How many shuffles? (3 Viewers)

[Machine]

That’s also known as boxing, and was mentioned previously as being not very effective.
Yet all the dealers do it between riffles.

Boxing is typically done once in three shuffles, it helps discourage or prevent shuffle tracking which is more of a blackjack thing. Counters would follow 'hi' count sections of the deck and sum the counts then follow where it would end up in the shoe.

 

[Goosefraba]

I was shuffling the typical slap and bridge but watched a few videos on how casino dealers shuffle. Wash, riffle, riffle, box, riffle, cut. I liked how you scoop the washed cards with one card to straighten them out on their side with cards facing the players but when riffling the deck you go nearly flat lifting the corners together and continue as mentioned. I felt it was enough for variation on players hands but when it gets down to a heads up and I'm the only one dealing it’s about race to shuffle before the hands over even with two decks

 

[Machine]

Wash

in a casino? yeah right

 

[joeyshin]

Sometimes riffle riffle box riffle riffle box riffle

But most of the time I’m not paying attention so I’ll riffle like 20 times

 

[Goosefraba]

in a casino? yeah right

hah

 

[allforcharity]

Does it not take something ridiculous like 2 minutes of continuous washing to randomize a deck, plus all the space needed to do it properly?

 

[upNdown]

Does it not take something ridiculous like 2 minutes of continuous washing to randomize a deck, plus all the space needed to do it properly?

Yup

 

[allforcharity]

Yup

Thanks. This solidifies my reasons not to do it.

 

[upNdown]

Thanks. This solidifies my reasons not to do it.

Right. I’ve definitely read that there’s a huge difference between a wash and an effective wash. If you spread those cards out and push them around for a while (meaning 30+ seconds) you’re accomplishing something. If not, not.

 

[allforcharity]

Right. I’ve definitely read that there’s a huge difference between a wash and an effective wash. If you spread those cards out and push them around for a while (meaning 30+ seconds) you’re accomplishing something. If not, not.

I suppose I must clarify that I don't do it within a game. If I'm prepping a brand new deck if cards I wash for at least a minute, then do my riffle strip riffle riffle strip riffle cut. Then repeat the shuffle before the first deal.

 

[upNdown]

I suppose I must clarify that I don't do it within a game. If I'm prepping a brand new deck if cards I wash for at least a minute, then do my riffle strip riffle riffle strip riffle cut. Then repeat the shuffle before the first deal.

Personally I rarely even do that, just because I feel like a clumsy goofball doing a big wash like that. I’ll ruffle ruffle strip riffle like 4-5 times with a new deck. I don’t know if 20 shuffles equals a wash. But I hate washing.

 

[Machine]

Does it not take something ridiculous like 2 minutes of continuous washing to randomize a deck, plus all the space needed to do it properly?

Perhaps if you’re washing the deck from being spaded, but if you’re mid game reordering the cards sub 30 sec is helpful, you wouldn’t rely on this alone to randomize the deck, you’re still going to riffle rifle box rifle

 

[Taghkanic]

It's important to wash the cards properly before the riffle, riffle, box, riffle, cut.

How would you describe a proper wash technique?

When I watch some people (including even dealers) do “washes,” I can’t believe what I’m seeing.

Mushing the cards around a bit and then pushing them back together barely does anything a lot of the time. The layers of cards are staying on top of each other in much the same order as before, with very little new interleaving.

 

[allforcharity]

How would you describe a proper wash technique?

When I watch some people (including even dealers) do “washes,” I can’t believe what I’m seeing.

Mushing the cards around a bit and then pushing them back together barely does anything a lot of the time. The layers of cards are staying on top of each other in much the same order as before, with very little new interleaving.

Exactly. Whenever I see it done it is an obvious joke.

 

[drdr]

Does it not take something ridiculous like 2 minutes of continuous washing to randomize a deck, plus all the space needed to do it properly?

I recall an old paper that tested randomisation of different shuffles. One moderate wash, two riffles and a cut was sufficient to reach random. Maybe I can hunt it down.
My apes manage this in under a minute and usually when another deck is in play so no time lost.

 

[Machine]

I recall an old paper that tested randomisation of different shuffles. One moderate wash, two riffles and a cut was sufficient to reach random. Maybe I can hunt it down.
My apes manage this in under a minute and usually when another deck is in play so no time lost.

Given a spaded deck this is Not sufficient, if you follow the new members link there is a post that talks about it, I’ve also seen a few good YouTube’s on it.

Proper wash should incorporate a figure 8, but no one would rely on washing alone

 

[kingdeuceoff]

Friendly game - two riffles and a cut, especially if the hand in action ends preflop. Gotta keep the game moving.

 

[drdr]

I wrote a paper in grad school that aimed to solve this problem using Monte Carlo simulations and rising sequences. If you're interested in it, I can send it to you. It's in PDF format. But here's a screen shot of the most relevant plots from the project. The blue line represents the distribution of rising sequences from a completely randomized deck, and the tan histograms are the distributions for the number of rising sequences found in decks that were shuffled n times.


View attachment 856423

This is cool, I want! I'm wondering what is deemed as one shuffle... so should just read to find out.

 

[drdr]

Given a spaded deck this is Not sufficient, if you follow the new members link there is a post that talks about it, I’ve also seen a few good YouTube’s on it.

Proper wash should incorporate a figure 8, but no one would rely on washing alone

Can define spaded deck? I'm not finding a definition that is making sense for the conversation. You mean new and sorted in suits? That would be a one-off scenario.

 

[Machine]

Can define spaded deck? I'm not finding a definition that is making sense for the conversation. You mean new and sorted in suits? That would be a one-off scenario.

Spading a deck is the process of setting it up, typically with the Ace of spaces on top signifying it is setup in order, specifically doesn't denote if it is new or not.

If a deck is spaded, then yes sorted by suits in a given order.

 

[drdr]

Spading a deck is the process of setting it up, typically with the Ace of spaces on top signifying it is setup in order, specifically doesn't denote if it is new or not.

If a deck is spaded, then yes sorted by suits in a given order.

Thanks. Okay, in that situation I'm giving an extra effort to over shuffling for the first hand. But after that I'm not going to that much effort. I'm mostly interested in the shuffling needs on non-spaded deck.

 

[Machine]

Thanks. Okay, in that situation I'm giving an extra effort to over shuffling for the first hand. But after that I'm not going to that much effort. I'm mostly interested in the shuffling needs on non-spaded deck.

When I deal, (not in a self-dealt game) I will bring in the folds to the muck and I will mix it up as I am dealing and waiting on players to make action. At the end of the hand just below the board, I have 3 cards (burns) a stub and the muck. I flip over the board with the winning hand and then wash it all together, nothing super crazy, just enough to reorder all the cards, as I ball the cards up I'll take cards off the bottom and top and slide them to the bottom of the deck, then straighten them, next up riffle riffle box riffle cut and pitch...

Most of the time I will have a shuffletech so I don't actually hand shuffle, and I'll hit 7 on it so we get more randomized decks

 

[RainmanTrail]

When I deal, (not in a self-dealt game) I will bring in the folds to the muck and I will mix it up as I am dealing and waiting on players to make action. At the end of the hand just below the board, I have 3 cards (burns) a stub and the muck. I flip over the board with the winning hand and then wash it all together, nothing super crazy, just enough to reorder all the cards, as I ball the cards up I'll take cards off the bottom and top and slide them to the bottom of the deck, then straighten them, next up riffle riffle box riffle cut and pitch...

Most of the time I will have a shuffletech so I don't actually hand shuffle, and I'll hit 7 on it so we get more randomized decks

Please don't do this.

Signed,
- Every poker player on the planet

 

[Taghkanic]

Re.: Washing:

One video I watched said the deck should be cut in half and spread in two rows at the start of the wash. The dealer then started pushing the two rows together before swirling them around. Never saw that row thing before.

All in all I remain skeptical of the value of washes as performed by most dealers. Might help in theory but I tend to think extra ruffles and boxes would do more in the same time.

Re.: Shuffling in general:

In the end every possible arrangement of the deck is a valid order. That even includes the “perfect” order of a brand new deck. In theory that should occur at random once in a zillion shuffles.

The point of shuffling I think is to ensure that no player can predict any specific cards or mix of suits based on the prior hand or having seen where cards were at the start of the shuffle; and likewise to give players confidence that the deal is not setting anyone up and no extra action is being manufactured.

Meanwhile, the action of dealing in sequence, twice around the table, is in itself a sort of shuffle.

As such I don’t expect every shuffle to be absolutely perfect, though that would be nice... I want it to be sufficient to protect the integrity of the game.

 

[Machine]

Re.: Washing:

One video I watched said the deck should be cut in half and spread in two rows at the start of the wash. The dealer then started pushing the two rows together before swirling them around. Never saw that row thing before.

It also makes it easier to spread the cards and validate the deck has all the cards.

Its early and I hadn't had my coffee yet, not the smoothest operator at the time also not sure why the quality is so low

 

[springbox]

I don't see much of a reason to wash. In the 30 seconds you'd spend washing you can probably get in 6 or 7 riffles. Rather than a wash followed by 3 riffles why not 10 riffles.

 

[drdr]

I don't see much of a reason to wash. In the 30 seconds you'd spend washing you can probably get in 6 or 7 riffles. Rather than a wash followed by 3 riffles why not 10 riffles.

I suspect combined methods are better. Top cards in a riffle tend to stay at top. A wash will greatly reduce chance anyone knows what cards are at top.

 

[allforcharity]

I suspect combined methods are better. Top cards in a riffle tend to stay at top. A wash will greatly reduce chance anyone knows what cards are at top.

This is why you have to strip as well. And have someone cut before dealing.

 

[drdr]

This is why you have to strip as well. And have someone cut before dealing.

For better or worse, my standard has been wash, riffle, riffle, strip, cut. I've often thought to put the strip between the riffles.

 

[warma]

I’ve always liked this video- blackjack dealing school, gives pointers and precise instructions: