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Dinner Plans? (9 Viewers)

Poker Zombie said:
Breakfast plans?

Last night we had smoked salmon. It was a bit much for 2 people (I originally intended to feed 4 with the salmon but called an audible when I didn't like how the salmon would pair with the various cheeses on the charcuterie tray that I set out for my guests (who were in town for a Zombie Poker Club Hall of Fame photo shoot). @Mrs Poker Zombie has the pics of our dinner, but the leftovers were perfect for a little bagel and lox tuesday.

View attachment 129420

Smoked salmon, softened cream cheese with capers and dill, on a bagel. Served with real OJ, not that "from concentrate stuff", though not as good as Florida fresh.
Click to expand...

Round one of the smoked salmon, with crostini, mushrooms, olives, and cheeses.

2017-10-23 19.01.37.jpg


Then for dessert, to celebrate our 13th wedding anniversary, raspberry crepes. They even say "13 years". :)
2017-10-23 20.49.45.jpg
 
Poker Zombie said:
I love the reverse sear - it is the only way for dry cooking. Your meal looks so friggin' good!

I will argue the video till the cows come home (and give me their juicy prime rib) that prime rib should be cooked, bone-in, and I personally think that he added a lot of useless seasonings to a fantastic prime rib.

I will not argue his grilling though - that was spot on.
Click to expand...

You know the big problem in my opinion is that so many meat departments are selling rib roasts with the bones already cut off and then tied back on with string. Sure it makes it easier to remove the bones and carve the meat after cooking but it just destroys the integrity of the cut during the cooking process and results in dryer meat. I'd always prefer to do bone on roasts, but if the bones were already cut off, I'd probably cook it as a boneless roast similar to what he did in the video. Agree on the unnecessary seasoning though.
 
I would think the ribs would still be a good insulator, even tied back on. Never had to try though, as my butchers (Porter Road Butcher (local), Publix, and Sam's Club) all leave them in place. Also, I make my own stocks. I take the slow roasted bone and throw it into a bag in the freezer. Once I have a sackful I can make my own stock which is far superior when making a demi-glace, because I control the salt (which is intensified in a demi-glace).
 
Poker Zombie said:
I would think the ribs would still be a good insulator, even tied back on. Never had to try though, as my butchers (Porter Road Butcher (local), Publix, and Sam's Club) all leave them in place. Also, I make my own stocks. I take the slow roasted bone and throw it into a bag in the freezer. Once I have a sackful I can make my own stock which is far superior when making a demi-glace, because I control the salt (which is intensified in a demi-glace).
Click to expand...

Yep, I do the same although since it's a good bit of work to make, I spring for buying 10lbs of bones and doing a big batch all at once. Luckily I have an asian market where I can get good beef bones for a buck a lb.
 
If you missed it from the home games thread, I cooked an 11 lb prime rib Sous Vide for our year-ending game. Cooked for 26 hours, then seared over an applewood fire (and blowtorch) It was, by far, the most fantastic PR I've ever had, and the others aren't even close. Several people told me it was the best they ever had. It was utterly fantastic! Meaty but so tender that you could cut it with a plastic knife on a paper plate without much pressure.

The day @detroitdad stops by, I know now exactly what's for dinner.
 
Poker Zombie said:
If you missed it from the home games thread, I cooked an 11 lb prime rib Sous Vide for our year-ending game. Cooked for 26 hours, then seared over an applewood fire (and blowtorch) It was, by far, the most fantastic PR I've ever had, and the others aren't even close. Several people told me it was the best they ever had. It was utterly fantastic! Meaty but so tender that you could cut it with a plastic knife on a paper plate without much pressure.

The day @detroitdad stops by, I know now exactly what's for dinner.
Click to expand...

What temp do you guys cook your meat at when doing the Sous Vide method?
 
We had the prime rib at 124.7 for about 15 hours, but I was concerned the fat wasn't going to melt enough, so I upped it to 127 for the remaining 9 hours.

Tonight I cut my leftovers with a spoon.

The only bad part was when there is no more left on the plate. :(
 
So you are aware, for long cooks anything below 130 is very dangerous as some pretty serious bacterial growth can occur at those temps. Most online sources recommend that you not cook at those temps for more than 2 hours. When I do 30 hour chuck it's always at 131 F

Poker Zombie said:
We had the prime rib at 124.7 for about 15 hours, but I was concerned the fat wasn't going to melt enough, so I upped it to 127 for the remaining 9 hours.

Tonight I cut my leftovers with a spoon.

The only bad part was when there is no more left on the plate. :(
Click to expand...
 
ttttubby said:
So you are aware, for long cooks anything below 130 is very dangerous as some pretty serious bacterial growth can occur at those temps. Most online sources recommend that you not cook at those temps for more than 2 hours. When I do 30 hour chuck it's always at 131 F
Click to expand...

That is a misnomer.

Most websites recommends cooking to 131F, because of the short time periods (3 hours or less) that meat is generally exposed to the low heat. However, the longer bacteria is exposed to heat the greater the chance it has of dying. Think of walking into a 120F degree desert. You would be hot, but not dying. Spend 24 hours in that relentless heat and you would probably be dead, or pretty close to it.

These recommendations of 131F are for lonely old meat. My meat is salted. It's also peppered and coffeed, but that's not as important as the salt here. Salt provides an inhospitable environment for bacteria as well. Did you know you can actually keep meat at room temperature if you add enough salt? Ask your great-grandparents. Before refrigeration, this was how meat was stored. Salting, or smoking (which also creates an environment that pathogens do not like) are excellent ways to preserve meat.

I am combining 2 environments that our pesky microbe friends do not like. Heat and salt. Remember our desert scenario? Add a salty diet to your desert walk and you won't make it the day. My salty friend also got a heavy dose of coffee, which is mildly acidic. Acid also kills our miniature friends and out desert traveler. Someday I may show you my ceviche. It's fish that is fully cooked, but never exposed to heat.

Now, for your 30 hour chuck, I would stick with 131F because this is the lowest temperature at which (insoluble) collagen denatures (dissolves) into gelatin. My ribeye still had nice lines of extremely tender fat. This is important (to me) in a prime rib, because you want a whole slice of meat with prime rib, not chunks like you expect with a chuck roast. By finding the sweet spot between killing bacteria and preserving mouth-feel, you can get delicious, food without any risk.

Note: If you don't trust the temps, err on the side of more heat. I used 2 thermometers (the sous vide plus another one) to check the water temp throughout the night. My secondary thermometer has been recently calibrated to +/- 0.7 degree F.
 
I don't think its a misnomer at all:

From http://douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Safety:
"If the food is not being pasteurized (as is the case with fish and rare meat), it is important that the food come up to temperature and be served within four hours. Unlike conventional cooking methods, this is easily accomplished by cutting the food into individual portion sizes before cooking–which is why cooking times over four hours are not shown for temperatures below 131°F (55°C). It is important that only immune-competent individuals consume unpasteurized food and that they understand the risks associated with eating unpasteurized food."

Listeria, E. Coli, and C. Botulism can all survive and even thrive at 125, and the toxins they create will still be there after they're dead. That is why it is not recommended to do long cooks below 130 sous vide. Note too that the USDA calls for 140 to pasturize meat, but that is because they aren't accounting for the long term consistent heat that can kill pathogens over a longer period of time. This is why 130 is the magic number for pasteurizing meat using sous vide. Go below that and you might slow bacteria down, but you aren't necessarily killing it... which is why your 125 degree rib roast sounds pretty dangerous to me, salt or no.

Poker Zombie said:
That is a misnomer.

Most websites recommends cooking to 131F, because of the short time periods (3 hours or less) that meat is generally exposed to the low heat. However, the longer bacteria is exposed to heat the greater the chance it has of dying. Think of walking into a 120F degree desert. You would be hot, but not dying. Spend 24 hours in that relentless heat and you would probably be dead, or pretty close to it.

