Flop a Straight Flush, what do I do? (1 Viewer)

[Chippy McChiperson]

You could jam, it might look like a missed flush draw. Although that's image dependent I guess, and if you say you think your image is that of a tight player it probably wouldn't work. Honestly, when a nit check calls two streets and leads out into me I know they are super strong. Based on your actions so far, I think checking and hoping that UTG bets again may be your best hope. I hate saying that, because checking and expecting other people to bet your hand for you usually doesn't work so well, but anything else you do should raise huge alarms.

 

[CraigT78]

At this point, I am leading out with a 1/2 to 3/4 pot sized bet. No way I check, and anything more probably gives too much fold potential.

 

[jbutler]

Honestly at this point anyone with a pulse and 10 minutes of experience playing any form of poker will be on red alert as soon as you lead out. No player in the history of NLHE has checked a flop versus a bunch of limpers, check overcalled the turn, and led the river without having the stone cold nuts.

If these people are nitty ABC players as you describe, they're only calling with the top of their range and they're often folding hands as good as sets to a substantial bet. I would be 15k and expect to get one call about 50% of the time.

 

[mummel]

Check, all-in. I think UTG will bet $20k.

 

[jbutler]

Check, all-in. I think UTG will bet $20k.

Of all the options, this is almost certainly the worst.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Of all the options, this is almost certainly the worst.

You can't Czech Jam without the Czech, Jack.

 

[jbutler]

You can't Czech Jam without the Czech, Jack.

Have we gotten a ruling from @Tommy as to whether I won't have to look at your undertitle anymore after BBotB? Or, like past presidents are always Mr. President, will you forever be the SOHE World Champion?

#NotMySOHEWorldChampion

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Have we gotten a ruling from @Tommy as to whether I won't have to look at your undertitle anymore after BBotB? Or, like past presidents are always Mr. President, will you forever be the SOHE World Champion?

#NotMySOHEWorldChampion

I will forever be a SOHE World Champion, much like how Jerry Yang and Jamie Gold will always be World Champs (albeit in much easier fields). In a month and a half however it will change to say 2X SOHE World Champion (2016, 2017)

 

[bentax1978]

I will forever be a SOHE World Champion, much like how Jerry Yang and Jamie Gold will always be World Champs (albeit in much easier fields). In a month and a half however it will change to say 2X SOHE World Champion (2016, 2017)

Just make it SOHE-GOAT and be done with it.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I'm waiting for a scandal to come out so I can have Tommy put disgraced former before my current undertitle

 

[jbutler]

I'm waiting for a scandal to come out so I can have Tommy put disgraced former before my current undertitle

Just an asterisk will do.

 

[bentax1978]

I'm waiting for a scandal to come out so I can have Tommy put disgraced former before my current undertitle

Just an asterisk will do.

I always suspected @Chippy McChiperson was using PEDs during the last tournament.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

If you count that toffee that @H|Q brought then hell yeah I was doping

 

[Trihonda]

*****Results*****

I am in a tough spot. Anything I do from the blinds will look super strong. If I check, it'll get checked around. If I lead out, it's going to be hard for anyone to call a sizable bet for a significant percentage of their chips. Bet sizing... I decide to to bet small enough to get a call from one/both players. I toss in two red chips (5ks) into the pot.

UTG, sighs and mumbles "great bet... can't fold for 10k". The LP tanks for a bit, then finally calls as well. I win Obv.

UTG shows a set of 3's, and the LP guy caught up on the turn with pocket 8's.

Post-hand discussion confirmed UTG was concerned with potential str and flush possibilities. When it was checked around on the flop, I think he felt he was good. Thus he bet 6k into a 4-6k pot (charge any draws?). When the set of 8's and I both called, I think this threw up red flags. I am certain it would have checked around on the river...

LP didn't say much. Other than thank god the board didn't pair...

I now believe it might have been better to lead the turn (overall +EV). However, I wouldn't have bet 6k. Only 4K, which makes the pot smaller 20k vs 26k. Then my river bet would still only be 10k.

I think leading the flop might not be a bad strategy most of the time in these spots either. But in this spot, I didn't, and got lucky. Pocket 8's would go away, and I might only get one call from UTG?

I might be getting my blind amounts wrong. I now count a final pot of nearly 60k, which is the avg stack. Might have been 600/1200?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I call b.s. I see no card protector anywhere in that picture.

 

[bentax1978]

I call b.s. I see no card protector anywhere in that picture.

The dude who flopped a set of threes already ran off with it while @Trihonda was busy taking the picture.

 

[jbutler]

It boggles my mind to realize this, but other than at meetups I've never been in a hand in which someone involved took a photo of the board and his winning hand.

 

[BGinGA]

I've seen it done when spectacular hands are involved.... quad Aces, straight flushes, and once, a Royal.

 

[jbutler]

I've seen it done when spectacular hands are involved.... quad Aces, straight flushes, and once, a Royal.

I did once see the guy who lost a huge cooler hand in $5/5 PLO ask the guy who won if he would be around in a minute to vouch for the hand history. He had to go tell his backer why he lost $5k in one hand. I guess in that scenario a photo would have been preferable...

 

[Mental Nomad]

It boggles my mind to realize this, but other than at meetups I've never been in a hand in which someone involved took a photo of the board and his winning hand.

I've actually done this... once... less than two weeks ago!

I flopped quads... three-way all in on the turn, and the other two hands were a straight and two pair (full house at the end).

Sadly, I didn't check the photo before putting the phone away, so it's blurry.

 

[courage]

The reason hero has to bet so small on river is the hand was not played as well as it could be on turn. At least the table didn't check around, or there may have been no thread.

