China Clay Chips Comparison (4 Viewers)

[jvspin]

Drop 10 chips (marked) into a pot of 40 chips (un-marked/pot chips) - atleast 100 times from 12 inches, weight the flea bites on the table too after since thats also part of the science

EDIT: As much as you can sweep up*

Okay, been doing some experimentation using the procedure above. Chips dropped one at a time, often hitting the previously dropped chip edge first. Here are some results. Note, all chips unused before testing. Rotated chips to show damaged areas for photo.

Chips tested so far.
Blue Spirit 4D14
Purple Spirit 4D14
Green Great Wall 4D14
Paulson sample set

Notes: One chip broke along join of white to blue. Damage mostly in white. Just as hard to break the blue chip in one hand as the purple.

Paulson before

Paulson after

Also of note:
1) other than the pieces of the broken blue chip, there weren't enough flea bites to register on my 0.00g scale.
2) the chips in the pot don't show anywhere near as much damage as the chips being tested so moving forward I'll use the same purple chips as the 'pot'.

 

[jvspin]

I think the test conditions are good for comparison purposes but suspect they are harsher than real world conditions. I don't see any flea bites in the same green Great Wall and also black Great Wall chips I've used for tournaments for the past at least 7 years. The chips have never been oiled, just wiped with a dry microfiber cloth when first taking them out their sleeves.

 

[jvspin]

Here are some more results. Finished testing the rest of the Spirit mold chips. Reposted the blue and purple images so all the Spirit molds are in one post.
My guess is the yellow chips are unplayable. The blue chips are marginal. The rest are playable.
Based on the images, best to worst would be Orange, White, Purple, Pink, Red, Green, Black, Blue, Yellow.

Chips tested

Paulson for reference

Orange Spirit Whirlwind

White Spirit Whirlwind

Purple Spirit Whirlwind

Pink Spirit 6 Strip

Red Spirit 6 Strip

Green Spirit 6 Strip

Black Spirit 6 Strip

Blue Spirit Whirlwind - one chip broke during testing.

Yellow Spirit 6 Strip

 

[BGinGA]

I sent the samples off to you today.
From the printing on the boxes it looks like the manufacturer is Maxum Eastont, with styles as follows:
Great Wall (key like mold) - white, red, blue, green, black, purple, orange
Whirlwind (spirit with 4D14 edge spots and $ labels) - white ($1), blue ($10), purple ($500), orange ($1000)
6 Stripe (spirit with 614 edge spots) - red, green, black, pink, yellow

Sure. Looks like there may be two manufacturers. View attachment 789006
View attachment 789008

View attachment 789009
Maxim Eastont - Great Wall and 6 Stripe



View attachment 789010
View attachment 789011
Whirlwind - Aurora T. P.

All of the original spirit mold chips were produced by Eastony Industries. The "spirit" mold marking was their corporate logo, and described on their web site. The term 'Aurora' was later used to define a brand for that specific line of chips. They also produced the reverse-J style of Greek key mold china clays (Progen-80).

The cleaner-look reverse-L style Greek key mold was made by a different (and never-disclosed) Chinese manufacturer for Palm Gaming International (PGI), using PGI-supplied materials that theoretically created a better chip via better quality control (no recycled products). PGI referred to these solid-color and 4D14-spotted chips as Greek key chips, while one of their distributors called their own specific-label chip line 'Wallsons' using the 'Great Wall' mold. PGI later had 8V-spotted chips made as well, using the same manufacturer and process.

The original Dunes Commemorative, Desert Palms, and Pharaoh's Club china clay chips were imported by TheChipRoom, and presumably made by Eastony (but never confirmed by TCR). TCR also later had created and offered reverse-S (script) mold chips with an 8V spot pattern and no label.

 

[philhut]

All of the original spirit mold chips were produced by Eastony Industries. The "spirit" mold marking was their corporate logo, and described on their web site. The term 'Aurora' was later used to define a brand for that specific line of chips. They also produced the reverse-J style of Greek key mold china clays (Progen-80).

The cleaner-look reverse-L style Greek key mold was made by a different (and never-disclosed) Chinese manufacturer for Palm Gaming International (PGI), using PGI-supplied materials that theoretically created a better chip via better quality control (no recycled products). PGI referred to these solid-color and 4D14-spotted chips as Greek key chips, while one of their distributors called their own specific-label chip line 'Wallsons' using the 'Great Wall' mold. PGI later had 8V-spotted chips made as well, using the same manufacturer and process.

