Have Chinese cards mold replica sets gone too far? (11 Viewers)

[upNdown]

If the “community” didn’t approve, they wouldn’t be here. There’s more than a few people that make this “community”, and despite the best efforts of some, you’ll never convince all that one way is right, and one is not.

Right, I guess I should have said that “not all of the community approves.” I think that when a new guy shows up knowing nothing, he should hear about this stuff, then hopefully put some thought into these issue and then make an informed decision for himself.
As Tina and others like her continue to steal designs, there will invariably be some people who will buy them, show them off here, catch shit for owning some other member’s design, and wish that somebody had tipped them off beforehand.
So I say yes, let’s keep the conversation alive. Those people who would like to suppress the conversation can continue to post their horse-beating memes if it makes them happy.

 

[bergs]

.
As Tina and others like her continue to steal designs, there will invariably be some people who will buy them, show them off here, catch shit for owning some other member’s design, and wish that somebody had tipped them off beforehand.

…and others are appreciative of the chance to own a chipset that is similar to the one they covet but can’t find/can’t afford.

 

[SeanGecko]

Popping back into this thread after six months:

View attachment 1156483

What a performance. Perfect miniseries. Glad they never made more. Imagine trying to top that. Just a silly idea.

 

[louBdub]

Again…

 

[Chippy18]

I think there is some beauty in the china clay/ceramics industry. It shows the tribute to the things we love, but can't afford or simply isn't available to the public. So to be honest a long as we value people and credit where credit is due, I see a place for the real thing and second best.

The beauty of nature is the balance it constantly seeks. As long as we respect those laws and don't create a vacuum all should be fine in the long run.

 

[chippitydoodah]

 

[SuckoutKing]

Just like an invasive species. Eventually it chokes out the original all together. Yes, they're cheaper but there are reasons for that.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Just like an invasive species. Eventually it chokes out the original all together. Yes, they're cheaper but there are reasons for that.

But in this case the originals are the Holy Grail compared to Dixie Cups. Tina's can only recreate "the look". They do not feel or sound like the originals. My set of Cards Mold New China Club "look" great. That's about it. And with poker chips it's all about the feel and sound. Anyone can have a reproduction of the Mona Lisa hanging on their wall and enjoy it knowing it's not the original. With chips you gotta take them out of the glass case and use them and that's where the difference lies. Tina's are a step up above dice chips but a giant leap below the originals.

 

[Annorax]

Controversial opinion: the THC mold being used for the Tina ceramic tributes is just a bit too far, they get the look too close to the originals & something needs to be different about the mold.

 

[SeanGecko]

RHC*

 

[SiouxperStack]

When is Tina making a THC mold? Let’s get that going.

 

[cpac54]

But in this case the originals are the Holy Grail compared to Dixie Cups. Tina's can only recreate "the look". They do not feel or sound like the originals. My set of Cards Mold New China Club "look" great. That's about it. And with poker chips it's all about the feel and sound. Anyone can have a reproduction of the Mona Lisa hanging on their wall and enjoy it knowing it's not the original. With chips you gotta take them out of the glass case and use them and that's where the difference lies. Tina's are a step up above dice chips but a giant leap below the originals.

Those Big Top knock offs look like hot garbage imo, esp the $5 and $25. Have always reminded me a bit of:

 

[BGinGA]

When is Tina making a THC mold? Let’s get that going.

THC hybrid mold already a reality.

 

[SiouxperStack]

THC hybrid mold already a reality.

Really? Are there pics circulating?

 

[photojake]

I asked Tina about the THC mold and she said they don’t have one. I have not seen one yet (from my searching) so as of right now…it looks like they only have the RHC mold (they actually have 2 versions of them…one with a 25mm/1inch circle for a label/sticker and one with a 27mm/1 1/16inch circle that is similar to the card mold and can be printed on…I was hoping they had a 27mm that is able to put a sticker/label but they don’t have those…yet).

 

[Eloe2000]

Can confirm as of right now. No THC mold. In addition to the original smooth plain mold hybrid Tina does have RHC and TRK (by and reserved for a member here) both with cross-hatched textured ring/mold. These appear to be a next generation level product learning from our input. Sounds like they have others in the pipeline but nothing else now. Hopefully something soon on a textured hybrid mold that isn’t ripped off.

 

[doctorchips]

As a relative newcomer to the world of chipping, I don't understand the hate for replicas. I get it if you have a set that's worth a ton of money that might be threatened by the availability and lower cost in general, but I think it's pretty hard gatekeeping to this hobby to just hate on people trying to get a design that they like for a relatively affordable price.

Not everyone can drop thousands of dollars on a custom set, or get real Paulson chips. There is a gap in the market that's being filled, that's it.

 

[upNdown]

As a relative newcomer to the world of chipping, I don't understand the hate for replicas. I get it if you have a set that's worth a ton of money that might be threatened by the availability and lower cost in general, but I think it's pretty hard gatekeeping to this hobby to just hate on people trying to get a design that they like for a relatively affordable price.

Not everyone can drop thousands of dollars on a custom set, or get real Paulson chips. There is a gap in the market that's being filled, that's it.

These Chinese replicas aren’t filling a gap. There have always been chips available at various price points. The reason these are so popular is because for the first time, people are free to steal designs and profit by selling them to people who are eager to get stolen designs for cheap.

It’s not about gatekeeping. It’s about respect for intellectual property.
Know what else was really popular in the past? Replica Dunes China clays. Know what the difference is? The people who produced those had the decency to secure the rights to the design.

 

[doctorchips]

These Chinese replicas aren’t filling a gap. There have always been chips available at various price points. The reason these are so popular is because for the first time, people are free to steal designs and profit by selling them to people who are eager to get stolen designs for cheap.

It’s not about gatekeeping. It’s about respect for intellectual property.
Know what else was really popular in the past? Replica Dunes China clays. Know what the difference is? The people who produced those had the decency to secure the rights to the design.

1. They absolutely are filling a gap in the market, otherwise there would be no demand for them... What you're saying doesn't make any sense (from someone new to the chipping hobby).

2. So where can I go to get licensed replica WSOP clay chips? Apache has Dunes and little else. Unless you go on here and dibs on sets, where else can you actually find replicas or designs?

3. Patents and trademarks are territorial and must be filed in each country where protection is sought. A U.S. patent or trademark does not afford protection in another country, so intellectual property doesn't extend to the entire internet. Deferring to IP is not a valid argument unless all parties are assumed to be within a territory where the intellectual property is recognized. Also, patents are extremely specific and whose to say that a design that is slightly altered, or colours are slightly changed aren't to be considered new designs completely?

Demanding respect in any global market where there isn't any meaningful way to enforce it is like yelling at a cloud in the sky. It's like being upset that cheap chinese knockoffs are being made of Versace bags, when it's clear to anyone who cares to buy the real thing you can immediately tell the difference.

It will get interesting if the knockoffs come close to the real Paulsons in feel and look though. I'd see large collectors getting increasingly upset if their expensive collections had authenticity come into doubt.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Demanding respect in any global market where there isn't any meaningful way to enforce it is like yelling at a cloud in the sky.

I know you're new, but thats his thing.

 

[upNdown]

So where can I go to get licensed replica WSOP clay chips?

This is the mentality I don’t understand. Is that the gap in the market?? If the WSOP hasn’t licensed any replicas, why do you think you should be able to buy them? Nobody is entitled to WSOP chips.

It will get interesting if the knockoffs come close to the real Paulsons in feel and look though. I'd see large collectors getting increasingly upset if their expensive collections had authenticity come into doubt.

They’ll never feel like Paulsons. But they’ll look exactly like them to the untrained eye. And honestly, that’s one of my biggest problems with this junk - I’m not worried about the large collectors; they’ll be fine. I’m worried about the newer guys, the casual guys, the untrained eye guys - they might buy these knockoffs thinking they’re real.

 

[doctorchips]

This is the mentality I don’t understand. Is that the gap in the market??

Yes, if a product is in demand (WSOP replicas for example - I want them, that's a demand) and you can't get them (no supply) then someone will fill the gap, right? That's why I asked where you recommend I go buy some. It is by definition a gap in the market when supply can't meet demand for ANY item.

If the WSOP hasn’t licensed any replicas, why do you think you should be able to buy them? Nobody is entitled to WSOP chips.

I mean, people aren't asking for free chips right. You realize they're paying good money to get them made? Do you take issue with all custom chips that resemble or have actual logos on them?

And you think they'll never feel like real Paulsons, but that's an assumption. Same thing was said about fake Rolexes years ago. There are fake Rolexes out there that are extremely hard to tell they are fake, even to a trained eye.

At some point, it all just becomes a gatekeeping exercise rather than inviting people into the community and directing them to retailers who can provide supply to meet the demand. I have absolutely no issue with someone creating a replica Mirage cash set and using it in their basement or home games, and I really don't see how anyone else would have an issue with it either. Yelling at clouds.

 

[MichaelBubly]

And you think they'll never feel like real Paulsons, but that's an assumption

Making chips out of plastics will never feel like compression molded clay. Period. If a Chinese manufacturer started making real, compression molded clay with a great feel, they would be very popular, but that world is very safe guarded for the protection of casinos. And most likely that will not happen.

For the same reason counterfeit watches are despised by collectors and one would never offer advice on how to buy a good counterfeit, chippers here are collectors. They don't like replicas. I don't think that makes them gatekeepers.

The line in poker chips much grayer than watches it seems. As why there is 48 pages of discussion on this thread with no agreeable conclusion.

 

[doctorchips]

Making chips out of plastics will never feel like compression molded clay. Period. If a Chinese manufacturer started making real, compression molded clay with a great feel, they would be very popular, but that world is very safe guarded for the protection of casinos. And most likely that will not happen.

That's fair.

I'm also a watch collector, I have absolutely no care at all about counterfeits. I buy a real watch from an authorized dealer.

Also, in both scenarios you are fully aware you're buying replicas (knockoffs). I still don't see the problem whatsoever with that.

Not liking replicas versus saying that someone wanting to buy a replica shouldn't be allowed at all to do so at all are different things, and IMO the latter is totally gatekeeping.

 

[Venturalvn]

Part of the hesitation is that PCF specifically has been spanked by gaming forces because "replicas" have successfully been passed off as the real deal. Nobody is trying to pass off a barrel of $500s to the casino, but people have certainly tried to pass off singular high denoms that were close enough to the real deal to get people in trouble.

Not to mention, as has been mentioned, that there's already enough bullshit on the market about "real casino clay" that some of the Tina stuff was already taking money from unsuspecting 3rd parties.

Adding in the SAME mold, regardless of those of us weirdos on PCF who can actually tell the difference, WILL result in people - willingly or unwillingly - paying top dollar for a scam.

It's already easy enough to go find people trying to sell a $100 dice chip for $80 because it's a "live casino chip" on FB marketplace. We're entering into a new, dangerous territory for our previously small hobbyist community.

 

[doctorchips]

Part of the hesitation is that PCF specifically has been spanked by gaming forces because "replicas" have successfully been passed off as the real deal. Nobody is trying to pass off a barrel of $500s to the casino, but people have certainly tried to pass off singular high denoms that were close enough to the real deal to get people in trouble.

Not to mention, as has been mentioned, that there's already enough bullshit on the market about "real casino clay" that some of the Tina stuff was already taking money from unsuspecting 3rd parties.

Adding in the SAME mold, regardless of those of us weirdos on PCF who can actually tell the difference, WILL result in people - willingly or unwillingly - paying top dollar for a scam.

It's already easy enough to go find people trying to sell a $100 dice chip for $80 because it's a "live casino chip" on FB marketplace. We're entering into a new, dangerous territory for our previously small hobbyist community.

I can see that for sure, but I think that's a separate issue.

People determined to buy or produce replicas or fakes to try and steal from the casinos should absolutely be punished to the full extent of whatever the law determines for the crime. It's the same thing as buying 'fake' dollar bills or 'movie money' that has no inherent value and is totally fine to buy and trade and trying to use that to buy something at a retail store.

Representing the chips as real in any form should absolutely be illegal, or if doing so in a private sale should be taken for what it is - scamming people. It exists in every industry. There is a doc about two guys who took hundreds of thousands from the Casinos in Vegas manufacturing replica chips in a garage and the chips were so close to the real ones that some are still estimated to be in circulation, so the problem exists with or without people being able to buy ceramics on them for their home use (which are also easily seen to be not real).

 

[upNdown]

Yes, if a product is in demand (WSOP replicas for example - I want them, that's a demand) and you can't get them (no supply) then someone will fill the gap, right? That's why I asked where you recommend I go buy some. It is by definition a gap in the market when supply can't meet demand for ANY item.

Yeah I just don’t understand why you think it’s okay. They own the WSOP name, logo, branding etc. If somebody else decides to print and sell chips with WSOP branding, that’s stealing.
And if you’re fine with that, that’s up to you. I speed on the highway. I know I’m breaking the law, I know I’m risking a ticket, I accept the possible consequences. But I’m not going to tell the world that speeding is fine just because I feel compelled to do it.
So play with your WSOP or mirage knockoffs in your basement, I really don’t care. But don’t come on here, a thread dedicated to hobbyists discussing our thoughts on knockoffs, and tell me I’m gatekeeping. That’s naive and petulant.

 

[JWJ]

That’s naive and petulant.

 

[doctorchips]

Yeah I just don’t understand why you think it’s okay. They own the WSOP name, logo, branding etc. If somebody else decides to print and sell chips with WSOP branding, that’s stealing.
And if you’re fine with that, that’s up to you. I speed on the highway. I know I’m breaking the law, I know I’m risking a ticket, I accept the possible consequences. But I’m not going to tell the world that speeding is fine just because I feel compelled to do it.
So play with your WSOP or mirage knockoffs in your basement, I really don’t care. But don’t come on here, a thread dedicated to hobbyists discussing our thoughts on knockoffs, and tell me I’m gatekeeping. That’s naive and petulant.

I was explaining how it's a gap in a market that is being filled.

I think things that are technically against laws are sometimes okay, we can agree on that (although we established that IP isn't globally enforceable). Arguably speeding on the highway and risking your physical well being and other people around you is way worse than getting a fake set of some poker chips. Jaywalking also is a terrible crime. I think it's interesting I'm being told to feel bad for the poor Casino executives and brands who surely won't financially recover from Tina taking their business. How bad were those Mario themed chips for you? Or, because they were original art was that ok? Or no?

But don’t come on here, a thread dedicated to hobbyists

This thread is about whether or not it's 'going too far'. Plenty of people here have been on both sides of this in this exact thread, and we just happen to disagree...

There is literally no alternative and the market is filling that gap. The idea that someone printing the same look on some chips that you would otherwise have to save for years and spend thousands of dollars to attain is that they're thieves is a joke and is gatekeeping. It's an attempt to say that because something is technically illegal where you live, it's universally somehow immoral or something. Is it better for hobbyists to have access to a wide variety of products (including lesser quality reproductions) or things that only have some stamp of approval on them from an official source? Maybe. That doesn't exist.

You know what a real Paulson is, and you can appreciate it as a real Paulson. Isn't that good enough? That's all I'm saying.

 

[upNdown]

You know what a real Paulson is, and you can appreciate it as a real Paulson. Isn't that good enough? That's all I'm saying.

Yeah it is. Believe me, these knockoffs aren’t keeping me up at night.
But as long as we’re DISCUSSING it here (and that was the point of the “hobbyist” sentence you misquoted - the discussion, which you’re a part of) I’m going to share my thoughts. And I’ve littered them all over this 48 page thread, so no need to repeat them all. But let me assure you, none of them are about gatekeeping.

We can disagree about the legality or morality of stealing designs (yes, the Mario characters are stolen too) and we clearly do. But that isn’t preventing you from buying anything or participating in the hobby in any way. So save your gatekeeping talk.