How do you explain to someone why they weren't invited to a game? (2 Viewers)

[3ars]

In our regular group of friends, most of us play poker regularly at home games and at casino tables. One of our friends has maybe played like 2 friendly cash games in his life, he barely knows that flushes beats straights.

Anyways, one day our group decides to setup a more serious home tournament instead of our usual casual cash games. Our beginner friend asks if he can join and we say sure. Of course, some time is wasted on his turns when we need to help with counting chips, and we need to remind him that action is on him etc.. but we expected that going in so it didn't really bother us. The thing that really bothered us were his completely ludicrous bet sizings. He would open raise 50bb UTG, get 1 person crazy enough to call him, and C bet 1bb on the flop. Everyone on the table would look at each other without saying anything, while he would think that he's doing nothing out of the ordinary. That same hand, he makes it to showdown and shows a Q4o and is surprised that he lost to some pair. He continues to play in a similar fashion throughout the tournament, until eventually he was the 1st one to be eliminated, as you would expect from a beginner, and the tournament carried on.

A month later, we decide to setup the same tournament again, but this time we decide not to invite the beginner friend. He's still welcome to join cash games, but for our monthly tournaments, we decided not to invite him. He was confused and a little offended that he wasn't invited and demanded an explanation. I tried explaining to him that it's more enjoyable for us if we all play against people of relatively similar skill, and complete beginners interrupt the flow of the game, but in his opinion, if we are so much better than him, then we should have no problem since we're gonna crush him anyways. He claims our egos are the reason we're not inviting him.

While fish are usually a welcome sight at the poker table, how do you explain to a friend why a certain minimum level of skill is required to participate in our tournaments? Or even still, are we wrong for not wanting him in our tournaments?

 

[Taghkanic]

I guess it depends on whether there is hope of him getting better with more experience.

If he isn’t going to learn, then I can see how his clumsy play would be annoying to the group, even if he stays as a big donator to the prize pool.

If he’s able to learn, and is keen to play, then I would not chase him away. You can’t have too many regulars.

 

[3ars]

I guess it depends on whether there is hope of him getting better with more experience.

If he isn’t going to learn, then I can see how his clumsy play would be annoying to the group, even if he stays as a big donator to the prize pool.

If he’s able to learn, and is keen to play, then I would not chase him away. You can’t have too many regulars.

that's exactly why we still invite him to the cash games, and we're all open to teaching him. But we like to reserve our monthly tournaments for higher level of play

 

[TheOffalo]

I agree, don't chase him away. Think about it this way, if you were at a casino playing a tournament, you'd welcome a player like this. Of course, in that case you wouldn't have a personal connection or care about that player.

If he's willing to learn, maybe after the tournament you can talk him through some of the hands where he made big mistakes. Plus I think he'd start picking up on things naturally, unless the money/game means nothing to him and he is there purely to socialize.

 

[Machine]

What if ....

He is right, and collectively you're being elitist.

The thing that really burns me, is this is coming from holdem players ... JFC climb down off your horse.

 

[FestiveKnight]

 

[3ars]

What if ....

He is right, and collectively you're being elitist.

The thing that really burns me, is this is coming from holdem players ... JFC climb down off your horse.

I understand where he's coming from, but the game feels completely different when you have 1 or more players like that on the table. I have no issues babysitting a friend, but sometimes I like not having to worry about anyone on the table.

 

[exodus]

I have experienced this before and it depends on the person. Our tournament buy-ins are considered small to this particular player so going all in and making huge raises was fun to him. He does know how to play correctly, but $40 is not enough for him to take the game seriously at all. For context, he can regularly wins/lose $2-3K in a day and not affect him. He would rebuy up to 6-7 times before registration closes and then still play crazy till he eventually busted. It was not fun to play against for the others even if the prize pool would inflate a ton from his money. We tried talking to him but he didn't really care and said that was just his playing style. It sounds like your friend still seems teachable seeing how he wants to play with your group. I'd continue to teach him how to play a less crazy style so that he doesn't have to be the first one to sit out. Anyone should be able to play any style they want as long as it doesn't hinder the enjoyment of others playing.

 

[varoadstter]

Honesty wins. I'd say something along the lines of it being obvious he isn't a regular tournament player and due to that he will not be competitive in that arena. Now, if he is becoming a real enthusiast and has some more experience with other tournaments, then maybe he figures things out and it's all good, then.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

it's more enjoyable for us if we all play against people of relatively similar skill, and complete beginners interrupt the flow of the game, but in his opinion, if we are so much better than him, then we should have no problem since we're gonna crush him anyways.

He's right, you shouldn't have a problem. He enjoys playing poker with his friends, sucks at it and doesnt mind. Its your game, do what you want, but the eye-rolling and not inviting is pretty silly if he's a good friend.

"Minimum skill level" is a pretty douchey thing to say about a poker tournament especially when you said he's only played a few times. @exodus brings up an important caveat: I may keep people away from the game if its too low-stakes/beginner for them, I want to protect my brand new players. But vice-versa, I can't ever imagine not inviting a friend of mine because he's not good enough, only the opposite.

Being a good friend, teaching him, and taking free money >>> Relatively similar skill level. Sorry if this comes off as curt but you asked for opinions. You're not wrong for inviting whoever you'd like to your home game, but when its a social monthly tournament that you'll all play together, and you're excluding a FRIEND and poker player because he's not good enough at poker? Very silly.

 

[3ars]

I guess you guys are right. I should try to teach him the basics if he's willing to learn. But I don't really know if he is willing. He likes the socializing aspect of the game, which we do too, but not during our higher buy in tournament nights. It's more about the game for us than the socializing during tournaments. I don't know if that makes us seem snobby.

 

[GreekRedEye]

Since you asked, yes, in my opinion you are wrong. I would apologize and invite him back.

Maybe he is socially a pain to be around and that is the real reason you all do not want him to play. But if it really is about skill, he will not get better if you do not let him make mistakes and learn. You were a new player once.

You may believe placing a high bet pre flop then limping along after is poor play. But who cares? It's legitimate play. He will learn to size his bets better.

 

[buffalojim]

Can you imagine if this forum required a certain level of maturity to join it, or certain level of chip knowledge? All you would hear is crickets.

Yeah, I think you guys are in the wrong. Unleas he's actually a problem, being disrespectful, throwing chips or cards, that kind of stuff, I'd say let him play.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I guess you guys are right. I should try to teach him the basics if he's willing to learn. But I don't really know if he is willing. He likes the socializing aspect of the game, which we do too, but not during our higher buy in tournament nights. It's more about the game for us than the socializing during tournaments. I don't know if that makes us seem snobby.

Yes, the whole idea that he's a friend but he's too low-brow and not good enough and just his presence and playstyle ruins the experience for the rest of you and your players is snobby. "Hey Frank, these are serious games, you're a friend but you're slowing us down. Try to keep up the pace, we're playing competitively" is different than "Hey Frank, you're betting in suboptimal ways so we don't want you playing with us. You're not playing correctly, your bets are crazy and you're getting bad odds so we don't want you gambling with us, your friends". You see that, right? Does it sound as ridiculous when I type it?

You don't want that friend over having a good time and giving you money because you already have the money, you just want an exclusive, tailored experience. And the thing bothering you all is bet sizing?? This just doesn't make sense. Is it frustrating that they're not solver approved? If you truly enjoy poker, adapt and overcome, duh.

Edit: Aight I got mad, sorry about the momentum, but this is the bullshit that scares people away from poker. People stuck online reading about playing optimally and now losing friendships and comradery to keep up appearances. I'ma head out.

 

[TheTrout]

I would personally never kick out a player because they were bad at poker but enjoyed playing. I wish my whole group were made up of those kinds of people!

If they have to be babysat because they can’t figure out when it’s their turn to act or always have to be reminded to put their blinds in that’s different, but if they are alert and play within the rules and just bet stupidly they are always welcome in my mind!

 

[3ars]

Guess it's time for some self-reflection and apologizing. Thanks for the advice

 

[Terrys394]

This friend of yours is ok on the cash game where you guys no doubt take his money but his bet sizing throws off your monthly tournament so your banning him from coming ? I think you guys are being a little heavy handed. New players have to learn poker somewhere. Usually private tournaments are a good place to do that.

 

[TheOffalo]

Guess it's time for some self-reflection and apologizing. Thanks for the advice

You're being way too mature for PCF...

 

[3ars]

This friend of yours is ok on the cash game where you guys no doubt take his money but his bet sizing throws off your monthly tournament so your banning him from coming ? I think you guys are being a little heavy handed. New players have to learn poker somewhere. Usually private tournaments are a good place to do that.

he doesnt show up to the cash games . he just wanted to come to the tournaments cuz it sounded more special. that's why i find it weird that he would come for the higher stakes stuff but not the lower ones.

Like I said, hes only played liked twice

 

[Jimulacrum]

If he's holding up the tournament, that is a problem—and a typical one for beginners—but it sounds like it's not really your concern.

The main concern is that he has virtually no skill at the game. It's clearly not an issue for him, and he's happy to pay for lessons, but you just don't like it for some reason. I found this sentence in the OP particularly bizarre:

While fish are usually a welcome sight at the poker table, how do you explain to a friend why a certain minimum level of skill is required to participate in our tournaments?

Why would this ever be a requirement? Like are people getting upset that his raise sizing is weird? That he played some garbage hands? Why? What is upsetting about that to anyone other than him?

It's even harder to understand why he'd be uninvited from tournaments (fixed buy-in, limited damage, relatively safe sandbox for a beginner—and he'll probably bust out quickly) but welcome to join cash games (where he may lose much more money and could be there all night).

If anything, you might consider the opposite, limiting him to tournaments until he's more experienced, to protect him from losing his ass at cash poker.

 

[RadicusScout]

he doesnt show up to the cash games . he just wanted to come to the tournaments cuz it sounded more special. that's why i find it weird that he would come for the higher stakes stuff but not the lower ones.

Like I said, hes only played liked twice

He obviously likes you guys. You know, maybe even considers you guys his friends. It's not about the poker, for him. It's about the friendship.

 

[3ars]

If he's holding up the tournament, that is a problem—and a typical one for beginners—but it sounds like it's not really your concern.

The main concern is that he has virtually no skill at the game. It's clearly not an issue for him, and he's happy to pay for lessons, but you just don't like it for some reason. I found this sentence in the OP particularly bizarre:


Why would this ever be a requirement? Like are people getting upset that his raise sizing is weird? That he played some garbage hands? Why? What is upsetting about that to anyone other than him?

It's even harder to understand why he'd be uninvited from tournaments (fixed buy-in, limited damage, relatively safe sandbox for a beginner—and he'll probably bust out quickly) but welcome to join cash games (where he may lose much more money and could be there all night).

If anything, you might consider the opposite, limiting him to tournaments until he's more experienced, to protect him from losing his ass at cash poker.

we might be doing it the other way around than the norm, but our sandbox is the cash games, and tournaments is higher stakes. We just like it that way.

 

[Jimulacrum]

we might be doing it the other way around than the norm, but our sandbox is the cash games, and tournaments is higher stakes. We just like it that way.

The "sandbox" remark was about a new player having a safe environment to try out poker at a fixed cost. Experienced players don't need a sandbox.

I really would like to know what you find so upsetting about the plays he's making. Is it somehow disruptive? What about it specifically causes a problem for anyone? What are the actual complaints?

 

[BGinGA]

"How do you explain to someone why they weren't invited to a game?"

Short answer is, I don't. I do not feel compelled or obligated in any way to explain or defend my reasoning or actions concerning the particulars surrounding a private event, including the invite list. It's called a 'private event' for a reason; and unless I choose to share details, it's simply none of your fucking business.

That said, in the OP's situation, if it's a friend or close associate with whom I have a good relationship, I would have reached out ahead of time and suggested ways for him to potentially improve (if he's actually interested in doing so) so that his future play will be less exploitable. And regardless, I'd offer an invite to what you consider a 'serious game' (slight :eyeroll: actually needed here).

Friends aren't asshats to friends. Well, they can sometimes be helpful asshats.

Imo, he was rightfully confused to be excluded, but was unjustifiably offended (until he heard your elitist reasons), and had zero right to initially demand anything.

Play on.

 

[MrCatPants]

I get this - I've had players whose style of play teed everyone else off. It can be the beginner stuff like you mentioned, or the hyper aggro raise with any two cards type of player.

I'd tell him that splashing around in cash games is all good and fun - but that some folks want to play technically sound tournaments and you'd be happy to spend time with him on bet sizing if he's open to it. It's like if you were hosting a scotch tasting and a person shows up with a keg and beer bong.

The words you used did make it sound elitist. But what you are talking about is an enjoyment issue for the other players and should be brought up. Just be careful when you talk to him that you make it more about playing in line with tournament play versus talking down to him or his skill, or feeling like you were trying to exclude him.

 

[3ars]

The "sandbox" remark was about a new player having a safe environment to try out poker at a fixed cost. Experienced players don't need a sandbox.