The original Dunes Commemorative, Desert Palms, and Pharaoh's Club china clay chips were imported by TheChipRoom, and presumably made by Eastony (but never confirmed by TCR). TCR also later had created and offered reverse-S (script) mold chips with an 8V spot pattern and no label.

I remember Wallson's..... back when sanding your Nexgen's smooth was a thing and people frowned upon Casino Aztar for being dirty/worn while celebrating the recently available Paulson New Yorks.... Then i stopped following chiptalk for years returning to the poker forums last year. Chip sets are far more extravagant than they were on average back around ~2000.....perhaps all of us degenerate 20's/30's year olds (in 2000) grew up with more refined tastes.....

 

[TheTrout]

In my (significantly limited) experience, CCs can look and sound like Paulsons, but they do not feel close to the same. China clays to me feel slippery especially if they are oiled. Paulsons grip other chips really well and are not ultra “smooth”, they have a natural clay texture to them.

My first real set was Majestics and after upgrading from dice chips, I was blown away and really pleased. Unfortunately for my wallet, Paulson chips are another huge step up and once you try them it’s hard not to be a snob!

 

[jvspin]

Finally finished testing the Great Wall chips.
Test conditions: 10 chips (marked) dropped into a pot of 40 chips (un-marked/pot chips) - atleast 100 times from 12 inches.
Chips rotated to show the most damage. Tried to order the photos from best to worst. To my eyes, there isn't as much difference between chip colors as the Spirit chips.

Once again, Paulson chips for reference.

 

[2_7suited]

Dunes are really nice, especially for the money.

 

[BPTDirector]

I have a friend who has been using cc Pharoahs for five years weekly and they still look really good.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I have a friend who has been using cc Pharoahs for five years weekly and they still look really good.

I think most of the china clay chips are pretty durable and don't show much wear even when they get a lot of use. I suspect that's because they're basically just made of plastic. The Spirit mold and their related key mold chips in this thread are the exception to that durability characteristic of china clays. I feel like the same thing that makes then less durable, is what also makes them more like real compressed clay chips. Who knows? They may even have some actual clay in the material they are composed of. They do, in my opinion, have better feel than most other CCs, but are also less durable, just like clay chips are less durable.

 

[BPTDirector]

As I said in another thread what we call real compression clay chips such as BCC and Paulson actually have very little, if any, real clay in them.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

As I said in another thread what we call real compression clay chips such as BCC and Paulson actually have very little, if any, real clay in them.

Do you have a source that supports that statement? I'd be interested in reading it if you could provide a link. I've done a fair amount of research myself, and most of what I've read confirms that compression molded clay chips do in fact have a significant element of clay in the material composition.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Do you have a source that supports that statement? I'd be interested in reading it if you could provide a link. I've done a fair amount of research myself, and most of what I've read confirms that compression molded clay chips do in fact have a significant element of clay in the material composition.

Sadly, we just don't know.

David Spragg has said this about CPCs:

All I will say is there are zero plastics in our chips and over 2/3 clay.

But that's literally all he will say, and all he can say given the legal requirements of his gaming license. None of the other manufacturers have said anything.

We have a formula that was used by TRK, and an extensive thread discussing what that formula means: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/trk-chip-dye-formula-revealed.63453/ . From that formula, we know that a significant portion of the TRK chip material was clay - how significant depends on whether you measure by weight or by volume, but in either case it's more than just a nominal amount.

One thing that we do know is that clay chips - including CPCs - have plastic-like properties, not clay-like (in the sense of clay objects such as bricks, flower pots, and crockery). The material they're made from softens and melts at high temperature and then hardens again when cooled. Clay, on the other hand, softens when it is wetted, hardens as it dries, and when dried under heat becomes permanently hard and waterproof.

We also know that early poker chips were made from a material called "clay composition", and we know that early forms of clay composition were first made from a mixture of clay and shellac (i.e. natural plastics) and then later a mixture of clay and celluloid (i.e. manmade plastics). We know that the clay-to-plastic ratios were variable. But we don't know what they were.

... and that's pretty much all we know.

 

[ktran]

So the consensus is that china clays are durable over the years? Aside from Spirit molds which can vary. The Greek mold and 8v are the ones with squared edges?

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

So the consensus is that china clays are durable over the years? Aside from Spirit molds which can vary. The Greek mold and 8v are the ones with squared edges?

Greek mold and Spirit mold are the ones with squarest edges. And the ones that can be less durable. May be a connection there too. PGI 8Vs are a bit more rounded and are very durable.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Sadly, we just don't know.

David Spragg has said this about CPCs:



But that's literally all he will say, and all he can say given the legal requirements of his gaming license. None of the other manufacturers have said anything.

We have a formula that was used by TRK, and an extensive thread discussing what that formula means: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/trk-chip-dye-formula-revealed.63453/ . From that formula, we know that a significant portion of the TRK chip material was clay - how significant depends on whether you measure by weight or by volume, but in either case it's more than just a nominal amount.

One thing that we do know is that clay chips - including CPCs - have plastic-like properties, not clay-like (in the sense of clay objects such as bricks, flower pots, and crockery). The material they're made from softens and melts at high temperature and then hardens again when cooled. Clay, on the other hand, softens when it is wetted, hardens as it dries, and when dried under heat becomes permanently hard and waterproof.

We also know that early poker chips were made from a material called "clay composition", and we know that early forms of clay composition were first made from a mixture of clay and shellac (i.e. natural plastics) and then later a mixture of clay and celluloid (i.e. manmade plastics). We know that the clay-to-plastic ratios were variable. But we don't know what they were.

... and that's pretty much all we know.

Yes, this agrees with most of what I have found as well. What I was asking for support of from @BPTDirector was his statement that clay chips have very little to no clay in them.

In some new reading I was just doing tonight, I also discovered that china clay is also a natural occurring clay mineral called kaolin or kaolinite. So yes, even your china clay chips may actually have some clay in them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolinite

 

[Kid_Eastwood]

So the consensus is that china clays are durable over the years? Aside from Spirit molds which can vary. The Greek mold and 8v are the ones with squared edges?

I don't think there will be a consensus. You'll have to make an educated decision based on the different threads.

 

[BPTDirector]

There is a thread here that supports what I am saying. Just search for it. Like everything else if you e been around for as long as some of us(16 years) you remember seeing it but cannot name the thread. But, I assure you there was a study and discovery of these facts.

 

[CrazyEddie]

In some new reading I was just doing tonight, I also discovered that china clay is also a natural occurring clay mineral called kaolin or kaolinite. So yes, even your china clay chips may actually have some clay in them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaolinite

I hadn't noticed that kaolin was also called "china clay"; nice pick-up. That said, I doubt that the chips we call china clays were so named because of kaolin; I expect they got that name because they were made in China but looked and felt a lot like Paulsons. But I'm not positive; I wasn't around then, and all the chipper chit chat of the time has been lost.

FWIW, kaolin is the clay mineral that I know was used in at least some formulations of "clay composition" in the late 19th / early 20th century. There could have been others, but I've found one reference that specifically mentions kaolin.

@BGinGA has pretty confidently stated that china clays such as Spirits and PGIs included some measure of silicates in their make-up. I'm not sure what his sources are, but I expect he's correct.

Of course, without knowing the specific formulas, it's pretty pointless to argue about whether any of these chips have "a lot" or "almost no" clay in them. I'm not even sure there's a meaningful distinction to be made there. The TRKs discussed in the formula thread contain less than two percent dye by weight. Is two percent "a lot" ? Well, no... but it's enough to have the desired effect, which is to make the chip a beautiful color. So how much clay is in Paulsons or CPCs? Not enough to make it behave like clay, but more than enough to make it feel like clay - which is exactly the amount desired. Is that a lot or a little? The question is, in my opinion, not well formed.

 

[B2rad]

So the consensus is that china clays are durable over the years? Aside from Spirit molds which can vary. The Greek mold and 8v are the ones with squared edges?

I think so. I mean I don't have a set that I've put in play regularly but if I were to speak on Royals specifically, I would be genuinely surprised if these would even see any damage while playing with them. My royals feel and sound very plasticky. Not a bad thing, but definitely different to china clays like the spirit mold ones.

 

[BPTDirector]

I hadn't noticed that kaolin was also called "china clay"; nice pick-up. That said, I doubt that the chips we call china clays were so named because of kaolin; I expect they got that name because they were made in China but looked and felt a lot like Paulsons. But I'm not positive; I wasn't around then, and all the chipper chit chat of the time has been lost.

FWIW, kaolin is the clay mineral that I know was used in at least some formulations of "clay composition" in the late 19th / early 20th century. There could have been others, but I've found one reference that specifically mentions kaolin.

@BGinGA has pretty confidently stated that china clays such as Spirits and PGIs included some measure of silicates in their make-up. I'm not sure what his sources are, but I expect he's correct.

