Flop a Straight Flush, what do I do? (2 Viewers)

JB, I should clarify, that nobody liked the flop as much as me. It's A very wet board, especially in a limped pot. Even flopping a set, you can't feel super confident in this spot. I personally would bet a set on this board (just me), to see where I'm at, protect against any draws. In early position, with the nutz, I think I'm checking the flop...

Okay but you claim to have made this "read" after the only action you had observed is SB's flop check, so how could you possibly know that no one liked this flop?
 
I C-bet if these guys are nitty like you say, if someone likes this card as you say then it will get called or raised...then I call the raise
 
Which makes it even more confusing how you could have the read after the SB checks to you in the BB that the other four or five players in the hand aren't happy with the flop. But I digress...

So you have the stone nuts on a three-flush board and you want to get value for your hand from nitty, ABC players. It is absolutely a bet.

It's very simple. Literally just go through the decision tree:

If you bet in the range of 2-3 BBs, what do you expect them to call with? They'll call always with all sets, always with a straight, often with weak or middling flushes, often with Kc, often with an ace and a big club, sometimes with a big flush or the nuts. What will they raise with? Often with a big flush or the nuts, rarely with weak or middling flushes, rarely with sets and rarely with a made straight.

If you check, what hands do you expect them to bet? A nitty, ABC player will often check his entire range here. You will sometimes get a guy to bet a weak or middling flush to protect. But what if you check raise? He's folding 95% of the time. He will often even check the nut (non straight) flush here with the same thinking displayed elsewhere in this thread so he doesn't "scare" anyone. And what if you raise? Obviously he will get it in. But that's no different than if you simply bet and let him raise or size your bets so that you get all the money in by the river if he elects to flat three streets. So you realize no advantage by check raising when your opponent holds the nut flush.

In summary, if they hold a set, a straight, the Kc, or an ace with a big club, they'll call your bet, but they will check if checked to. If they hold a weak/middling flush, they'll bet fold if you check raise. If they hold a big flush, and you check raise, they will get it in with the nut (non straight) flush, and very occasionally bet fold with a big flush and they will very often raise if you bet or call of their stack by the river if you bet the flop.

By betting, you get value from non-flush hands that will not bet the flop. When you're against a big hand, you give up nothing because the outcome is going to be the same the vast majority of the time: the money will be in the middle by the end of the hand no matter whether you check or bet the flop.

I change my mind. Bet. Fwiw I never claimed to be good at this game :)
 
Fold pre obv.

As played, bet the flop, bet the turn, jam the river.

As played after your flop check, I would clutch my chest and feign a massive heart attack while accidentally bumping the table and popping some chips into the middle of the table. Stay down until either the paramedics get there (bad beat) or someone calls the chips in the middle a bet and jams to steal. Then get up and call and table the nuts.

Cliffs:
- Fold pre
- Bet turn
- Feign heart attack turn

If you check the turn, you should consider attending the game every week still, but as a bartender.
 
Okay but you claim to have made this "read" after the only action you had observed is SB's flop check, so how could you possibly know that no one liked this flop?

I didn't make any sort of table read that people were hating this flop. Just that unless you have my hand, or maybe :kc::qc: type hands, you're not likely to feel overly comfortable with this flop.

I flopped the nutz, in EP. I checked. I think an argument could be made for betting, but I also think an argument can be made for checking. But I welcome hearing both arguments.

My main reads were that UTG was contemplating a bet on the flop, but checked. And that he also felt comfortable with the :8d: turn. I also noticed a guy in late position had some sort of reaction to the turn.
 
I didn't make any sort of table read that people were hating this flop. Just that unless you have my hand, or maybe :kc::qc: type hands, you're not likely to feel overly comfortable with this flop.

Not sure how this thinking can be correct. If we flop the nuts on a static board, we should always just assume that no one else likes the board and use that assumption to determine whether to bet our hand? Sounds like a recipe for getting paid nothing for our big hands.
 
This is why you're a better player than I. But apparently you missed the part where I was in the BB and saw the flop for free?

Sure, you may think you saw it for free. You'll probably win some money with the nuts too. But rarely is the question asked, how much did you lose?
 
continuing:

After the :8d: turn, my read is UTG is itching to bet. I can't recall exactly what he was doing, cutting chips, etc, but I'm certain he's betting.

My game plan was to lead out on the turn, but for some reason I decide to check. Probably 4K in the pot, UTG leads out for 6k. The guy in late position calls, and it's back on me. What do I do? Flat or C/R?
 
