Flop a Straight Flush, what do I do? (3 Viewers)

[Trihonda]

It was by no means a torches and pitchforks post. If you want to go with the majority on questions of poker strategy, then you will, like the vast majority of poker players, lose your money.

Lol. True story.

 

[bergs]

Checking is really, really bad here - it's level 1 thinking. Bet 350. We want to get money in the pot, but more importantly, we want four callers. More players to see the turn means a greater likelihood that somebody makes a hand that will pay us off. If nobody calls, then nobody was gonna bet anyway if you checked.

Yeah, I know that under-betting might not fly. If somebody complains, bump it up to the BB size with a simple 'doh, sorry'. You will end up with more players and more chips in the pot than if you bet out with 2BB.... both of which are good things in this spot.

So basically you're advocating angle shooting with the stone cold immortal nuts? Interesting.

 

[bergs]

And I want to thank those who have provided advice without being mean or condescending. I'm putting out there what I admitted from the start was not optimal play. I don't always play every hand the same, I mix up my play quite a bit, and I take different lines based on my gut, my perception of what might extract value (win the hands), etc.. In mixing up my play, I don't always take the correct line. But for those who say a certain move is "always" or "never" the right move are IMHO probably not high level players. (Ok, there are some crazy exceptions).

Ok, what do we do here? I'm guessing folks will say lead out? Pot is $25-26k.

Well, for starters, I'm never, never, never, never folding at any point with this hand.

 

[bergs]

You missed the part where he had reads based on...something presumably.

He had reads based on things he forgot, but then he decided to do something other than what he originally decided to do because of reasons he can't remember.

I have to ask - is this Donald Trump posting as Trihonda? If so, well played, Donny, well played.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Lol. True story.

I know you keep thinking you lose the 88's action if you bet out on the flop... but I have to remind you that you should not even assume that's the gospel truth.

Especially if this is "average Joes." Sure, they'll say (after seeing the straight flush), "I would have folded to a bet on the flop..." but would they have? In my experience, very often, no!

In fact, if you bet out 2BB when there's already 5 BB in the pot (your scenario)... what's possilbe?

Assume you bet out 2BB on the flop, 7BB in the pot.
You said UTG looked liable to bet... well, then they're also likely to call. 9BB in the pot.
And then the 88 looks at it... pay 2 to get into a pot of 9? The average Joe will often say, "I have pot odds!" and throw in the two. And you'll reach the turn with 11 BB in the pot instead of 5 BB. Everything after gets amplified.

A solid, disciplined player wouldn't call with 88. But average Joes? There's no shortage of those who would! (And who will honestly believe they wouldn't have called if they were in that situation.)

In fact, in the real hand, you said five people checked around the flop. So there were two people that didn't fold until the turn...

It's entirely possible that one or two of them would have called a flop bet of 2BB before folding on the turn. Maybe not, but sometimes, yes. And the presence of those would be further enticement for the 88 to stick around, and more in the pot when the turn came around. Why on earth would someone do that? Lots of reasons. For example, having a gutshot straight draw... and then, after seeing too many people come to the turn, they think, "oh, so many people... someone has a flush." Or maybe they have a one-card flush draw...but again, when they don't make on the turn, and see all the competition, they think, "oh, they have a better draw, or maybe already have it." But average Joes often think about this after calling the small flop bot.

I have two final, general points to make here, regardless of everything else said in this thread:

1. We should not justify flop actions given what happened after. That's the amateur rationale used by every novice who thinks, "I'd have had that flush on the river." It's the exact same bad logic here, as there.

2. We should not spend too much time thinking about how to handle flopped straight flushes. It's not going to happen again. We shouldn't even spend too much time thinking about handling flopped monsters, in general. How to handle flopped two pair, an overpair, how to handle a flopped set... those are much more important. You'll have those so much more often that learning to earn 5% more, on average, will wildly out-class learning to make 100% more on flopped monsters.

 

[Trihonda]

Well, for starters, I'm never, never, never, never folding at any point with this hand.

Fold pre obv.

Cliffs:
- Fold pre

Sure, you may think you saw it for free. You'll probably win some money with the nuts too. But rarely is the question asked, how much did you lose?

Hmmmm.

 

[bergs]

Hmmmm.

I Mojo'd you.

 

[upNdown]

It's really not close at all. The flop check is just flat out wrong.

EDIT: Okay that sounds harsh. I don't mean to be curt, but this thread is a bit like when people who come to ask for help with their custom chips and decide to defend their crappy original design instead of looking for quality help when offered. If you're looking to avoid losing value you absolutely must bet these hands all the way, especially against 4 or 5 other opponents. This isn't a case where you can have a "read." Just bet your hand.

Let me ask this. I've been convinced that betting the flop is the right call in a cash game, because in the long run the hand with the big payoff will offset the hands where everybody folds. But is there an argument to be made that tournament strategy is different?

 

[jbutler]

Let me ask this. I've been convinced that betting the flop is the right call in a cash game, because in the long run the hand with the big payoff will offset the hands where everybody folds. But is there an argument to be made that tournament strategy is different?

No.

 

[upNdown]

No.

But sometimes tournament strategy is different than cash strategy, right?
But definitely not in this case?

 

[jbutler]

But sometimes tournament strategy is different than cash strategy, right?
But definitely not in this case?

That's true.

But still no.

 

[upNdown]

But still no.

Maybe sometimes maybe?

 

[jbutler]

Maybe sometimes maybe?

No.

 

[Trihonda]

About absolutes. I try to make good decisions, but I also mix up my play. For instance, I think limping with AA is -EV, but in certain situations and on rare occasions, I've limped with rockets to mix it up. If I were to post a strat thread where I limped with AA, I might defend that particular move in that hand as part of an overall strategy, even though it's generally always -EV. If you were to assume that's how I regularly play AA, and then flame me in the thread, you'd be underestimating me (which is ok too).

I think mixing up ones play is a strategy that works for me. And I'm a fairly profitable tournament player (surprisingly). I know some experts advise always opening (when you open) for the same X, regardless of your holdings. This disguises the strength of your hand/range. Playing by the book. This can be a good strategy. However, I choose to mix things up. I think this also works to disguise my holdings and range.

This thread has convinced me about betting the monsters earlier in the hand (though I typically do bet them early). I was only discussing here my thought process for the current table, my position, and the fact I chose to check the flop this time. It's not like I would do this every time, and now I'll likely do this less often. The main reason I posted was I perceived I left value on the table on the turn, and was curious about the line I took. From the advice given, it is clear this missed turn value was caused in part by checking the flop.

Thanks again to those who participated constructively without being condescending. This is a great community, with lots of knowledge and expertise. I'm still learning all the time. And Boy, when I figure out this poker thing, ya'all better look out!

 

[AlPresidente]

Let me ask this. I've been convinced that betting the flop is the right call in a cash game, because in the long run the hand with the big payoff will offset the hands where everybody folds. But is there an argument to be made that tournament strategy is different?

Unless bets are for a significant percentage of stacks, tournaments play much like cash. The table's deep stacked and the pot wasn't raise pre-flop. The fact this is a tourny doesn't affect the flop decision. With lots of opponents who have lots of ways of hitting the flop, this is a very clear flop bet.

If you flop a boat on a paired board, it's far harder for anyone to have a piece of it and there's a case for checking in the hope people catch up. That really isn't the case here.

 

[Nex]

Disclaimer: I'm not a big tourney player. And tourney definitely is much different from cash games, especially tourneys where the blinds rise fast.

in OP-described situation I'd definitely check-call on the flop if the bet is not too small, else check-minraise. It's quite late in the game, and even though the blinds are still ridiculously small, players sure are starting to grow tired and want to end the tourney - hence likely slightly more aggressive play. With this many players in the hand, someone is bound to make a bet, if only to try stealing the blinds. The bet might be weaksauce, but there should be one. Reraising to bigger amounts here would scare a semibluff away already in most of the cases.

On turn, place a decent bet (call if raised) or raise yourself. At this point I still would want the others to throw more chips into the pot, giving them the impression I have a good hand but maybe not the best (call instead of reraise = sign of slight insecurity)

On river, either shove (especially when you're in position) or make another decent bet, depending on what vibe you get from the other player(s) left in the hand. When you have to call your decision first, there's still an opportunity to get the 2nd best hand pay you some extra chips, instead of just folding in fright after your shove, where he might else have called a reasonably-sized bet. Really depends on the opponent.

 

[jbutler]

in OP-described situation I'd definitely check-call on the flop if the bet is not too small, else check-minraise. It's quite late in the game, and even though the blinds are still ridiculously small, players sure are starting to grow tired and want to end the tourney - hence likely slightly more aggressive play. With this many players in the hand, someone is bound to make a bet, if only to try stealing the blinds. The bet might be weaksauce, but there should be one.

OP described the field as nitty, ABC players. There's no reason to expect that one of them would bet with any hand that would not call or raise any bet Trihonda makes. No nitty, ABC player is going to bet with "weaksauce." In this case, we actually saw the results and, in fact, it was checked through despite one of the players holding a set, a hand which he obviously would have called with had Trihonda bet the flop.

It's always a bet on the flop in this spot for all the reasons explained in the numerous posts in this thread.

 

[AlPresidente]

Disclaimer: I'm not a big tourney player. And tourney definitely is much different from cash games, especially tourneys where the blinds rise fast.

in OP-described situation I'd definitely check-call on the flop if the bet is not too small, else check-minraise. It's quite late in the game, and even though the blinds are still ridiculously small, players sure are starting to grow tired and want to end the tourney - hence likely slightly more aggressive play. With this many players in the hand, someone is bound to make a bet, if only to try stealing the blinds. The bet might be weaksauce, but there should be one. Reraising to bigger amounts here would scare a semibluff away already in most of the cases.

On turn, place a decent bet (call if raised) or raise yourself. At this point I still would want the others to throw more chips into the pot, giving them the impression I have a good hand but maybe not the best (call instead of reraise = sign of slight insecurity)

On river, either shove (especially when you're in position) or make another decent bet, depending on what vibe you get from the other player(s) left in the hand. When you have to call your decision first, there's still an opportunity to get the 2nd best hand pay you some extra chips, instead of just folding in fright after your shove, where he might else have called a reasonably-sized bet. Really depends on the opponent.

This is a flop that people call bets on far more than bet out on in my experience when its multi-way. Made flushes are the only hand that will feel confident here and they aren't likely given all the clubs you can see. Not betting is a clear error imo.

 

[courage]

With this many players in the hand, someone is bound to make a bet, if only to try stealing the blinds.

Well yeah, except for the part where it got checked around.

 

[Chip Hunter]

Check every time. Check the turn as well. With that many players there is very likely to be a high club out there, and if you are luck enough for another club to come you will probably double up.

 

[courage]

Check every time. Check the turn as well. With that many players there is very likely to be a high club out there, and if you are luck enough for another club to come you will probably double up.