How to raise the stakes? (2 Viewers)

[DrStrange]

@joseywales I host a game with a similar structure, $0.25/$0.50 with $5 to $20 buy ins, once a month. I have the structure to ensure that the game be social, approachable for people of modest means and to protect the worst of the players. I also play in a $20 max game once a week hosted by someone else.

It is true that shallow stacks means much of the game is played preflop and on the flop. It is also true that the skill level differential is a little less important. But the bottom line is we have fun playing. The game(s) are stable - I have sixty sessions of this a year and have had for over a decade.

The worst of the players lose one to two thousand a year playing in this $20 max type of game. They might lose another couple of grand playing in the monthly $1/$1 game. They don't ever come to the $1/$2 game. Raising the buy-in to create deeper stacks might make for more

So what would be the point of changing your game? If the players enjoy it and it is healthy, do not mess with success. Want to try something different - host a special game and see how it goes.

I am thinking this thread could benefit from some Pron. Here is a picture from a $0.25/$0.50 game earlier this year. ( chips are from the Outpost casino in California. While there aren't many fives in play, there are 200 Outpost quarters on the table - yum yum )

Last hand of the night fireworks

• DrStrange
• Mar 16, 2016

 

[detroitdad]

OK. So this could be about the skill level of players then. In my game, a guy with pockets AAs better go at least $2.50 if they don't want to see the flop. I'd go $3 or more and still probably get one caller. So $2.50 to win the .75 in blinds. I know, I know, but it's how it works at this game. If you let guys at this table flop, you'll eat your AAs to 222. Our game never folds the 2s. I will say our largest gambler has move, to it's calmed down a bit. But guys don't give up their hands easily in this game. It's just a different kind of fun I guess.

Try not to get defensive. Just saying that part of the reason why players don't let their hands go is that they don't have much behind them. If I only have 15 bucks in my stack it would be pretty hard to get me off of any type of hand. In my experience, if the stacks were deeper that "might" change some things.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Obv solution is obv. Drop buy-ins to $20 max and drop stakes to 10c/25c. Game will loosen up considerably, re-buys will increase, actual money in play will increase, and you get to buy cool new 10c chips. Not to mention the advantages of buy-ins in multiples of $20. Redbirds are overrated.

Reducing the blinds to 10c/20c would be a big improvement, opening up for more post flop play.

I say lower the blinds even further. I play in a weekly .05/.10 game. I am in the game for $160-$200 some weeks. Most people start off at $20. Keeping the blinds low and the buy ins at 200bb makes for a deep game where people re-buy like crazy. Most don't think it's any big deal to whip out another $20, and before you know it, the game is playing bigger and more loose/aggressive than a tight .25/.50 $50 max.

This is the key to playing for more money, getting your players used to playing with deeper stacks, and getting them used to rebuying frequently.

BTW - you're in the greater boston area, go to one of the MA/NH games. We play .25/.50, $125 or half of biggest stack max buy in. You'll see what deep stack micro stakes is really all about.

 

[joseywales]

Try not to get defensive. Just saying that part of the reason why players don't let their hands go is that they don't have much behind them. If I only have 15 bucks in my stack it would be pretty hard to get me off of any type of hand. In my experience, if the stacks were deeper that "might" change some things.

Thanks detroitdad. I wasn't being defensive when I wrote that, just my prior post. I have no issue with criticism, just offer me something constructive with it, which you are doing here! I realize that the skill level in our game isn't tight. For most, the motto at my table is, "any two cards can win". I received an A+ in statistics, but it doesn't help much if I can't guess whether the guy next to me went all-in with 8-2 and I'm about to get my brains beat in. As you know, this game is not about gambling, but I have too many gamblers at my table (4) for any of us to strictly adhere to probability tables. It's not like playing online, but it's loose. Some have never played poker before and have learned over the years. Some of these guys play in a dealer's choice game and eat Mississippi Mud for breakfast, but we've tamed them a bit by pushing back. I'll say this, most times, post flop, I'd rather have the 8-2...

I think 100 times the BB is a decent structure, but we limp their with 3 buy-ins. Now that I'm looking to spend decent money on chips and maybe even custom chips, I'd prefer to see the entire $50 on the table from the start! Currently, guys can rebuy, but they have to bust out down to $1 first. I'm trying to imagine what some of these guys would do with large stacks from the git go. I know how they react when they are winning fairly big, just not sure if they would react the same or not. remember, even the true poker players, if they want to succeed, have to adjust their games at this table, or they will lose for sure.