Betting decent amount on turn or check/raising is going to get called by players with large club, sets, 2 pair, etc and get more money in the pot for river bet. You let them off cheap.

 

[Trihonda]

The reason hero has to bet so small on river is the hand was not played as well as it could be on turn. At least the table didn't check around, or there may have been no thread.

Betting decent amount on turn or check/raising is going to get called by players with large club, sets, 2 pair, etc and get more money in the pot for river bet. You let them off cheap.

Ya, I am still ok with my checking from the blinds on the flop. I don't always check the nutz, but in this spot, I think if I'm leading out from the start, I lose action.

I know I could have played the turn better for sure. I think this is where my hand's value was leaked somewhat.

Not everyday I flop the steel wheel.

 

[DrStrange]

This example is in a tournament setting with shallow stacks. Let's think about how this hand might play out in a 400bb cash game.

Hero has the steel wheel and stands to get paid off in full vs the nut flush, a full house or quads and Hero will be paid something by someone holding a set, a lesser flush, a "good" one card flush draw, two pair and maybe top pair / good kicker. The pot preflop is 5bb so Hero has a long ways to go to get the other 399bb available. It is going to take 4-5 pot sized bets or 6-7 65% pot sized bets to get the pot up to 800bb / 400bb from two players. Checking the flop makes it difficult to get villain to stack off by the river.

Missing the last bet is a huge deal vs getting a 5bb bluff bet from someone with air. It surely is going to be more common to get the extra 5bb by being tricky. But missing out on the last 200bb because villain will not 5-bet the river or call a big overbet/shove is a huge loss. I think the lost opportunity here far outweighs the modest gain - I would accept seeing a lot of folds to a flop bet knowing that every once in a while I get to cash in on a monster pot.

In this case, hero would get called one street and likely two streets by the guy holding middle set. And 35% of the time middle set turns into a boat that can stack off vs the straight flush. Hero lets the flop check through and now he only has two streets to build the pot. The hand is being played 100bb deep, so we need 4-5 bets to get all in without overbetting. Plausible even with just two streets of betting, but it is a lot easier to get there if Hero bets the flop.

And lets say villain does't boat with middle set. Hero's flop check means the turn bet is only ~3bb and then the crying call sized river bet might be something like 5bb. Hero's alternative bet/bet/bet line might look like 3bb/5bb/10bb.

I think these situations should be looked upon as a chance to grab the gold ring rather than settle for a consolation prize. We only need to win a big stack once to make up for dozens of hands where people fold to the first aggression. It will feel bad because the folding happens so often, but the expected value favors the aggressive strategy. (all of this is moot with the right kind of crazy villain(s) who can stack off on garbage.)

 

[Mental Nomad]

Dead on.

 

[jbutler]

Ya, I am still ok with my checking from the blinds on the flop. I don't always check the nutz, but in this spot, I think if I'm leading out from the start, I lose action.

It's really not close at all. The flop check is just flat out wrong.

EDIT: Okay that sounds harsh. I don't mean to be curt, but this thread is a bit like when people who come to ask for help with their custom chips and decide to defend their crappy original design instead of looking for quality help when offered. If you're looking to avoid losing value you absolutely must bet these hands all the way, especially against 4 or 5 other opponents. This isn't a case where you can have a "read." Just bet your hand.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

It's really not close at all. The flop check is just flat out wrong.

Agreed, not only are sets and straights calling, but biggish aces are probably calling at least one street, and hands like KcQx or AxJc or AxTc are probably calling at least two streets. The only hand you're folding out that pays on the turn is 88, which did happen to hit this time, but usually won't.

 

[Trihonda]

It's really not close at all. The flop check is just flat out wrong.

EDIT: Okay that sounds harsh. I don't mean to be curt, but this thread is a bit like when people who come to ask for help with their custom chips and decide to defend their crappy original design instead of looking for quality help when offered. If you're looking to avoid losing value you absolutely must bet these hands all the way, especially against 4 or 5 other opponents. This isn't a case where you can have a "read." Just bet your hand.

I do appreciate the advice. It's why I posted the thread. But to make that comparison, and get curt, is imho a bit unfair. Especially considering the initial responses to this thread were 11 in favor of checking and only 5 in favor of betting. I think educating is good, and I think people are coming around. But I don't think we are at the torches/pitchforks level quite yet. .

 

[jbutler]

I do appreciate the advice. It's why I posted the thread. But to make that comparison, and get curt, is imho a bit unfair. Especially considering the initial responses to this thread were 11 in favor of checking and only 5 in favor of betting. I think educating is good, and I think people are coming around. But I don't think we are at the torches/pitchforks level quite yet. .

It was by no means a torches and pitchforks post. If you want to go with the majority on questions of poker strategy, then you will, like the vast majority of poker players, lose your money.

 

[mummel]

But I don't think we are at the torches/pitchforks level quite yet

Its the usual cantankerous suspects. How about I change the tone. CONGRATS ON THE SF!!! I've never seen one of those at my home games.

 

[BGinGA]

Ya, I am still ok with my checking from the blinds on the flop. I don't always check the nutz, but in this spot, I think if I'm leading out from the start, I lose action.

The only action you lose is from medium pocket pairs that hit a set on the turn.

If you do the math, you'll find that the combined chances of a) facing a medium pocket pair and b) having that pair hit a two-outer on the turn are insignificant when weighed against the number of hands you could be facing that will give you action on your flop bet - and possibly even raise your bet.

Although it may 'seem' correct to not bet after flopping a monster and almost unbeatable hand, the math does not lie. Checking is a huge -ev play; even more so against weak opponents who will overplay their made hands and draws.