Pretty simple situation. 5-handed this is a must bet flop in order to build a pot. There are a lot of combos and made hands that can come along for a street or two. Even the nittiest players should bet this flop 5-handed imo. How to play turn and river for me would depend on hero image and that of opponent(s) who give action.
 
Depends on their stack sizes.

Starting stacks are a bit fuzzy for me. It's a tourney I don't often play in, and the chip colors are atypical. I think I started the hand with around 70k, UTG has 90k and LP has maybe 50k. Pot is now around 20k, waiting on my decision.
 
I'm raising turn to 14 or 15k. If called in either spot it's an easy river jam.
 
Tough spot, I want to just call but we got to get more in the pot.

I say call, check, and jam his bet.
 
Flop comes :ac::3c::5c:. SB checks. What do we do? Check or bet?
Checking is really, really bad here - it's level 1 thinking. Bet 350. We want to get money in the pot, but more importantly, we want four callers. More players to see the turn means a greater likelihood that somebody makes a hand that will pay us off. If nobody calls, then nobody was gonna bet anyway if you checked.

Yeah, I know that under-betting might not fly. If somebody complains, bump it up to the BB size with a simple 'doh, sorry'. You will end up with more players and more chips in the pot than if you bet out with 2BB.... both of which are good things in this spot.

Fold pre obv.
apparently you missed the part where I was in the BB and saw the flop for free?
Not really free, unless you skipped posting your blind or took it back before the flop. That aside, there are no rules stopping you from mucking your hand on your action pre-flop. Would have totally eliminated your dilemma on how to play the hand, and stopped you from blundering on both the flop and the turn. Poker is about making good decisions.





.
 
Checking is really, really bad here - it's level 1 thinking. Bet 350. We want to get money in the pot, but more importantly, we want four callers. More players to see the turn means a greater likelihood that somebody makes a hand that will pay us off. If nobody calls, then nobody was gonna bet anyway if you checked.

Yeah, I know that under-betting might not fly. If somebody complains, bump it up to the BB size with a simple 'doh, sorry'. You will end up with more players and more chips in the pot than if you bet out with 2BB.... both of which are good things in this spot.



Not really free, unless you skipped posting your blind or took it back before the flop. That aside, there are no rules stopping you from mucking your hand on your action pre-flop. Would have totally eliminated your dilemma on how to play the hand, and stopped you from blundering on both the flop and the turn. Poker is about making good decisions.
.


This is why these strat threads are good. So many ppl here Would play this wrong. I counted 11 ppl (including me) who initially indicated checking the flop, and 5 ppl who advocated betting. And these votes tend to fall into player styles. Very interesting.

As to the free cards in the BB, they're only costly if you go crazy when you connect and
Run into rio issues with subpar holdings.

I understand that poker is about making good decisions. I agree with this 100%. I also understand that we need to factor the players into these decisions. I think the lines we take need to factor this. If I'm playing a game with bergs courage or jbutler or BG, I think I play differently than if I'm playing regular joes in a bar game. Not sure if this makes sense, but I'm trying to get in the heads of my opponents.

I think with this crew, leading out in the flop like this from EP (with my tight image) might get one caller, or potentially a bunch of folds. It will scream flush, str, or set at a minimum. I scoop 4K.

I'm appreciating the feedback, since I do think there's room for improvement in how I played the hand.

Still looking for thoughts on how to proceed after the 6k bet from UTG and call from LP.

Flat/raise?
 
This is why these strat threads are good. So many ppl here Would play this wrong. I counted 11 ppl (including me) who initially indicated checking the flop, and 5 ppl who advocated betting. And these votes tend to fall into player styles. Very interesting.

As to the free cards in the BB, they're only costly if you go crazy when you connect and
Run into rio issues with subpar holdings.

I understand that poker is about making good decisions. I agree with this 100%. I also understand that we need to factor the players into these decisions. I think the lines we take need to factor this. If I'm playing a game with bergs courage or jbutler or BG, I think I play differently than if I'm playing regular joes in a bar game. Not sure if this makes sense, but I'm trying to get in the heads of my opponents.

I think with this crew, leading out in the flop like this from EP (with my tight image) might get one caller, or potentially a bunch of folds. It will scream flush, str, or set at a minimum. I scoop 4K.

I'm appreciating the feedback, since I do think there's room for improvement in how I played the hand.

Still looking for thoughts on how to proceed after the 6k bet from UTG and call from LP.

Flat/raise?