These recommendations of 131F are for lonely old meat. My meat is salted. It's also peppered and coffeed, but that's not as important as the salt here. Salt provides an inhospitable environment for bacteria as well. Did you know you can actually keep meat at room temperature if you add enough salt? Ask your great-grandparents. Before refrigeration, this was how meat was stored. Salting, or smoking (which also creates an environment that pathogens do not like) are excellent ways to preserve meat.

I am combining 2 environments that our pesky microbe friends do not like. Heat and salt. Remember our desert scenario? Add a salty diet to your desert walk and you won't make it the day. My salty friend also got a heavy dose of coffee, which is mildly acidic. Acid also kills our miniature friends and out desert traveler. Someday I may show you my ceviche. It's fish that is fully cooked, but never exposed to heat.

Now, for your 30 hour chuck, I would stick with 131F because this is the lowest temperature at which (insoluble) collagen denatures (dissolves) into gelatin. My ribeye still had nice lines of extremely tender fat. This is important (to me) in a prime rib, because you want a whole slice of meat with prime rib, not chunks like you expect with a chuck roast. By finding the sweet spot between killing bacteria and preserving mouth-feel, you can get delicious, food without any risk.

Note: If you don't trust the temps, err on the side of more heat. I used 2 thermometers (the sous vide plus another one) to check the water temp throughout the night. My secondary thermometer has been recently calibrated to +/- 0.7 degree F.
Click to expand...
 
Well sure Listeria which lives in milk and water, and is found in pates and bologna. CDC recommends not eating a bologna sandwich unless it's cooked first, but I bet most of us survived a childhood despite this risk. It is not found deep in the animal tissues. Any that might survive on the outer cut of the rib roast will certainly be cooked by the blowtorch finish, and will not get into the rest of the meat.

E. Coli comes from animal feces. It doesn't take a lot of animal poop to get in your mouth to make you sick if it is infected with the bad strain of E. Coli (there are other strains that are not harmful to humans). The bad E. Coli produces a toxin called Shiga toxin. Luckily, the prime rib is located far and away from the intestines of the animal and are safe from it's fecal matter (unless really poorly butchered). If you buy a whole rib roast, there will be no chance to get the Shiga toxin into your food, unless it was poorly butchered - in which case the toxin would be on the outside of the meat and would be subjected to the blowtorch.

C. Botulism: (from the CDC) The bacteria that make botulinum toxin are found naturally in many places, but it’s rare for them to make people sick. These bacteria make spores, which act like protective coatings. Spores help the bacteria survive in the environment, even in extreme conditions. The spores usually do not cause people to become sick, even when they’re eaten. But under certain conditions, these spores can grow and make one of the most lethal toxins known. The conditions in which the spores can grow and make toxin are:
  • Low-oxygen or no oxygen (anaerobic) environment
  • Low acid
  • Low sugar
  • Low salt
  • A certain temperature range 38F-118F
  • A certain amount of water
By keeping the meat refrigerated then heated to a temp that will kill off this critter, you will be safe.

But if you are really concerned about food safety, I'm glad I didn't show you this...
2014-06-18 19.59.56.jpg


The far right is steak tartare. A raw egg on top of raw beef. They serve this monstrosity in restaurants. It is delicious.

It's also mostly safe (people that have weakened immune systems may wish to steer clear). Don't be that guy that lives in a bubble because of fear. Learn all you can and make informed decisions. The website you linked isn't bad, but it comes up well short of a biology degree.
 
If you need help on the cheese sauce, you know where to reach me.

A few years back I was working on Thanksgiving. We did all the shopping ahead of time (the store in our district closes for holidays). One guy was really upset that we didn't have mac and cheese, apparently a family tradition for him.

We had a box of macaroni noodles, and about 6 packages of miscellaneous cheeses (shredded and slices) left over from previous meals. I told him I would make some, though admittedly I have never had macaroni and cheese in adulthood (long story). He was really doubtful because "It has to be the good stuff from the box".

He admitted he was wrong after I caught him running his fingers around the empty pot and licking them.
 
I love rare steak as much as the next guy though admittedly I'm not a huge fan of steak tar tar. A little by of risk isn't a problem especially when you can mitigate it by sourcing things well. The problem has to do with the length of time you are potentially letting the bacteria multiply at that low heat. It makes things riskier than they need to be. I'm glad you've so far avoided trouble but I maintain that if you are cooking Sous vide for that long at that low of a temp you are eventually going to get sick. But you do you. A couple of degrees would change that possibility from inevitable to almost impossible.

Poker Zombie said:
Well sure Listeria which lives in milk and water, and is found in pates and bologna. CDC recommends not eating a bologna sandwich unless it's cooked first, but I bet most of us survived a childhood despite this risk. It is not found deep in the animal tissues. Any that might survive on the outer cut of the rib roast will certainly be cooked by the blowtorch finish, and will not get into the rest of the meat.

E. Coli comes from animal feces. It doesn't take a lot of animal poop to get in your mouth to make you sick if it is infected with the bad strain of E. Coli (there are other strains that are not harmful to humans). The bad E. Coli produces a toxin called Shiga toxin. Luckily, the prime rib is located far and away from the intestines of the animal and are safe from it's fecal matter (unless really poorly butchered). If you buy a whole rib roast, there will be no chance to get the Shiga toxin into your food, unless it was poorly butchered - in which case the toxin would be on the outside of the meat and would be subjected to the blowtorch.

C. Botulism: (from the CDC) The bacteria that make botulinum toxin are found naturally in many places, but it’s rare for them to make people sick. These bacteria make spores, which act like protective coatings. Spores help the bacteria survive in the environment, even in extreme conditions. The spores usually do not cause people to become sick, even when they’re eaten. But under certain conditions, these spores can grow and make one of the most lethal toxins known. The conditions in which the spores can grow and make toxin are:
  • Low-oxygen or no oxygen (anaerobic) environment
  • Low acid
  • Low sugar
  • Low salt
  • A certain temperature range 38F-118F
  • A certain amount of water
By keeping the meat refrigerated then heated to a temp that will kill off this critter, you will be safe.

But if you are really concerned about food safety, I'm glad I didn't show you this...
View attachment 132512

The far right is steak tartare. A raw egg on top of raw beef. They serve this monstrosity in restaurants. It is delicious.

It's also mostly safe (people that have weakened immune systems may wish to steer clear). Don't be that guy that lives in a bubble because of fear. Learn all you can and make informed decisions. The website you linked isn't bad, but it comes up well short of a biology degree.
Click to expand...
 
ttttubby said:
I love rare steak as much as the next guy though admittedly I'm not a huge fan of steak tar tar. A little by of risk isn't a problem especially when you can mitigate it by sourcing things well. The problem has to do with the length of time you are potentially letting the bacteria multiply at that low heat. It makes things riskier than they need to be. I'm glad you've so far avoided trouble but I maintain that if you are cooking Sous vide for that long at that low of a temp you are eventually going to get sick. But you do you. A couple of degrees would change that possibility from inevitable to almost impossible.
Click to expand...

As someone with a Bachelors in Biology, who has spent a lot of time in the lab, I believe you are over simplifying this discussion. Temperature is not the only driver of bacteria growth. They need food, water, and shelter to grow -- just like humans. Food - yes, got it, the item being cooked. Water - let's assume you don't have dry protein. But in the "shelter" category you have pH, light, concentration of gases, pressure, in addition to the above mentioned temperature. Thinks like oils and salt change the pH. The gases are totally different in a sous vide bag versus sitting on the counter. The pressure is obviously higher than normal given the vacuum behavior. Therefore, it is not logical to assume a difference of a few degrees changes your "inevitable to almost impossible". If you have a full study you'd like to site that controls all those variables, I'm game to read it.
 
By a show of hands... how many others have already started cooking their Thanksgiving dinner?

Canadians need not reply, because metric Thanksgiving comes early.
 

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