Of course, without knowing the specific formulas, it's pretty pointless to argue about whether any of these chips have "a lot" or "almost no" clay in them. I'm not even sure there's a meaningful distinction to be made there. The TRKs discussed in the formula thread contain less than two percent dye by weight. Is two percent "a lot" ? Well, no... but it's enough to have the desired effect, which is to make the chip a beautiful color. So how much clay is in Paulsons or CPCs? Not enough to make it behave like clay, but more than enough to make it feel like clay - which is exactly the amount desired. Is that a lot or a little? The question is, in my opinion, not well formed.

A point to be made is that there can be pretty much zero argument that compression formed chips have more or less clay composition than injection molded clay purported chips manufactured in China. Do compression molded chips feel more casino like, pretty much, do they have clay in them, find the thread I spoke about. That’s all I’m saying here. For a site that prides it membership based on chip knowledge let’s put the truth out there for everyone, not just our predjudiced opinions.

 

[CrazyEddie]

A point to be made is that there can be pretty much zero argument that compression formed chips have more or less clay composition than injection molded clay purported chips manufactured in China.

We have zero information about how much clay is in Paulsons. They could have a lot of clay, they could have no clay whatsoever.

We know (or at least have reason to suspect) that at least some of the older china clays contained silicates, which depending on your definition could be considered "clay".

So, in fact, at least some china clays might contain more clay than Paulsons. Or they might contain less clay than Paulsons. We don't know, and we probably never will know.

The only useful take-away is that how much clay a chip contains is not interesting, relevant, or important. What matters is how chips feel and how they hold up over time, and that's something we can observe directly without knowing anything about their actual clay content.

 

[BPTDirector]

So, here is a quote by the above member from a year ago - he must have forgotten this post.

This formula may have been the entirety of these chips' material, not a list of additives to a base. The main ingredient here by weight is lead, but by volume is vinyl (i.e. PVC). Remember, clay chips are made of plastic, not clay.

This formula only weighs 14.5 pounds, which is not enough for 2000 chips, but the formula probably would have been specified in amounts used for "standard" batches and then multiplied by whatever factor was needed when actually producing the chips.

If this is in fact the complete list of ingredients for these chips, then by volume it's roughly 33% lead silicate, 19% baryte (barium sulfate), and 48% PVC, discounting the dyes (titanium [probably this means titanium dioxide], lavender, and purple) and the cotton (since there's no good way to guess at the density given it's a compressible fiber).

Thanks for going through those order cards, and thanks for posting your find! This is great stuff to know

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I hadn't noticed that kaolin was also called "china clay"; nice pick-up. That said, I doubt that the chips we call china clays were so named because of kaolin; I expect they got that name because they were made in China but looked and felt a lot like Paulsons. But I'm not positive; I wasn't around then, and all the chipper chit chat of the time has been lost.

FWIW, kaolin is the clay mineral that I know was used in at least some formulations of "clay composition" in the late 19th / early 20th century. There could have been others, but I've found one reference that specifically mentions kaolin.

@BGinGA has pretty confidently stated that china clays such as Spirits and PGIs included some measure of silicates in their make-up. I'm not sure what his sources are, but I expect he's correct.

Of course, without knowing the specific formulas, it's pretty pointless to argue about whether any of these chips have "a lot" or "almost no" clay in them. I'm not even sure there's a meaningful distinction to be made there. The TRKs discussed in the formula thread contain less than two percent dye by weight. Is two percent "a lot" ? Well, no... but it's enough to have the desired effect, which is to make the chip a beautiful color. So how much clay is in Paulsons or CPCs? Not enough to make it behave like clay, but more than enough to make it feel like clay - which is exactly the amount desired. Is that a lot or a little? The question is, in my opinion, not well formed.

I read two different articles last night that stated china clay chips contained some measure of kaolin. One of them specifically mentioned Majestics and Milanos. Obviously anyone can put anything they want on the web, so it might be difficult to confirm the accuracy of the articles. But why be deceptive about something like that? Not really anything to be gained, and kaolin is clearly a common and inexpensive material in China, and one that would lend itself quite well to the purpose of making poker chips. So I see no reason to doubt that the chips probably contain some.

 

[CrazyEddie]

I read two different articles last night that stated china clay chips contained some measure of kaolin. One of them specifically mentioned Majestics and Milanos. Obviously anyone can put anything they want on the web, so it might be difficult to confirm the accuracy of the articles. But why be deceptive about something like that? Not really anything to be gained, and kaolin is clearly a common and inexpensive material in China, and one that would lend itself quite well to the purpose of making poker chips. So I see no reason to doubt that the chips probably contain some.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to suggest that china clays (the chips) don't contain china clay (the material kaolin). I was suggesting that the chips probably aren't named for the material, although I could easily be wrong about that.

Can you point me to those articles you read? I'd love to read them too.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I don't think there will be a consensus. You'll have to make an educated decision based on the different threads.

I'm not sure why you say that. I think there is a consensus. That other than the few exceptions that have been mentioned, the other common china clay chips are quite durable. I've never seen anyone dispute that. Maybe you have? All the common ones have gotten tons of use by PCF members. If there were others with durability issues I imagine we would here about it.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to suggest that china clays (the chips) don't contain china clay (the material kaolin). I was suggesting that the chips probably aren't named for the material, although I could easily be wrong about that.

Can you point me to those articles you read? I'd love to read them too.

No worries. I wasn't disputing what you said, just adding additional information. Yes, I think I saved the links.

https://betandbeat.com/poker/supplies/chips/

https://pokerfortress.com/what-are-poker-chips-made-of/

At least one of these also stated a couple things that I didn't think were exactly factual, but all in all they seem to have some pretty decent information. In high level layman's terms.

 

[CrazyEddie]

So, here is a quote by the above member from a year ago - he must have forgotten this post.

Oh, right. Yes, that's my post. I hadn't forgotten about it. In that thread we were mostly discussing how much lead and plastic the chips contained, and I wasn't thinking much about the clay content.

The TRK formula is mostly lead silicate, baryte, and vinyl. Lead silicate and baryte are minerals. They aren't considered clay minerals though, at least not according to Wikipedia, so I suppose TRKs contain zero clay. But they're also certainly not plastic. I suppose you could describe TRKs as a mix of plastic and minerals that aren't clay.

The TRK formula doesn't necessarily tell us much about what CPC chips are made of, or what Paulson chips are made of.

We know that at least some very early poker chips, including some made by USPCC, contained clay, because they were described as "clay composition" and at the time clay composition was known to be at first clay (kaolin) plus shellac and then later clay (presumably kaolin) plus celluloid. But knowing that some USPCC chips contained clay doesn't tell us for sure that Burt / ASM / CPC chips do, since the formula could have changed at some point during the transition between USPCC and Burt, and for that matter we know that USPCC had more than one formula. But we have David Spragg's assurance that CPCs do in fact contain clay - quite a bit of it, apparently.

For Paulsons we don't have any information at all, as far as I know. I'd love to be corrected.

 

[CrazyEddie]

No worries. I wasn't disputing what you said, just adding additional information. Yes, I think I saved the links.

https://betandbeat.com/poker/supplies/chips/

https://pokerfortress.com/what-are-poker-chips-made-of/

At least one of these also stated a couple things that I didn't think were exactly factual, but all in all they seem to have some pretty decent information. In high level layman's terms.

Those are actually some great articles! ... for laymen, at any rate. Whoever wrote each of them clearly either knew at least something about the subject, or had done a lot of research. They each contain information that I wouldn't expect anyone outside of this forum to know.

That said, each of them has some very wrong statements scattered throughout. So definitely not perfect.

I'm fascinated that each one drew a connection between china clays and kaolin. I wonder where they got that information from? Like I said, they've clearly done some research into the subject... It's possible there's a legitimate source that goes into just what certain china clay chips were made of at one time; it's also possible that they just made it up, or are repeating something that someone else just made up.

Thanks for the links!

 

[Kid_Eastwood]

I'm not sure why you say that. I think there is a consensus. That other than the few exceptions that have been mentioned, the other common china clay chips are quite durable. I've never seen anyone dispute that. Maybe you have? All the common ones have gotten tons of use by PCF members. If there were others with durability issues I imagine we would here about it.

Here're few posts showing chips falling apart just with regular use.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...ility-of-china-clays-chips.23270/#post-429781

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...ility-of-china-clays-chips.23270/#post-576694

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pgi-china-clay-falling-apart.28804/#post-534079

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pgi-china-clay-falling-apart.28804/#post-534110

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pgi-china-clay-falling-apart.28804/#post-534201

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/pgi-china-clay-falling-apart.28804/#post-535607

There is a difference in the different China Clay series. All the ones I bought from Apache (Majestic and Dunes) held well. I only heard a guy around me who experienced 2 breaks in his Majestic set.

I don't say that all China Clay are durable or on the other side fragile. I just say there will be no concensus because there are lots of difference in the different models.

Now if we say, for instance, "Royals are durable" or "first batch of Pharaohs are fragile", there could be a consensus.