You're saying you wouldn't get off a hand, because you only have $15. But if you can't rebuy, until you bust, does that change your opinion? I ask because I don't think that's why these guys don't fold. To get a guaranteed pre-flop fold, $3 would be the bet. Still, someone will think yo're bluffing and call you anyway. I've said it out loud at my game, what will it take to get everyone to fold? You had better have been hitting hands most of the night, so they believe you're not bluffing, otherwise you're going all the way to the river. And we don't really have that much bluffing going on. Also, I think it's been at least 2 or 3 games since I've seen an all-in. Any insight into this mess we have going on?

Dr Strange, agreed. I don't want to ruin the game. I am looking for a second set of players as well and host a second game each month. Also, I've thought about a special game as you suggest with the current group. We'll see what happens.

I'll keep tracking this post for input. Thanks

 

[upNdown]

Wh

Thanks detroitdad. I wasn't being defensive when I wrote that, just my prior post. I have no issue with criticism, just offer me something constructive with it, which you are doing here! I realize that the skill level in our game isn't tight. For most, the motto at my table is, "any two cards can win". I received an A+ in statistics, but it doesn't help much if I can't guess whether the guy next to me went all-in with 8-2 and I'm about to get my brains beat in. As you know, this game is not about gambling, but I have too many gamblers at my table (4) for any of us to strictly adhere to probability tables. It's not like playing online, but it's loose. Some have never played poker before and have learned over the years. Some of these guys play in a dealer's choice game and eat Mississippi Mud for breakfast, but we've tamed them a bit by pushing back. I'll say this, most times, post flop, I'd rather have the 8-2...

I think 100 times the BB is a decent structure, but we limp their with 3 buy-ins. Now that I'm looking to spend decent money on chips and maybe even custom chips, I'd prefer to see the entire $50 on the table from the start! Currently, guys can rebuy, but they have to bust out down to $1 first. I'm trying to imagine what some of these guys would do with large stacks from the git go. I know how they react when they are winning fairly big, just not sure if they would react the same or not. remember, even the true poker players, if they want to succeed, have to adjust their games at this table, or they will lose for sure.

You're saying you wouldn't get off a hand, because you only have $15. But if you can't rebuy, until you bust, does that change your opinion? I ask because I don't think that's why these guys don't fold. To get a guaranteed pre-flop fold, $3 would be the bet. Still, someone will think yo're bluffing and call you anyway. I've said it out loud at my game, what will it take to get everyone to fold? You had better have been hitting hands most of the night, so they believe you're not bluffing, otherwise you're going all the way to the river. And we don't really have that much bluffing going on. Also, I think it's been at least 2 or 3 games since I've seen an all-in. Any insight into this mess we have going on?

Dr Strange, agreed. I don't want to ruin the game. I am looking for a second set of players as well and host a second game each month. Also, I've thought about a special game as you suggest with the current group. We'll see what happens.

I'll keep tracking this post for input. Thanks

Why does somebody have to be down to a dollar to rebuy? I'm not sure how to give constructive criticism about your buyin structure; it's just weird. Too many rules.

 

[detroitdad]

You're saying you wouldn't get off a hand, because you only have $15. But if you can't rebuy, until you bust, does that change your opinion?

If I only have 15 bucks in my stack. Then the simple answer is no. If I'm playing a hand I'm mostly likely putting it all in. Not rebuying until I go busto would be mute. I would be basically be all in on any hand I was willing to see the flop with if I was playing that short. Apparently these games wouldn't be in my wheel house to play. If a guy loses 10 bucks on the first hand on a 100 dollar buy in and wants to reload back up to 100 I reach over into my case and pull out two fives. I'm a firm believer that you should be able to add on in a cash game whenever you want (as long as your not in a hand).

As stated. If this game works for your group, great. We have loose gamblers at our game. They either win a shit ton of money or lose a shit ton of money.

 

[upNdown]

If I only have 15 bucks in my stack. Then the simple answer is no. If I'm playing a hand I'm mostly likely putting it all in. Not rebuying until I go busto would be mute. I would be basically be all in on any hand I was willing to see the flop with if I was playing that short.

Well maybe not, if you knew you could only buy in for $15 more, and then only one more rebuy of $20.
At least, I wouldn't. With those restrictions, I'd play pretty nitty.

 

[detroitdad]

Well maybe not, if you knew you could only buy in for $15 more, and then only one more rebuy of $20.
At least, I wouldn't. With those restrictions, I'd play pretty nitty.

nitty? lol. I couldn't. However, I most likely wouldn't play in a cash game with all of those restrictions.

 

[detroitdad]

Well maybe not, if you knew you could only buy in for $15 more, and then only one more rebuy of $20.
At least, I wouldn't. With those restrictions, I'd play pretty nitty.

FWIW, I'm not saying I would play every hand all in. I'm saying that if I was committing to the hand then I would be willing to commit my entire stack of 15 bucks pre flop if necessary. Especially as loose as these players seem.

 

[joseywales]

OK. So keep it coming. This structure was passed on to me, when I joined this group, oh maybe 5 years ago. Ironically, most of the original members drive to my house, rather than host, which is FINE by me. Honestly, I never thought too much about the structure, until joining this site. Yes, it works for us, but that's not say I might suggest a change. Maybe the first guy didn't have enough chips to run large stacks. I have no idea.

I do know that a $5 chip being tossed in is a gauntlet in this game. When the one guy hosted the game, he used the same pizza coupon for 3 years, because it had no expiration date. The new manager finally put a stop to that. But you see what I'm dealing with. All great guys though. Now, some of these guys play in larger stakes games and maybe I can bring the rest along for the ride. Some are borderline retired, so we'll let the chips fall where they may, or I'll start a second game. I need some new friends anyway!

So keeping close to the dollars I'm dealing with, what are you guys suggesting? For this group, or another group?

 

[upNdown]

I play a regular game with similar stakes.
We typically have about 5 players. Sometimes 6 or 7, sometimes 4.
We play .25/.50 and the standard buyin is $20, but there's no minimum or maximum.
Somebody's usually rebuying within the first 15 minutes. And as the night rolls on, rebuys tend to get more like $30 or $40 or $50.
Most of the guys who play, come prepared to drop at least $100.

And for my group, it works great. Now, if some jerk came along and made an initial buyin of $100 and tried to push everybody around, I'm sure things would change. We'd either all buy in for more, or we'd make some rules about buy-in limits. But that hasn't happened yet.

 

[Adam Crowley]

My suggestion is try and change the buyin for one game. Ask all your players at the next game how they feel about having the buying range from $15 - $30.

If they enjoy this then ask them how they feel with $15 - $50 and so on and so forth.

I don't think dropping the blinds will work in your game because it seems none of your players have a grasp of blinds in relation to stack size, and would probably still bet the same amount.

While going all in on the flop is exciting there is a massive part of the game your players are missing out on, and that firing a massive bet on the river and owning your opponent, either by bluffing or getting him to call it doesn't matter the feeling is just as sweet.

 

[joseywales]

I think half of us understand pot odds. I know I don't play them as tight as I should, but have actually tightened up over the past few months and it's helped. Our group is evolving, maybe I give it a nudge.

 

[Mental Nomad]

I think half of us understand pot odds. I know I don't play them as tight as I should, but have actually tightened up over the past few months and it's helped.

If the betting is very passive, then the callers don't need to understand pot odds; multiple players in means they're getting odds up front. After the pot grows, if the aggressors are not sizing their bets aggressively, the callers are still getting odds. If everyone fail to bet properly, you make the passive callers correct, which perpetuates the problem.

Until the bettors are paying attention to denying pot odds - that is, making sure to bet hard enough so that a caller can't be getting odds - then the callers don't need to learn to pay attention to them, either.

In my game, a guy with pockets AAs better go at least $2.50 if they don't want to see the flop. I'd go $3 or more and still probably get one caller. So $2.50 to win the .75 in blinds. I know, I know, but it's how it works at this game.

Why would you want to steal the blinds with AA? That's not a hand for avoiding the flop; you raise AA pre to make the opponents overpay to play, not to knock them out.

You still need to learn to play your aces on the flop, and thinking they're unbeatable is a big mistake, but you certainly shouldn't be looking to avoid the flop when you have aces!

I know I don't play them as tight as I should, but have actually tightened up over the past few months and it's helped.

The thing that helps the loose players in my game tighten up their standards is the frequently-reinforced knowledge that someone else is going to make it expensive for them to chase if they don't. They're still happy to limp to the flop from time to time, and we always celebrate that rare family pot, but if it's happening too often, then it's not what I'd call good poker.

Maybe they need to be led by example?

I suppose part of the hesitation to bet harder may come from your restrictive buy-in policy; in my game, with a $.25 big blind, I have no qualms about betting off $15 or $20 of my $25 buy-in on a hand, because I know I can put another $20 on the table right away. If I knew I'd be stuck playing a $10 stack, having to nit-up or go all-in, it might make me hesitate to bet properly when I had the $25 in the first place.

 

[XBobdog]

Have you thought about mixing in some other games besides Hold'em? PLO or even Crazy Pineapple will help creat bigger pots and people going bust, thus creating more re-buys. If you are only getting 1 re-buy per night this should change that.

You wouldn't need to change your blinds or buyin structure for it. Those games will play bigger naturally.

You don't need to play them all night either. Go slow, play 1 round every hour or so to "mix it up" you could say.

This is basically exactly what I was thinking.

There are lot's of games out there that make you really want to see flops.

 

[GoStumpy]

I have a bi-weekly game with .25/.50 blinds and $50max $20min buyin.

Most buy in for max but some buy in for $20/$25/$30 and that's fine...

I might up the top to $60 just to do even 3-20's for ease of buyin, though.

I wanted higher stakes, so I end up going to the casino now I might try hosting a .50/$1 game in the near future and see who is in for it though!

 

[Mojo1312]

How many seats do you fill, and what is the average number of re-buys during the game?

 

[GoStumpy]

I usually get 8-10, and I would guess an average of around 6 rebuys.. I get about $700 on the table at the end of a decent night

 

[joseywales]

The buy-in structure we use was designed to level the playing field. When this game started, 5 years ago, there were avid players, novices, such as myself and folks who'd never shuffled a deck before. Aside from varying skill levels, there was/is also varying tolerance for lo$$. Even with the rules, we lost a couple players. They just weren't progressing as the rest of the crowd and weren't having fun.

We play for 4.5-5 hours, under fairly desirable conditions (comfy chairs). With the current rules, players do bust out ($50) but unless there's only less than an hour left, they usually buy back in. So, perhaps their tolerance for loss is higher than in the beginning. I know all of them would tolerate more loss, but not sure about monthly or biweekly.

For those who don't like rules, check out some of the rules (some of which I did create for my house). My goals was to make sure that weaker players would be affected by ancillary issues. When folks start losing, little things can irritate them and affect not only their ability to focus, but to have fun. And fun is by far our primary goal. If I want to win money, I'd rather take it from strangers. Like most activities, I find I mostly compete with myself. Winning their chips isn't nearly as important to me as playing well and as you know the latter doesn't grantee the former.

- No spouses. STOP - women are welcome. Everyone assumes spouse means wife, it does not. We just don't want couples bickering at the table. It's sort of a joke rule, but if a spouse did join, they at least know what we don't want. They can bitch to us about each other, but not at each other.
- Leave the English Leather at home. I have zero tolerance for fragrance. It could also distract other players.
- Wrist or.arm jewelry - not on my speed cloth. Just recently, my niece tore a small snag hole in my brother's cloth with a bangle bracelet. It happens. Honestly, some watches make me nervous, but I can't tell someone not to wear a watch. I just hope they don't win a big pot and have to sweep chips with their arms! NOTE: If i get a custom cloth, the watches might come off.
- You can leave the game at any time, but your chips stay until you blind out. Never happened and this group is still very friendly, so probably not an issue.
- I'm thinking about adding a health rule. The angry jew came to our last game sick. I've been sick for almost two weeks now. PITA.

I'm considering raising the stakes, to raise the level of play. What I don't want is to lose any players because of it. Our does have lulls at times and I'm wondering if higher stakes will keep everyone juiced.

 

[detroitdad]

Cash game and their chips stay on the table? That doesn't seem right. One of the reasons I prefer cash is being able to cash out and leave when I want.

Sounds like you guys should be playing tourneys instead of cash

 

[joseywales]

Cash game and their chips stay on the table? That doesn't seem right. One of the reasons I prefer cash is being able to cash out and leave when I want.

Sounds like you guys should be playing tourneys instead of cash

Again, it was designed to be social. What we didn't want is someone cleaning up early and walking out. Remember this game started out as social first, poker a distant second. That said, it has evolved and I'll evaluate where we are and where we are headed. If I can't find what I want, I still host, but I'll also look to start a second game with a new set of poker players.

 

[XBobdog]

I laughed when I read the "health rule". We had a player show up with a "cold" a few years ago and knocked 4-5 guys out for days with the flu. He still gets a hard time for that, but now we have hand sanitizer dispenser and what we call "the Avian Flu Guideline". Don't bring your third world viruses to poker!!

 

[Rhodeman77]

Cash game and their chips stay on the table? That doesn't seem right. One of the reasons I prefer cash is being able to cash out and leave when I want.

Sounds like you guys should be playing tourneys instead of cash

Very strange rules indeed for a cash game!

Like Bill said, you may want to try a tournament.

But if everyone is okay with them, then it doesn't matter what outsiders think. But they could hurt your chances of recruiting new players.

Again, it was designed to be social. What we didn't want is someone cleaning up early and walking out. Remember this game started out as social first, poker a distant second. That said, it has evolved and I'll evaluate where we are and where we are headed. If I can't find what I want, I still host, but I'll also look to start a second game with a new set of poker players.

If that happens, the game and players normally take care of that themselves. If a player is know to "hit and run" they won't get action from the other players in the future, or invited back if it is an regular occurrence . Also, that is why people bring rebuys with them.

 

[upNdown]

@detroitdad mentioned exactly what I was thinking. You should try switching to a tournament format and see how you like it.
You could allow for rebuys, and you could tailor a blind schedule that ramps up at the end, to keep most people playing into the last hour.
Plenty of good resources here to help you set it up.

 

[joseywales]

Yes. A tournament is in our future. I'm thinking either Christmas week or perhaps Super Bowl. One of my members has hosted a March madness tournament, but it was different players and we knew it could be a $150 day. It was dealer's choice though and I lost my shirt, until the last hand. Everyone throws in money and we play 7 cards blind. Just shear luck that I evened up and got the heck out there! It was fun though. Still, I prefer holdem.

 

[detroitdad]

The buy-in structure we use was designed to level the playing field. When this game started, 5 years ago, there were avid players, novices, such as myself and folks who'd never shuffled a deck before. Aside from varying skill levels, there was/is also varying tolerance for lo$$. Even with the rules, we lost a couple players. They just weren't progressing as the rest of the crowd and weren't having fun.

Its inevitable that you'll lose players. We all do. Life gets busy, finances change, social circles change, ect.....

We play for 4.5-5 hours, under fairly desirable conditions (comfy chairs). With the current rules, players do bust out ($50) but unless there's only less than an hour left, they usually buy back in. So, perhaps their tolerance for loss is higher than in the beginning. I know all of them would tolerate more loss, but not sure about monthly or biweekly.

We used to have 40-60 max buy in. In the last year or so it has evolved into a 100 max buy in. We usually still have the same amount of money on the table at the end of the night. On most nights we actually have less rebuys now than we did when it was a 60 dollar buy in. The main difference is now were playing more "poker" than we are gambling. I like it. With your buy in/cash out rules your game feels a lot like "gambling".

For those who don't like rules, check out some of the rules (some of which I did create for my house). My goals was to make sure that weaker players would be affected by ancillary issues. When folks start losing, little things can irritate them and affect not only their ability to focus, but to have fun. And fun is by far our primary goal. If I want to win money, I'd rather take it from strangers. Like most activities, I find I mostly compete with myself. Winning their chips isn't nearly as important to me as playing well and as you know the latter doesn't grantee the former.

I don't know, I love crushing my friends and taking all their money. Odds are it'll go back to them soon enough anyways

- No spouses. STOP - women are welcome. Everyone assumes spouse means wife, it does not. We just don't want couples bickering at the table. It's sort of a joke rule, but if a spouse did join, they at least know what we don't want. They can bitch to us about each other, but not at each other.

