Hot Take: Small Blinds are Unnecessary in Cash Games (2 Viewers)

[Josh Kifer]

We all agree this is cash game specific though, yes? Tournaments are a different beast and I think the small blind is important there, given how short stacked things tend to get mid to late in tournaments.

Oh you don't open this can of worms and tell me to fuck off then change the goal posts with "were just talking cash games, rite guyz"

Your gonna die on this hill!

 

[MrCatPants]

Oh you don't open this can of worms and tell me to fuck off then change the goal posts with "were just talking cash games, rite guyz"

Your gonna die on this hill!

Read the title of the post.

Also I didn't tell you to f#&$ off. 2/3rds of poll respondents did. (That's alot)

 

[allforcharity]

Do you really want to see a flop five ways from worst possible position with 84o? If so, please DM me an invite to your game.

Yes? No?

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No! (I can learn!)

 

[Sal Bandini]

I think it's both, and I don't believe it's just a semantic difference.

Hold'em would be a ridiculously boring game without blinds, because there would be no incentive to play anything other than strong hands. Blinds give you that incentive in two ways: they guarantee that money is in the pot every hand (which motivates all players to enter the pot and win it), and they give players in EP a reason to play at a positional disadvantage (because they already have money in the pot).

You really think the blinds are an incentive? They may be in limit, but in no limit, with pots easily getting to 100, 200, 300 BB or more, that 1.5BB is meaningless. No one cares. I don't think they serve any purpose in cash games, other than to get in the way of the cards being pitched in a self-dealt game.

 

[MrCatPants]

You really think the blinds are an incentive? They may be in limit, but in no limit, with pots easily getting to 100, 200, 300 BB or more, that 1.5BB is meaningless. No one cares. i don't think they serve any purpose in cash games, other than to get in the way the cards being pitched in a self-dealt game.

Agreed. If you are fretting a half a big blind per orbit you are playing the wrong stakes, anyways.

 

[Sal Bandini]

My local game is very passive preflop for the most part. Some bingo playing but I'm talking about situations in which it's literally folded to me in the small blind and only the big blind left to act. I'm not raising 8/3 offsuit with two limped behind and BB left to act.

Your original post was limped pot to the SB. Now it's folded to the SB. Make up your mind. Of course you're not folding if it's folded to you.

 

[upNdown]

You really think the blinds are an incentive? They may be in limit, but in no limit, with pots easily getting to 100, 200, 300 BB or more, that 1.5BB is meaningless. No one cares. i don't think they serve any purpose in cash games, other than to get in the way the cards being pitched in a self-dealt game.

That probably depends a lot on how the game plays? Like if we're playing $1/2 and you open UTG to $7, yeah, it might make sense for me to flat in late position with that extra $3 in the pot (when it might also make sense to fold if that $3 wasn't there.) But if we're playing $1/2 and you open to $16, then no, that extra $3 in the pot probably doesn't mean much.

 

[TheBigTater]

Sounds like if you are adding in BBA, mandatory stradles, bomb pots, etc... to increase, drive action or make you game less nitty then you not playing high enough stakes for your players. Just raise your stakes and the blinds SB/BB will adjust accordingly to make them meanigfull enough for you players to care about.

 

[JMC9389]

Your original post was limped pot to the SB. Now it's folded to the SB. Make up your mind. Of course you're not folding if it's folded to you.

Fixed it, thanks.

 

[timinater]

Another positive for equal blinds - in pot limit games it makes pot calculations preflop easier.

3x the last bet plus the dead money. Round up the small blind for a preflop raise.

It never fails, and is also very handy on later streets too.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

You really think the blinds are an incentive? They may be in limit, but in no limit, with pots easily getting to 100, 200, 300 BB or more, that 1.5BB is meaningless. No one cares. I don't think they serve any purpose in cash games, other than to get in the way of the cards being pitched in a self-dealt game.

In a full ring game (8-9 handed), you're paying about 17-19bb every 100 hands in forced bets.

It might not matter much in a .25/.50 home game. But at mid-stakes and up where long term winrates are often 10-15bb/100 or less, it's the difference between being a solid winner and a massive loser.

 

[BGinGA]

You really think the blinds are an incentive? They may be in limit, but in no limit, with pots easily getting to 100, 200, 300 BB or more, that 1.5BB is meaningless. No one cares. I don't think they serve any purpose in cash games, other than to get in the way of the cards being pitched in a self-dealt game.

In a full ring game (8-9 handed), you're paying about 17-19bb every 100 hands in forced bets.

It might not matter much in a .25/.50 home game. But at mid-stakes and up where long term winrates are often 10-15bb/100 or less, it's the difference between being a solid winner and a massive loser.

Agree with both of you, and imo a better cash game solution (for either .50/1 or 1/1 as an example) is to eliminate both blinds and just have the first-to-act player post a table ante equal to twice the minimum bet size (posting $2 in this example).

Players must bet/call/raise or fold pre-flop; no checking allowed (same as if there were posted blinds, except that action starts with the first player after the button -- who posted the table ante).

Will speed up the game, minimize limping, and eliminate a chip denom at many stakes.

 

[macleanj]

I agree. Especially in micro stakes if the big blind is .25 might as well go 25/.25. No meed for nickel chips.

 

[bergs]

can we make votes public, I need to know who my homies are

2 blinds, or small big doesn't really matter much in cash, they are only there to encourage people to enter the pot anyways.

Why not just bring back the ante, make poker great again, everyone puts in $1 then deal the cards.

Because your $1 ante game at meatups is going to face a $30 preflop 3! every single hand.

 

[allforcharity]

I agree. Especially in micro stakes if the big blind is .25 might as well go 25/.25. No meed for nickel chips.

Believe it or not, there are many players who think 0.25 SB is a lot of money. Bringing in nickels is the only way to start educating the masses.

And there are some players who think $5/$10 NL as nanostakes.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Believe it or not, there are many players who think 0.25 SB is a lot of money. Bringing in nickels is the only way to start educating the masses.

And there are some players who think $5/$10 NL as nanostakes.

100%. 5c/10c is the perfect approachable stakes for my players. Yes, they'll call a quarter open much like a 10cent limp but saves them a few dollars every round.

 

[merkong]

We switched to an equal two blinds a while ago and haven't looked back. Simple is good.

I’m thinking about doing the same thing. Sell me.
Go.

 

[merkong]

To be clear, I wasn't arguing better or worse so much as which option would drive more action. Whether more action is better or worse is a matter of opinion.

And yeah, I think I was heavily implying that, but I don't really believe it. Unlike blinds, antes are dead money, so it doesn't really matter where they come from, and that second incentive (playing out of position to defend your blind bet) doesn't apply.

So I see where you're going, and you're right. It doesn't really matter where antes come from - they juice the pot, but they can't really be defended and thus don't drive action via defense.

I don’t often defend with bad hands. Why go in and flop bottom pair and be out of position?

 

[Hornet]

Necessary? No. But I like them.

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

So interesting take

The home games here run really weird

There is one blind
On the button

Maybe small blind should be the ante instead
Pump that pot PreFlop

 

[MrCatPants]

So interesting take

The home games here run really weird

There is one blind
On the button

Maybe small blind should be the ante instead
Pump that pot PreFlop

That's weird. Button ante, no blinds, go.

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

That's weird. Button ante, no blinds, go.

Yah it’s normally $5 button
I haven’t played on in ages I forget if it’s the small blind position goes first

The $5 is the big blind min bet amount
It’s the most weird thing ever but everyone of the locals does it

 

[moose]

I've played all of the above and $1 single blind. I'm fine with any of them.

Old Sahara ran with single $2 blinds in $2/4 limit holdem

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Old Sahara ran with single $2 blinds in $2/4 limit holdem

We played single dollar blind in Austin most of this weekend, and it had no effect on the action compared to .25/.50.

It did make for easier pot management by removing the fracs.

 

[MrCatPants]

Boo fracs! Especially mutli chip frakking in the big blind! Down with the big blind!

 

[timinater]

I’m thinking about doing the same thing. Sell me.
Go.

Try before you buy? I dunno. Like I said, simple is good.

 

[Beakertwang]

@MrCatPants is such an edge lord. Just creating controversy for controversy's sake.

 

[ekricket]

@MrCatPants is such an edge lord. Just creating controversy for controversy's sake.

No he’s not

 

[MrCatPants]

No he’s not

Not and an edge lord AND not creating controversy for controversy sake? Or only one out of two?

 

[ekricket]

Not and an edge lord AND not creating controversy for controversy sake? Or only one out of two?

Exactly, but the questioning kinda weakens your position