Help Me Create A Premium Deck of Poker Cards! (6 Viewers)

Looks like "get measuring your shelves" is back on the menu bois!!

Seriously though, 8-10usd probably won't even cover costs, so that's a huge no-no.

Somewhere between 14-20usd per setup with discounts for larger orders sounds like it could be the sweet spot in terms of covering costs, offering good value to the people who helped produce the deck (you guys) and maybe leaving me with a tiny little something for my vision, time and effort. Hitting the huge funding goal will be my #1 priority, as I can hopefully move into profit by selling any leftover stock, and as already pointed out, full retail price for a 2x deck piatnik setup with nice artwork will be a higher figure than what the GB orders are offered for, so there is that.

Everything still swirling around at the moment but hopefully will start to become clearer soon!

I will talk to a few more people and crack the calculator out!

Cheers
 
nickmate said:
It took me a few weeks flipping between which shade of green for my table felt—I don’t envy how difficult it would be to make a decision on each design element for a deck of cards. On top of that balancing the community feedback and suggestions.

The paradox of choice…
Click to expand...
Honestly, it comes down to
  • Do they shuffle well?
  • Is the index large enough to read from the far end of the table?
  • Are they bridge or poker size?
After that, it's all trivial.
 
The Modiano screwup was quite a while ago. If they commit to a full satisfaction guarantee I wouldn't totally rule them out. See if they can do acetate. Modiano acetates were very well regarded here and could command a premium price. For PVC, anything over $20/setup shipped would be a tough sell IMHO. I think your pricing would need to be fairly similar to Broken Arrow.
 
davefr said:
The Modiano screwup was quite a while ago. If they commit to a full satisfaction guarantee I wouldn't totally rule them out. See if they can do acetate. Modiano acetates were very well regarded here and could command a premium price. For PVC, anything over $20/setup shipped would be a tough sell IMHO.
Click to expand...
I would agree with you except their most recent offerings still have quality control issues and printing issues identical to the desjgn debacle. See below:

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/modiano-review.101986/
 
AHPC said:
Project status update:

Artwork: more or less ready to go, have some iconography etc. for the box, just need to drop it onto the final print template & decide on Poker vs Bridge size (Bridge would require adjustments of all the artwork which would take a while but no biggy really) at this stage I still haven't fully settled on either size and there seems to be a lot of Bridge noise around these parts ;)

Printers:

Trefl: Emailed me today saying they no longer make PVC cards, only paper
Dal Negro: Chased up, still waiting
Fournier: Chased up, still waiting
Queen/Marion Pro/Kuo Kau: Have sent me a fairly reasonable quote, but I need to confirm that is for their best casino PVC, as they have different stocks and finishes, so waiting to hear back from them (only interested in the best!)
Piatnik: Sent me a quote today. Very reasonable price per unit, but MOQ of 3k units puts total price up into the rafters. They also offered a more achievable price for 3k of a single deck, PVC Poker or Bridge, but I kinda had my heart set on a 2x deck setup...
Modiano: Sent me a fairly respectable quote, and a realistic MOQ, and seem helpful! Are these guys defo off the table? It's a shame they seem the best option of everyone I've contacted so far, based purely on their correspondence :confused

Once I settle on a printer and finalise the artwork this will most likely need to be a Kickstarter campaign or a pre-order/group buy affair due to the projected total price (I will upgrade to site vendor if we go the group buy route) - how many of you fine people would be interested in either of these options to help get this thing off the ground?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
Will Kuo Kau commit to use the same stock and printing process as Marion Pro? If they do and if their price is do-able with reasonable MOQ they may be your answer. I haven't heard this crowd say anything bad about Marion Pro. I really like them.
 
Poker Zombie said:
Honestly, it comes down to
  • Do they shuffle well?
  • Is the index large enough to read from the far end of the table?
  • Are they bridge or poker size?
After that, it's all trivial.
Click to expand...
While I agree that you can’t compromise on these baseline KPIs—I think design is incredibly important for the overall success of this project.

For this to work out beyond just the first order there needs to be appeal to the general public. I don’t think the goal here is to scrape by to the MOQ and call it a day. Looking at @AHPC website, differentiating their playing cards with design is the driver of their offering. If you make a run of the mill deck you compete on the same level as everyone else, ie. what is going to drive someone to buy these over Copags in their preferred index and card size?

The poker viewership landscape these days is all through streams and online content such as Hustler and WPT. They use these modern design cards to stand out and for brand recognition. I think there’s a gap and growing appeal for the modern/unique designs. Then you’re only competing against FS (RFPoker cards not really available to general public), instead of against literally every other card manufacturer under the sun.
 
nickmate said:
While I agree that you can’t compromise on these baseline KPIs—I think design is incredibly important for the overall success of this project.

For this to work out beyond just the first order there needs to be appeal to the general public. I don’t think the goal here is to scrape by to the MOQ and call it a day. Looking at @AHPC website, differentiating their playing cards with design is the driver of their offering. If you make a run of the mill deck you compete on the same level as everyone else, ie. what is going to drive someone to buy these over Copags in their preferred index and card size?

The poker viewership landscape these days is all through streams and online content such as Hustler and WPT. They use these modern design cards to stand out and for brand recognition. I think there’s a gap and growing appeal for the modern/unique designs. Then you’re only competing against FS (RFPoker cards not really available to general public), instead of against literally every other card manufacturer under the sun.
Click to expand...
It wasn't until now that I realized AHPC was a business. I agree with your take.

If a "normal" were to work out a design, serif vs sans serif is not a deal maker/breaker for hardly anyone. I say this because the J-Design fonts and the (older runs) of Broken Arrow use a terrible font, yet they are highly prized by the PCF community.
 
Personally, the number of setups that I would order depends if you'll be shipping a large quantity to the US, and I'd have to pay for reshipping from there, or if you'd deliver internationally worldwide. I'm sure our European friends would agree on this point too.
 
Bridge sized loyalists may make noise but, if it helps to inform your decision, check out the spreadsheet below from an ongoing group buy of cut cards. You will see that poker size resulted in 51 more orders preferring poker sized cut cards when you compare the number of poker versus bridge preferences. A decisive preference and indication of what size decks are being used the most IMO.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nFIxXnYEMf_Ito/edit?gid=91280248#gid=91280248
 
Last edited:
davefr said:
Will Kuo Kau commit to use the same stock and printing process as Marion Pro? If they do and if their price is do-able with reasonable MOQ they may be your answer. I haven't heard this crowd say anything bad about Marion Pro. I really like them.
Click to expand...

I don't like plan Bs, but if we manage to just fall short of the funds required for a full Piatnik print run (which we won't!), I still intend to get these decks printed on premium stock, so yes Kuo Kau are very much one possible backup option at this time.

nickmate said:
While I agree that you can’t compromise on these baseline KPIs—I think design is incredibly important for the overall success of this project.

For this to work out beyond just the first order there needs to be appeal to the general public. I don’t think the goal here is to scrape by to the MOQ and call it a day. Looking at @AHPC website, differentiating their playing cards with design is the driver of their offering. If you make a run of the mill deck you compete on the same level as everyone else, ie. what is going to drive someone to buy these over Copags in their preferred index and card size?

The poker viewership landscape these days is all through streams and online content such as Hustler and WPT. They use these modern design cards to stand out and for brand recognition. I think there’s a gap and growing appeal for the modern/unique designs. Then you’re only competing against FS (RFPoker cards not really available to general public), instead of against literally every other card manufacturer under the sun.
Click to expand...

@nickmate - I want to thank you for this post. I feel like it has pushed me a little bit to do better, or at least to seriously consider alternative angles to the design of these cards. I will have a little play with some different artwork while maintaining the general format that has been decided upon for this deck. What you say is all very relevant and important and you are correct, I don't want to just scrape by on a MOQ and call it a day, I am busy establishing and growing my brand and want to push it as far as it will go. The future of Poker and the way it is enjoyed by the masses is a line of thought that honestly didn't quite occur to me thus far (I always just focussed on creating great quality cards with a tunnel vision and possibly neglecting some other important stuff). Great input.

In my head I did want this deck to kinda be non-descript, generic enough to be used by anyone anywhere and to not polarise opinions, but equally, when someone paid attention to it, they would notice that all of the components are of the highest quality.

I still feel that way but might just experiment a little with the artwork before settling. If we can still nail all the right parameters *and* have some more interesting artwork, perhaps we will be onto a winner. We shall see.

I will return shortly with an update!

Thanks again everyone :)
 
AHPC said:
I don't like plan Bs, but if we manage to just fall short of the funds required for a full Piatnik print run (which we won't!), I still intend to get these decks printed on premium stock, so yes Kuo Kau are very much one possible backup option at this time.



@nickmate - I want to thank you for this post. I feel like it has pushed me a little bit to do better, or at least to seriously consider alternative angles to the design of these cards. I will have a little play with some different artwork while maintaining the general format that has been decided upon for this deck. What you say is all very relevant and important and you are correct, I don't want to just scrape by on a MOQ and call it a day, I am busy establishing and growing my brand and want to push it as far as it will go. The future of Poker and the way it is enjoyed by the masses is a line of thought that honestly didn't quite occur to me thus far (I always just focussed on creating great quality cards with a tunnel vision and possibly neglecting some other important stuff). Great input.

In my head I did want this deck to kinda be non-descript, generic enough to be used by anyone anywhere and to not polarise opinions, but equally, when someone paid attention to it, they would notice that all of the components are of the highest quality.

I still feel that way but might just experiment a little with the artwork before settling. If we can still nail all the right parameters *and* have some more interesting artwork, perhaps we will be onto a winner. We shall see.

I will return shortly with an update!

Thanks again everyone :)
Click to expand...
I hope you've thought seriously about distribution. I recently shipped a 8 oz package from US to the UK and it cost me $29 and that was the cheapest option. if your plans are to do business outside of the UK and Europe shipping costs can kill the deal.

A $15-20 setup can easily be double that shipped across the pond.
 
Just for reference, this is the classic style deck we currently have:

update prev.jpg
 
This is using one of my custom set of Courts. Still based on a standard pattern, but a little bit unique and fun. I also swopped the indices back to the other type (can be swopped back easy enough) - thoughts? Do we want something a little more fun and unique, or straight classic style? Cheers!

nu courts q1.jpg
 
Also - and I promise this is the last time I bring it up - I also cycled back to the 4col integration idea, this time a little corner marker inside the box. Thoughts again? Yay or nay? Cheers!

nu courts q2.jpg
 
I definitely prefer the custom courts. I still slightly prefer the serif fonts but not a deal breaker. I personally don't hate the 4 color corners, but I think they still feel gimmicky enough that it will turn off some purists and hurt the overall appeal of the cards, whereas I don't see them being a big enough feature that anyone would buy them for that reason alone.
 
davefr said:
I hope you've thought seriously about distribution. I recently shipped a 8 oz package from US to the UK and it cost me $29 and that was the cheapest option. if your plans are to do business outside of the UK and Europe shipping costs can kill the deal.

A $15-20 setup can easily be double that shipped across the pond.
Click to expand...
It probably makes the most sense for smaller order (under 20 setups) to have a large-ish quantity (a couple hundred setups) shipped to a single U.S. location for further reshipping, and for larger individual orders (20+) to be shipped directly.

I've helped reship some cards group buys (~100 setups of Dal Negro NTPs from Europe, ~120 decks of Statesman from Australia) to other U.S. members in the past. I didn't charge for my services, though I did round up reshipping costs to help cover costs (packing/printing supplies), and I think I ended up with a free setup out of the deal. I'd be willing to do something similar, depending on scope/scale and timeframe.
 
AHPC said:
This is using one of my custom set of Courts. Still based on a standard pattern, but a little bit unique and fun. I also swopped the indices back to the other type (can be swopped back easy enough) - thoughts? Do we want something a little more fun and unique, or straight classic style? Cheers!

View attachment 1489733
Click to expand...
I vote this one. Unique and fun. If I want Copag courts and pips I would buy Copag cards.

Edit: No on the corner color
 
JMC9389 said:
I vote this one. Unique and fun. If I want Copag courts and pips I would buy Copag cards.
Click to expand...
Agreed, I like the unique touches. I know a lot of people don't like Faded Spade but at least their court cards stand out (and I do like the mildly-art-deco meets cel-shaded-anime kinda vibe). These are understated but still more fun and less staid.

(Don't think the 4-color indicators would be obvious enough for folks who want 4-colors, while still probably distracting to folks who don't want 4-colors.)

Edit: Really do like the parts that poke out of the boxes. Maybe part of the Queen's crown and top of her head too?
 
The four color corners are a turn off for me.
I prefer the classic look but would buy either one.
 
I feel the 2 most important things are the base things card stock & how they handle/feel/play. Design/artwork is just a personal thing. Cards can look really nice with cool cutting edge artwork but if players start complaining about how they handle & feel after a few orbit (ala Faded Spades) then all the design work is for not. Cards that are hard to shuffle/deal, have no return snap & won't hold their shape are useless no matter how good they look. Cards with nice clean, time tested (boring, same ol') graphics will sell as long as the base product is good.

I think the more you switch back and forth trying to please everyone you will mindf' yourself in the long run.

Personally don't like the 4 color corners and index/font changes don't matter that much, but if they are nice Piatnik cards I'm gonna be in.
 
Is it pretty tradtional to have the suit within the court cards be right next to the corner suits? Seems somewhat redundant, though might also be good reinforcement:

1743780371730.png


What if the boxes are flipped, so that the appearance of the suits on the court cards are more spread out across the card?

1743780680295.png


Or combine the double suits into one:

1743780702877.png


(Obviously this last one needs more tweaking of the rest of the layout than this simple cut-and-paste mockup, but it could result in an increase of the size of the box and court art, which might be cool/different.)
 
Last edited:
Tonysquander said:
Bridge sized loyalists may make noise but, if it helps to inform your decision, check out the spreadsheet below from an ongoing group buy of cut cards. You will see that poker size resulted in 51 more orders preferring poker sized cut cards when you compare the number of poker versus bridge preferences. A decisive preference and indication of what size decks are being used the most IMO.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...nFIxXnYEMf_Ito/edit?gid=91280248#gid=91280248
Click to expand...
...or perhaps bridge card owners are more decerning, and are willing to pay more for better (potsie1) metal cut cards.

In which case, your data is a fallacy.
 
Poker Zombie said:
...or perhaps bridge card owners are more decerning, and are willing to pay more for better (potsie1) metal cut cards.

In which case, your data is a fallacy.
Click to expand...
Or maybe they are not, or maybe he has sold more poker size too (I own several from him), in which case your proposition based upon a complete lack of any data whatsoever is nothing more than baseless arguendo.
 

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