I really would like to know what you find so upsetting about the plays he's making. Is it somehow disruptive? What about it specifically causes a problem for anyone? What are the actual complaints?

It just feels like you're playing the lottery instead of poker when you're up against someone as unpredictable as that. I don't know if this is a weird thing to say for a poker player. There's unpredictable, and there's complete loose cannon. it just puts you in a weird spot where you're either taking money from a close friend who doesn't know any better, or you're put in a hard situation for no real reason. I personally would request a table change at the casino if I was faced with such an opponent, because it's too volatile to no ones benefit. that's the main issue I had

 

[3ars]

I get this - I've had players whose style of play teed everyone else off. It can be the beginner stuff like you mentioned, or the hyper aggro raise with any two cards type of player.

I'd tell him that splashing around in cash games is all good and fun - but that some folks want to play technically sound tournaments and you'd be happy to spend time with him on bet sizing if he's open to it. It's like if you were hosting a scotch tasting and a person shows up with a keg and beer bong.

The words you used did make it sound elitist. But what you are talking about is an enjoyment issue for the other players and should be brought up. Just be careful when you talk to him that you make it more about playing in line with tournament play versus talking down to him or his skill, or feeling like you were trying to exclude him.

I realize my phrasing may not have been the best, but the way you put it really expresses how we all felt that day

 

[BGinGA]

Yes, the whole idea that he's a friend but he's too low-brow and not good enough and just his presence and playstyle ruins the experience for the rest of you and your players is snobby. "Hey Frank, these are serious games, you're a friend but you're slowing us down. Try to keep up the pace, we're playing competitively" is different than "Hey Frank, you're betting in suboptimal ways so we don't want you playing with us. You're not playing correctly, your bets are crazy and you're getting bad odds so we don't want you gambling with us, your friends". You see that, right? Does it sound as ridiculous when I type it?

You don't want that friend over having a good time and giving you money because you already have the money, you just want an exclusive, tailored experience. And the thing bothering you all is bet sizing?? This just doesn't make sense. Is it frustrating that they're not solver approved? If you truly enjoy poker, adapt and overcome, duh.

Edit: Aight I got mad, sorry about the momentum, but this is the bullshit that scares people away from poker. People stuck online reading about playing optimally and now losing friendships and comradery to keep up appearances. I'ma head out.

And ^this^ from the guy who refers to his players as "apes" lol.

We once had a very smart but newish tournament player who would often raise UTG to 5,000 when blinds were 50/100. No amount of subsequent explaining or reasoning could sway his outlandish bet sizing, until players started only snapping him off with AA and KK and busting him out with regularity. Years later (and much improved), you still hear old-timers occasionally say things like, "Actions on you, Mr. 5K."

 

[legend672]

Try telling the truth.

 

[Jimulacrum]

It just feels like you're playing the lottery instead of poker when you're up against someone as unpredictable as that. I don't know if this is a weird thing to say for a poker player. There's unpredictable, and there's complete loose cannon. it just puts you in a weird spot where you're either taking money from a close friend who doesn't know any better, or you're put in a hard situation for no real reason. I personally would request a table change at the casino if I was faced with such an opponent, because it's too volatile to no ones benefit. that's the main issue I had

I get this - I've had players whose style of play teed everyone else off. It can be the beginner stuff like you mentioned, or the hyper aggro raise with any two cards type of player.

I'd tell him that splashing around in cash games is all good and fun - but that some folks want to play technically sound tournaments and you'd be happy to spend time with him on bet sizing if he's open to it. It's like if you were hosting a scotch tasting and a person shows up with a keg and beer bong.

The words you used did make it sound elitist. But what you are talking about is an enjoyment issue for the other players and should be brought up. Just be careful when you talk to him that you make it more about playing in line with tournament play versus talking down to him or his skill, or feeling like you were trying to exclude him.

I realize my phrasing may not have been the best, but the way you put it really expresses how we all felt that day

I don't think I will ever understand this mentality.

It comes off like what you want is for everyone to play "technically sound" in tournaments so that … what, exactly?

What is the point of filling a skill contest with people playing the same predictable, orthodox approach?

The irony is that you seem to believe that someone making crazy, low-skill plays makes the game harder or reduces it to "bingo," but it's quite the opposite.

The more heterogeneous the skill levels of the players, the more the game is reduced to the fall of the cards, i.e., to a "bingo" game governed by chance.