Not saying you don't have a tight image in your mind, but like you said this is "regular joes in a bar game". In my experience, these types of players are first level thinkers, and don't really factor in people's images nearly as much as they should. Also, they tend to be not so aggressive in betting, but tend to be calling stations. Not saying this is true of your particular group, but in general that's how I would read the situation, so I would advocate betting the flop.

Anyway, as played, I would raise on the larger side. Min-raise seems like you have a strong hand, and you're afraid of losing people. Even bar players probably pick up on that. If you squeeze on the larger side, it might look like you're making a play at the pot. If the one guy who was itching to bet twice is as strong as he seems, he may pile it all-in here. So I make it $26k to go, and try to sit as still as possible, hold my breath, and avoid eye contact, just in case someone is paying attention.
 
I hope hero is taking careful notes for the future if he thinks the table folds for a one or two BB bet. If that is true, Hero should be really active with small bets, harvesting the unwanted pots. I wish we could have tested this in real time and seen what happened.

Let's keep in mind that a lot of villain holdings totally miss a flop like this one. It doesn't matter what Hero does, those villains are folding to the first aggression. So bet the flop. turn or river - even check it down - it didn't make a difference. Hero needs to disregard those holdings and focus on extraction from someone who has enough of the flop to contribute more chips to the pot. If the villain(s) are LAGtards, you trap. If the villain(s) are passive you bet something.

Knowing nothing about the villains, I always bet.
 
I was speaking for myself, not Hero. When I know nothing about the villains, I always bet flopped monsters in a limped pot except top set / top full house on a dry board.
 
This is why these strat threads are good. So many ppl here Would play this wrong. I counted 11 ppl (including me) who initially indicated checking the flop, and 5 ppl who advocated betting. And these votes tend to fall into player styles. Very interesting.

If you don't yet have a well-developed understanding of poker, it's easy to think that the basic line of reasoning is: "I flopped a monster, I should slowplay."

This is dead wrong.

The proper thought is, "I flopped a monster. It's safe to slowplay, because that's unlikely to lose me the hand."

That's all the monster means. It means it's safe to slowplay. It doesn't mean you should. The reason you should slowplay is if it's likely to win you more money... and slowplaying does NOT always win you more money. It very often wins you less.

It doesn't matter what Hero does, those villains are folding to the first aggression. So bet the flop. turn or river - even check it down - it didn't make a difference.

Exactly. The hands that are not going to pay you are not going to pay you; don't predicate your strategy on trying to get blood from a stone. Think about the hands that would pay you; how do you get them involved? How do you build the pot that they want to call (or steal) on the turn?

Slowplaying is the rare exception, and it's best saved for when someone else is already taking the lead. If nobody is taking the lead and building your pot for you, you should almost always build your own pot.

Seriously, you make money in poker by betting while they're behind and drawing. You don't make money by waiting until they know they've lost. This is especially true at a table of "average Joes."

Another way to tell checking is bad advice: the typical amateur advice on this hand contradicts itself, based on what you have.

Amateur advice with the straight flush: check the flop, you don't want to lose all the action.

Amateur advice if you totally miss this flop: you can't bluff, there are too many players; probably several have draws or an ace and will call you.

These can't both be true!
 
Great advice so. Onto the river.

I decide to Flat the 6k bet, (and here's where I ultimately believed I might have missed value). I actually think my mistake was checking the turn, even though I was certain UTG was going to bet. I think because I checked the turn, it forced me to flat his bet. I think if I C/R, it looks rediculously strong against these villains. I think I'll get insta mucks possibly. I'm not check raising without a straight or flush on this board. Unless I'm bluffing. So I feel like if there's any chance of getting more money from these villains, I have to flat. A better play would have been to lead out, take control, and allow him to raise us if he has a made hand. Granted, (I had said my plan was to lead out, but I probably would have only bet pot 4K).

Onto the river. Our board is :ac::3c::5c:. :8d: And the river is a :js:

What's our move?

And I want to thank those who have provided advice without being mean or condescending. I'm putting out there what I admitted from the start was not optimal play. I don't always play every hand the same, I mix up my play quite a bit, and I take different lines based on my gut, my perception of what might extract value (win the hands), etc.. In mixing up my play, I don't always take the correct line. But for those who say a certain move is "always" or "never" the right move are IMHO probably not high level players. (Ok, there are some crazy exceptions).

Ok, what do we do here? I'm guessing folks will say lead out? Pot is $25-26k.
 
Last edited:

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom