Crazy Pineapple - How would you play AAx here? (1 Viewer)

[Jaqk80]

Hello.

I had a situation in a NL Crazy Pineapple tournament and am wondering if anyone has a better idea on playing this pre-flop. The tournament is the Diesel on Global (11 buy-in about 30 players). For anyone unfamiliar, it plays like NLHE expect you start with 3 cards and discard 1 before the turn.

5 players at the table
Everyone has 150 BBs +/- 10 BBs (I don't think we've gone 1 orbit at this point)
UTG folds
CO open limps
BUT calls
SB calls
Hero wakes up in BB with AdAcQc

So what would you do here?

Here's the full line I took and how it played out:

Spoiler

Hero raises to 5 BBs
All Villans call

20.5 BBs in pot
Flop comes 6h2s8s
SB checks
BB (Hero) checks
CO checks
BUT Chacks

Hero keeps AdAc

20.5 BBs in pot
Turn comes 5c
SB checks
BB (Hero) bets 4 BBs
CO calls
BUT raises to 22 BBs
SB folds
BB (Hero) folds
CO raises to 45.25 BBs
BUT raises all-in to 149.30 BBs
CO calls (141.50 BBs)

CO shows 8h8d (set)
BUT shows 9s7c (straight)

River comes 6s giving CO the full-house

 

[Legend5555]

I like your line just fine.

 

[Legend5555]

Crazy Pineapple plays more like Omaha in that you need to be pretty strong post flop to continue, especially multiway. People's ranges are wider since they don't have to discard until post flop. Regular Pineapple plays more like Holdem, and you can actually put players on narrower ranges since they have to discard pre flop.

 

[BGinGA]

I'm firing a 10bb c-bet on the flop. Doesn't help you vs the flopped set, but you make any draws pay to see the turn card.

 

[Legend5555]

Out of position in Crazy P, this is NOT a flop I'm looking to fire with a naked overpair. You have a big range disadvantage and you can't stand any heat. You wouldn't dream of betting this flop out of position into 3 players in Omaha. And this isn't much different. Limp calling ranges are going to hit this flop a lot. If the best result you can hope for is everyone folds, then I don't know why you'd want to bet very often.

 

[Jaqk80]

I like your line just fine.

The preflop raise is where I'm uncertain. I'm between 2 other possibilities:

1) giving up on thinning the field, checking, and hoping for a set vs. set matchup (where I'll probably end up stacking the villan)

2) Go stronger on the raise (10 BBs maybe) knowing that I'll either not get any action or still end up with the same number of Villans

With the stack sizes, I'm leaning more towards trying option 1.

 

[BGinGA]

True, but this was a raised pot pre-flop, not just a bunch of limpers. You want pairs to call here (and they will), and you want the draws to call too - but giving free turn cards to a wide range of hands is not wise.

I'm not betting to get anyone to fold.... but picking up a 20bb pot in a tournament isn't a bad outcome, either.

 

[JMC9389]

I have to agree with @BGinGA , I'm still c-betting small on the flop.

I think I can find a fold here with being raised on a turn bet and having another player reraise. I don't like potential straights with two flush draws out there. I'd be more likely to continue heads up, but there's no way aces are good here three ways.

OP's line was fine with the exception of not betting small on the flop, though in retrospect, neither player with the straight draw or set was going anywhere.

 

[JustinInMN]

@Jaqk80 Welcome to PCF.

You might want to consider how other posters use the strategy thread. Usually they seek responses on each street one at a time instead of putting the whole story in one spoiler. This makes it impossible for anyone to respond without spoiling the spoiler, so to speak .

Thanks said, as I took 10th place in a real crazy pineapple event about 5 years ago, I am calling myself super qualified to give feedback here.

Preflop

Spoiler: PReflop

AAQ suited is a premium holding, love the raise, love the big sizing.

Flop

Spoiler: Flop

This is about as safe as flops get. There is some risk of sets as I would think some villains might have some 88x here, even calling a preflop raise. But there's a lot of air here as well, and there will be a lot of flopped draws here. We don't have the :As: so I would assume the nut flush draw will call if we bet and we don't want to pass on a chance to collect on that (or in other words, let such a player draw for free) We can also expect to collect from other overpairs here.

Checking however is defensible because it is going to be what I call a "high leverage." We can assume we are dead if an 8 hits or a spade hits so there is something to be said for seeing if we catch a safe card first. We wouldn't love broadway cards here as I expect villains may have other overpairs. And this is the big downside to checking is we are denying ourselves value from these hands.

Still the upside of checking is we can put more pressure on the nut flush draw to fold if it misses and there's only one card left to come. We can probably assume the board pairing 8s would be bad as well. Ideally we would like to see a 2 come off so anyone drawing to 8x can't improve to a better two pair.

Turn

Spoiler: Turn

I think this is a pretty good laydown here given the player is raising two players and some straight draws have complete. It sucks because as played, hero is at about the top of his range here. Meaning folding this means he can be bluffed with impunity. I suppose hero can have some spade draws he can defend with, but hero will almost never have sets, straights, or even straight draws here.

 

[Legend5555]

True, but this was a raised pot pre-flop, not just a bunch of limpers. You want pairs to call here (and they will), and you want the draws to call too - but giving free turn cards to a wide range of hands is not wise.

I'm not betting to get anyone to fold.... but picking up a 20bb pot in a tournament isn't a bad outcome, either.

I'm thinking of it more in terms of our own range as well. We can't have anything super strong here, but the limp callers can have all the sets, two pairs, and combo draws. This flop in this setup seems like a spot where we want to check our entire range We are capped at overpair and big flush draws. We just don't have good visibility over the rest of the hand when we get called or raised and are really just hoping for a check down if we bet and get called. So why bloat the pot?

 

[Legend5555]

The preflop raise is where I'm uncertain. I'm between 2 other possibilities:

1) giving up on thinning the field, checking, and hoping for a set vs. set matchup (where I'll probably end up stacking the villan)

2) Go stronger on the raise (10 BBs maybe) knowing that I'll either not get any action or still end up with the same number of Villans

With the stack sizes, I'm leaning more towards trying option 1.

You still have to raise this hand. AA with a nut suit. Yeah, it sucks we are OOP, but your hand is so strong. Gotta build the pot for when we get favorable boards. Can't win big pots unless you build them.

 

[JustinInMN]

True, but this was a raised pot pre-flop, not just a bunch of limpers. You want pairs to call here (and they will), and you want the draws to call too - but giving free turn cards to a wide range of hands is not wise.

I'm not betting to get anyone to fold.... but picking up a 20bb pot in a tournament isn't a bad outcome, either.

I have to agree with @BGinGA , I'm still c-betting small on the flop.

I think I can find a fold here with being raised on a turn bet and having another player reraise. I don't like potential straights with two flush draws out there. I'd be more likely to continue heads up, but there's no way aces are good here three ways.

OP's line was fine with the exception of not betting small on the flop, though in retrospect, neither player with the straight draw or set was going anywhere.

I'm thinking of it more in terms of our own range as well. We can't have anything super strong here, but the limp callers can have all the sets, two pairs, and combo draws. This flop in this setup seems like a spot where we want to check our entire range We are capped at overpair and big flush draws. We just don't have good visibility over the rest of the hand when we get called or raised and are really just hoping for a check down if we bet and get called. So why bloat the pot?

This really is the dilemma, @Legend5555 is right this flop is bad for hero's range except for the spades he can have. But @BGinGA is right that we want to give ourselves a chance to collect from other overpairs and I would add spade draws. This flop isn't great for villains either, but probably better for them than us as hero. I guess I would expect villains to have 987 and the like more often than hero I suppose.

I landed with @BGinGA and would have bet the flop. But, there is some argument for waiting for the turn if it's safe.

 

[Jaqk80]

Thanks for the tip @JustinInMN !

All the different perspectives is why I love the game!

The reason for the check on the flop is that (I believe) we will have trouble getting value out of almost any hand on that flop, but the reverse is not true. Yes, I think a c-bet is reasonable, but I'm hoping villains all fold when I do it.

Note that there were no preflop raises ahead of us on the BB. So I think we need to discount JJ+ as being in and Villans' range as they would have likely raised with these hands. TT and 99 are possible, but they're boxed in that they need to at least consider that we're holding a higher pair and thus have problems continuing with heavy pressure, and should they hit, they're facing nasty RIOs against the straight draws which gets even wors if they're not holding a spade. 55, 44, 33 can't continue without intending to bluff if the draws hit which is dicey in a 4-way pot. Exceptions would be the SB assuming a BB c-bet folds around to (but they will have to play OOP) and any villain that is discarding the As. 88 can continue and bluff the straight draws but are in trouble if a spade shows up.

Long story short, I think trying to get value out of missed pairs is ambitious. Also once we discount JJ+, the probability of villain hitting set swells as pocket pair are far more likely (I'm guessing SB was also holding a small PP) and all 3 flop cards are in the heart of Villains' set mining range. In many ways KsJh4s is a much more comfortable flop to c-bet given the pre-fop action.

Against the draws, Villian has a massive 15+ outs between value and bluffs that they can wield with us being OOP against all except the SB. At a 10 BB c-bet, both the draws and the hands that are way ahead of us can call and we'd still have no idea what we're up against.

Checking the flop puts pressure on the sets to start extracting value out of the draws and I'm surprised that UTG did not bet their set. Furthermore the check on the flop does not prevent us from resuming our aggression should a non-space J+ show up or everyone checks the flop.

Note that I'm not claiming to be an expert; just sharing the thought process.

 

[JustinInMN]

Note that there were no preflop raises ahead of us on the BB. So I think we need to discount JJ+ as being in and Villans' range as they would have likely raised with these hands. TT and 99 are possible,

I think you are overdiscounting a little bit. I don't think JJ and QQ are premium at all in pineapple unless they are accompanied by a suited connector. Most of these hands are for limping and looking for a flop like this.

That said, I don't hate the flop check even though I landed on betting, but that does feel like a give up line most of the time given how many "scary" turns you listed, it seems to make sense to try and get some hands to fold. You can also fold pretty safely to a raise if you face one.

It's hard to know, I do think you played this thoughtfully even if we get to a different conclusion. It's usually an indication the decision is close.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I think the hand is fine as played, though I do agree with posters who support a c-bet for value. You'll get calls from smaller overpairs and draws, and the hands that beat you will identify themselves pretty quickly.

My group plays both Pineapple and Crazy Pineapple, but we call them "Regrets" and "No Regrets" respectively.

 

[Jaqk80]

I think the hand is fine as played, though I do agree with posters who support a c-bet for value. You'll get calls from smaller overpairs and draws, and the hands that beat you will identify themselves pretty quickly.

My group plays both Pineapple and Crazy Pineapple, but we call them "Regrets" and "No Regrets" respectively.

I'm jealous!

How did you find the group? The only No Regrets live game I've seen is in Vegas and I was always working when those were going on and I was in town.

@JustinInMN I hear you on QQ and JJ and agree.

And thanks for the discussion everyone!

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I'm jealous!

How did you find the group? The only No Regrets live game I've seen is in Vegas and I was always working when those were going on and I was in town.

Actually they found me. A friend I'd been playing with for years started his own game, and it took a little while but I finally got an invite.

When I joined, they were playing Hold'em only, with frequent double board bomb pots. I've been trying to spice up the group a bit: they now play regular and Crazy Pineapple, Drawmaha, Omaha, and last week I introduced them to SHESHE. Some of the guys still want to play mostly Hold'em, but we're on our way to the circus one session at a time.

 

[Mike Wells]

Played this fine, I think. I will usually size up more pre. It's a spot where it looks like you're stealing a lot. I prob raise 4x or 5x. Down bet the flop, then decision time on the turn.