How do you explain to someone why they weren't invited to a game? (4 Viewers)

[NotRealNameNoSir]

And ^this^ from the guy who refers to his players as "apes" lol.

We once had a very smart but newish tournament player who would often raise UTG to 5,000 when blinds were 50/100. No amount of subsequent explaining or reasoning could sway his outlandish bet sizing, until players started only snapping him off with AA and KK and busting him out with regularity. Years later (and much improved), you still hear old-timers occasionally say things like, "Actions on you, Mr. 5K."

100%, welcome to the Jungle! I run an inclusive game, this was one of my players attempting a check-raise for the first time while the other ape managed to have the nuts.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Or even still, are we wrong for not wanting him in our tournaments?

Here's some advice you may find useful:

1) Create a set of rules and send them to everyone. This sets the expectation that it's a more serious game and not a shit show. If you want to see mine, send me a PM and I'll send you a link.

2) Every now and then I encounter people who express interest in joining our poker league. I always send them the rules and let them know that the competition is pretty solid, with several regulars in possession of 5 and 6 figure Hendon Mob profiles. I also tell them that the group is comprised of mostly middle-aged professional men and women like physicians, attorneys, college profs, etc... just to give them an idea of the environment. This often weeds out players looking for a casual game. If they respond with 'too many rules', or 'what's a Hendon Mob?' I know they're probably not a good fit.

As for your guy, if he's holding up the game or failing to follow etiquette you can probably nudge him in the right direction. People play poker for different reasons - if he's happy to participate knowing he's overmatched then what's the harm? Because your stuffy group wants only to play with people who 'respect their raises'? LOL.

 

[Moxie Mike]

The thing that really burns me, is this is coming from holdem players ...

 

[BigJackJones]

However you do it, say it like you are Sean Connery in The Rock.

 

[ekricket]

Anyone should be able to play any style they want as long as it doesn't hinder the enjoyment of others playing.

lol, Phil Helmuth comes to mind, along with a host of other professionals….

 

[3ars]

I don't think I will ever understand this mentality.

It comes off like what you want is for everyone to play "technically sound" in tournaments so that … what, exactly?

What is the point of filling a skill contest with people playing the same predictable, orthodox approach?

The irony is that you seem to believe that someone making crazy, low-skill plays makes the game harder or reduces it to "bingo," but it's quite the opposite.

The more heterogeneous the skill levels of the players, the more the game is reduced to the fall of the cards, i.e., to a "bingo" game governed by chance.

Maybe we just think differently, maybe I'm out of line with this way of thinking, but I know many poker players who all play very differently.

If I'm ever asked to bring +1s or +2s to a table, not everyone of those people are up for consideration. Different people get considered for different tables. I realize my bias is in play, but I try to use my best judgement.

Maybe this shouldn't apply to close friends is the moral I'm getting from this thread. But I still think not everyone is a good fit to play with everyone.

 

[BPTDirector]

Is he slowing the game down by not acting in turn and wasting blind round time? If so explain to him that tournaments are timed events and as such he needs to pay attention and act appropriately when it is his turn. As far as betting, just pick up on his antics then explain to him if he cares, why he is losing all the time. But fish keep the game alive, feed on them. Free money is good.

 

[3ars]

But fish keep the game alive, feed on them. Free money is good.

not when they're friends

 

[JustinInMN]

I think you have a mixed bag here.

He would open raise 50bb UTG, get 1 person crazy enough to call him, and C bet 1bb on the flop. Everyone on the table would look at each other without saying anything, while he would think that he's doing nothing out of the ordinary. That same hand, he makes it to showdown and shows a Q4o and is surprised that he lost to some pair.

There isn't anything here that I think requires correction. Everything here is within the rules. Unless he is particularly belligerent about the losing part, these are all matters of strategy.

Of course, some time is wasted on his turns when we need to help with counting chips, and we need to remind him that action is on him etc.. but we expected that going in so it didn't really bother us.

See this I think is a legitimate issue to correct. Tournaments need to played with pace and require more attention. It's good to understand where beginners are and afford some allowance, but at some point, he has to be responsible to act when he can act.

I tried explaining to him that it's more enjoyable for us if we all play against people of relatively similar skill, and complete beginners interrupt the flow of the game, but in his opinion, if we are so much better than him, then we should have no problem since we're gonna crush him anyways.

Your friend is kinda right on this one. I'll grant you time wasting and inattentiveness require correction, bet sizing isn't one of those things.

While fish are usually a welcome sight at the poker table, how do you explain to a friend why a certain minimum level of skill is required to participate in our tournaments? Or even still, are we wrong for not wanting him in our tournaments?

Whenever I have a player requiring correction, I never make it about me, but about duty of courtesy to everyone in the game. Time-wasting injures everyone. Bet sizing a playing certain hands, does not.

I would say so long as he commits to paying attention and acts promptly in turn, you should consider giving him another chance. He'll probably supply you profit for a while.

 

[glynn]

I'm glad you're reexamining this.

I'll add that unless everyone else is playing perfectly optimal poker, then at least some of you are making suboptimal plays. Some of those plays might even be worse than c-betting 1bb on the flop, just less obvious to your veteran eyes.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Maybe we just think differently, maybe I'm out of line with this way of thinking, but I know many poker players who all play very differently.

If I'm ever asked to bring +1s or +2s to a table, not everyone of those people are up for consideration. Different people get considered for different tables. I realize my bias is in play, but I try to use my best judgement.

Maybe this shouldn't apply to close friends is the moral I'm getting from this thread. But I still think not everyone is a good fit to play with everyone.

Sure, and I apply this same kind of judgment. I'm not opposed to excluding people over concerns about skill, but it's not because I want a game full of skilled players. I'd only really do that to protect someone I think would be taken advantage of (e.g., someone in cognitive decline), or to avoid bringing a novice player to a circus game where I don't think he'd understand the complex variants.

What you're talking about in tournaments is something very different—mainly other players' annoyance at seeing an unskilled player make wacky, unpredictable plays, and having to adjust their usually "technically sound" play for it.

 

[Taghkanic]

I dunno, I tend to think the OP has a valid concern, and some of the shaming of him here for having that concern seems a bit over the top.

I don’t think it is “snobbery” or “elitism” to say that in a group where the players take the game seriously, it can be annoying to have someone playing almost randomly.

Clearly, if the host only cared about money then the concern would not exist.

When someone is doing stuff like raising 50BB pre then 1BB on the flop, that the player is probably also doing non-betting stuff that slows the game down or otherwise disrupts its flow.

Of course, whatever, he is free to play poorly and lose, and that’s great for everyone else’s bottom line. Fine.

But anyone paying even minimal attention to what is going on would start to notice that his plays are very different from the norm. And it doesn't sound like he’s playing bizarrely as a strategy... Hust that he has no clue and ***MORE IMPORTANTLY*** is not bothering to pick up anything from everyone else’s behavior or reactions.

So I would bet that this guy is also doing stuff like not noticing when the action is on him, asking what the chip values are, talking about multiway hands in progress, getting up from the table a lot, or many of the other things that inattentive players do.

Per above, if I were the host, I would just talk to the friend and say, hey listen, this group has been playing together a long time, and they take the game seriously... They probably aren't going to want you back if you don’t do a little bit of reading/YouTube studying to master the fundamentals not only of strategy but poker rules and etiquette. Even offer to sit down and do some tabletop work so he gets it.

 

[joeyshin]

Playing with others of similar skill does make make one an elitist but also makes the game more enjoyable.

I have friend that’s pretty good in golf. He won’t play with people who slow down the game. Same with a snobby tennis player I know. He was ranked in the state and he’s a nice guy, but he won’t just play with anybody because it’s not enjoyable when his opponents cannot return any of his serves.

I play with poker newbs since I play with a lot of my church friends, but most have some foundational concept of the game. Those that know nothing, I offer to teach them, but not at the expense of our game. It frustrates others when people slow everything down and robs the enjoyment. Tell your friend he isn’t invited to the tourney until he ups his poker knowledge and foundation, but he can come late and play cash.

 

[Taghkanic]

... An example. I play in a 1/3 game with a retired lady who is a big donor. She’s played for decades, seemingly without learning a thing. She also takes forever to act, often has to be prompted to act, seems to struggle with cutting out chips, etc.

She takes her losses with good humor, and people of course don’t mind taking pots from her, but honestly to me it is a little uncomfortable to watch sometimes. Recently, she won the game’s high hand jackpot worth about 400BB, and was delighted. But I found it awkward to then watch her just donk off almost all of it in the space of several hours, and leave dejected.

Anyway, one of my regs proposed bringing her to my game, which is higher stakes. I told the reg that he could if he really wanted, but honestly I think it would be an unhappy experience for her, and a bad fit for the group. She’d get crushed, first of all. And some of the players would likely get annoyed by her slow and unthinking play, and eventually start to get on her about ut, Yeah, we like money, but we also like to have a tough game, where we are all battling and learning to get better, and the action moves along briskly.

Then we can take those skills to other games and take *other people’s* money.

I just don’t think it is “elitist” not to want to watch someone get destroyed constantly, or to expect basic attentiveness. It’s basic compassion and manners.

 

[BGinGA]

Having a "wild card player" in your game will eventually make everybody a better player, so long as they have the ability and willingness to learn and adjust to varying circumstances.

 

[3ars]

Sure, and I apply this same kind of judgment. I'm not opposed to excluding people over concerns about skill, but it's not because I want a game full of skilled players. I'd only really do that to protect someone I think would be taken advantage of (e.g., someone in cognitive decline), or to avoid bringing a novice player to a circus game where I don't think he'd understand the complex variants.

What you're talking about in tournaments is something very different—mainly other players' annoyance at seeing an unskilled player make wacky, unpredictable plays, and having to adjust their usually "technically sound" play for it.

It just changes the mood when everyone is on the same page except for one person. We can all play wacky, we do during our low buy in cash games. but is it so bad to want to emulate a high level "high stakes" tournament amongst ourselves? Does it make us snobby for wanting that? maybe. Should I have approached it differently with my friend? Absolutely, and definitely will in the future. But that doesn't change the fact that at the time of the tournament where he wasn't invited, he would not have contributed to the mood we were trying to set. Time and place is what I'm trying to say

 

[Jimulacrum]

is it so bad to want to emulate a high level "high stakes" tournament amongst ourselves? Does it make us snobby for wanting that?

I'm not sure if "snobby" quite captures it.

What is high level about a game full of stuffy players who get upset when someone raises "too much" or plays the "wrong" hand?

 

[3ars]

I'm not sure if "snobby" quite captures it.

What is high level about a game full of stuffy players who get upset when someone raises "too much" or plays the "wrong" hand?

I gave that play as an example of the type of player he is. Just making the point that he has no idea what he is doing. Nothing wrong with not knowing how to play. I have expressed multiple times I am willing to teach him how to play. But not during our special events. Time effort and planning go into making those events happen for us. What's so stuffy about that?

 

[Jimulacrum]

I gave that play as an example of the type of player he is. Just making the point that he has no idea what he is doing. Nothing wrong with not knowing how to play. I have expressed multiple times I am willing to teach him how to play. But not during our special events. Time effort and planning go into making those events happen for us. What's so stuffy about that?

What's stuffy is that you're letting it ruin your game experience.

I could get it if he's holding up the game, doing inappropriate things (e.g., splashing the pot, peeking at discards), or whatever. If that's the concern, totally justified. But that's not what you've said.

What he's actually doing that upsets you is making plays that aren't very good. It seems like you're upset not because it's disruptive in any real way, but because you want to see everyone play in a predictable, orthodox way, and it feels icky when he doesn't.

It's stuffy on the level of getting upset that someone used a salad fork to eat a steak.

 

[BPTDirector]

not when they're friends

I mentioned helping him if he cares, but if not enjoy spending his money.

 

[3ars]

What's stuffy is that you're letting it ruin your game experience.

I could get it if he's holding up the game, doing inappropriate things (e.g., splashing the pot, peeking at discards), or whatever. If that's the concern, totally justified. But that's not what you've said.

What he's actually doing that upsets you is making plays that aren't very good. It seems like you're upset not because it's disruptive in any real way, but because you want to see everyone play in a predictable, orthodox way, and it feels icky when he doesn't.

It's stuffy on the level of getting upset that someone used a salad fork to eat a steak.

idk i think im just not conveying it properly. the issue isn't the lack of skill, but rather the lack of even the slightest poker knowledge. I am now painfully aware that skill was not the right word to use in my original post. Maybe experience is a better word to use. I mean what would you say if you had a table of 8 experienced players (not necessarily pro or even good, just experienced) when the 9th player has his iphone on the table with the ranked list of poker hands open so he can make sure he understands what he has. I'll gladly teach him the ropes some other time, just not this time.

 

[Jimulacrum]

idk i think im just not conveying it properly. the issue isn't the lack of skill, but rather the lack of even the slightest poker knowledge. I am now painfully aware that skill was not the right word to use in my original post. Maybe experience is a better word to use. I mean what would you say if you had a table of 8 experienced players (not necessarily pro or even good, just experienced) when the 9th player has his iphone on the table with the ranked list of poker hands open so he can make sure he understands what he has. I'll gladly teach him the ropes some other time, just not this time.

Is this player actually holding up the game in any material way, or is his lack of skill/knowledge the only problem?

 

[Natskule]

I totally understand where OP is coming from. Not every game is for every person. Some games are way more social, some are more serious and focused on the game. It only takes one person to throw off the enjoyment of the game for everyone. I play with a lot of folks that I wouldn't invite to a more serious game that I'm planning for next week. They are fun to play with in the not so serious weekly game, but I don't want them to attend this planned game, they frankly don't care about poker as much as the rest of us do, they look at it as an entertainment expense, like gambling and expect to lose, poker is more just the price paid for entertainment and not a game that they are trying to get better at.

I'm glad that the pool of players I know can support both and that we can occasionally have a more serious game at a bit higher stakes, where the hands flow quicker, people know when there is time to step away from the table, when it's their turn and want to play instead of throwing chips in and hoping to get lucky. Folks that are challenging to play against and gets the mind game going. Sometimes it's nice to play against other poker players instead of some folks that get together to drink and toss some cards around.

 

[RocAFella1]

 

[3ars]

Is this player actually holding up the game in any material way, or is his lack of skill/knowledge the only problem?

He holds up the game quite a bit, while I tolerate it because he is a really close friend, I cannot say the same about the other players on the table. As the usual host for cash games and tournaments, if I feel like the majority is having an issue with that person, I tend to invite them less. The main issue here was that he was a close friend of mine. Again, I made the mistake of using his skill level to convey his experience level, when both are unrelated. The real issue is the lack of experience that other people simply don't have the patience for.

 

[Jimulacrum]

He holds up the game quite a bit, while I tolerate it because he is a really close friend, I cannot say the same about the other players on the table. As the usual host for cash games and tournaments, if I feel like the majority is having an issue with that person, I tend to invite them less. The main issue here was that he was a close friend of mine. Again, I made the mistake of using his skill level to convey his experience level, when both are unrelated. The real issue is the lack of experience that other people simply don't have the patience for.

If holding up the game is really the issue, then fine, but your message now feels very mixed.

 

[3ars]

I totally understand where OP is coming from. Not every game is for every person. Some games are way more social, some are more serious and focused on the game. It only takes one person to throw off the enjoyment of the game for everyone. I play with a lot of folks that I wouldn't invite to a more serious game that I'm planning for next week. They are fun to play with in the not so serious weekly game, but I don't want them to attend this planned game, they frankly don't care about poker as much as the rest of us do, they look at it as an entertainment expense, like gambling and expect to lose, poker is more just the price paid for entertainment and not a game that they are trying to get better at.

I'm glad that the pool of players I know can support both and that we can occasionally have a more serious game at a bit higher stakes, where the hands flow quicker, people know when there is time to step away from the table, when it's their turn and want to play instead of throwing chips in and hoping to get lucky. Folks that are challenging to play against and gets the mind game going. Sometimes it's nice to play against other poker players instead of some folks that get together to drink and toss some cards around.

this exactly

 

[BPTDirector]

Well, he is indeed holding the game hostage, so just lay it on the line.

 

[3ars]

If holding up the game is really the issue, then fine, but your message now feels very mixed.

I poorly worded my premise. the holding up was not an issue for ME as an individual at the table because he is a close friend. the bad plays is a symptom of the lack of experience which is the parent issue

 

[Taghkanic]

Having a "wild card player" in your game will eventually make everybody a better player, so long as they have the ability and willingness to learn and adjust to varying circumstances.

Sure, but there’s unconventional and then there’s totally clueless. The adjustments to be made to the latter can be learned in 1-2 sessions. I wouldn’t make a clueless player who never learns the game a reg… it’s really not that interesting a challenge.