or would.

But I do think a better product at a cheaper price point is 100% possible (patent issues aside).

 

[4SUMERZ]

---

Oh I'm not surprised. Of course they're going to charge whatever they can get away with. I just think that for what the machine actually is it's an outrageous price and I refuse to pay it. But that opinion is colored by my skill set and the fact that I'm know I'm capable of building something better for cheaper for myself even if I had to start from scratch. And it's not in any way a judgement of anyone who has or would.

But I do think a better product at a cheaper price point is 100% possible (patent issues aside).

It's not an issue if not sold to the masses. No one can stop you from making it for yourself or your friends to use. It would be different if you were selling these on eBay for profit, then companies who hold patents would not be happy.

 

[demonnic]

I'm pretty sure a patent means in order to make one, whether for yourself or another person, you must obtain permission from the patent holder. Since each one could be considered a lost sale.

Are they likely to chase you down for building a few of these for you and your friends? No, but I'm pretty sure they could legally. But again, IANAL and my understanding of patent law is sketchy at best. But brief research with Google indicated it's still infringement regardless of profit or scale

 

[4SUMERZ]

I'm pretty sure a patent means in order to make one, whether for yourself or another person, you must obtain permission from the patent holder. Since each one could be considered a lost sale.

Are they likely to chase you down for building a few of these for you and your friends? No, but I'm pretty sure they could legally. But again, IANAL and my understanding of patent law is sketchy at best. But brief research with Google indicated it's still infringement regardless of profit or scale

Here is a patent for card shuffler.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6254096B1/en

There are many patents on card shufflers. Most have a 20 year patent, but they get assigned to either by the original holder or a new applicant. The last assignment was 2023 on one of the card shufflers. No wonder these need a lawyer to understand these.

 

[demonnic]

Here is a patent for card shuffler.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6254096B1/en

There are many patents on card shufflers. Most have a 20 year patent, but they get assigned to either by the original holder or a new applicant. The last assignment was 2023 on one of the card shufflers. No wonder these need a lawyer to understand these.

Yeah they're kind of nuts, and the details of the patent are important to whether or not it actually applies or yours is different enough to be awarded a separate patent, etc. I found a couple which might apply to the current design I'm working on, but I can't be sure until I take the time to read through them, and even then I'd still need to run it by a lawyer before I was confident I actually understood what I was reading and whether I was infringing or not.

I'd have been more surprised if there weren't a lot of patents for card shufflers, honestly. Just need to find a way to navigate it/hire the proper professional to navigate it for me.