This is the only rule I kind of get. That is only kind of. I occasionally play with several couples. Doesn't bother me at all.

- Leave the English Leather at home. I have zero tolerance for fragrance. It could also distract other players.

This need to be a rule? You have guys that bathe in musk? lol

- Wrist or.arm jewelry - not on my speed cloth. Just recently, my niece tore a small snag hole in my brother's cloth with a bangle bracelet. It happens. Honestly, some watches make me nervous, but I can't tell someone not to wear a watch. I just hope they don't win a big pot and have to sweep chips with their arms! NOTE: If i get a custom cloth, the watches might come off.

I have speed cloth. This has never, ever, never been a concern. How are your guys racking pots?

- You can leave the game at any time, but your chips stay until you blind out. Never happened and this group is still very friendly, so probably not an issue.

I probably couldn't over come your other rules. If I could. This right here would keep me out of your game.

- I'm thinking about adding a health rule. The angry jew came to our last game sick. I've been sick for almost two weeks now. PITA.

I'm considering raising the stakes, to raise the level of play. What I don't want is to lose any players because of it. Our does have lulls at times and I'm wondering if higher stakes will keep everyone juiced.

I responded from my phone earlier hence the short reply. As it was stated, I think you will have a very hard time recruiting new players to your game. Especially if the new players have any idea on how a cash game works. Being forced to leave your cash in play if you leave early is the most unacceptable rule you have created. I've only been playing for 10-12 years or so. Only once has a player hit and run. It wasn't a reg. I just didn't invite them back. All of my regulars practice poker cashing out etiquette. If your leaving early, just let us know and nobody will care. One of my guys only plays a couple of times a year. Whenever he does he always tells me he will only be there for 2-3 hours. I tell him thanks, and can't wait to see him. If he takes all the money on the table when he leaves then I guess everyone else should have played better

If your rules are working for you great. As players drift away you will have a hard time bringing in any new players unless you change a few things.

 

[ssanel54]

You should definitely listen to some of the advice from DD. It sounds like you have a number of unconventional rules in place, but I question how often they need to be enforced. If you have been playing with the same group of guys for 5 years, how likely is someone to Hit N Run? Maybe something like an orbits notice or 20-30 minute announce before leaving would make more sense than you can leave, but your chips stay on the table... It may be a more appealing format to the social player who knows he can only attend for a portion of the evening.

Also, loosen up on the rebuy requirements. If someone gets coolered and wants to add on to their stack, they shouldn't be forced to surrender their remaining chips.

It sounds to me like many of these rules were put in place a number of years ago by people who were new to the game (or at least new to home game structure). Many of the actions/behaviors that you are trying to safeguard against may be non-existant in the format that you have now. If you want to attract more players then you probably should shift to a more common set of rules. Let your players, and your player's actions influence the game flow with new players.

 

[joseywales]

I laughed when I read the "health rule". We had a player show up with a "cold" a few years ago and knocked 4-5 guys out for days with the flu. He still gets a hard time for that, but now we have hand sanitizer dispenser and what we call "the Avian Flu Guideline". Don't bring your third world viruses to poker!!

I like it! I have kids and have been able to dodge a cold for 3 years running, then he starts hacking on my Copags!.

 

[tripleflatbarrel]

I ran into the same issue. Game start at .25/.25.

My best route was to go .25/.50 max 40 to start off with. Then it's really just sort of open after that, a few guys will want to match big stack, some will stick with 40 every time, w/e.

I got a lot of balking when I suggested bumping to a $50 max. I don't get it either, but hey. Game plays short first hour or so but with 80BB stacks get in here and there and before you know it stacks range from 40 BB to 600 + by nights end. This has been a good compromise between those wanting to stick to their $40 and those wanting to play super deep.

 

[joseywales]

Thanks guys. I feel like I hijacked this thread, but hopefully the OP got some mileage out of it as well.

To be honest, ssanel54 hit it. We have never enforced ANY of the rules. At my table, I like rules for the same reason most any place has rules, if you're doing something we don't like, we can point to the rule and say, this is why you didn't get invited back. This was always a social game, but guys will bring a friend now and again. It's never been an issue. I have to admit though, I can't play when someone is wearing strong cologne. If I was at a cash game somewhere else and it was an issue, I would simply leave. Just can't tolerate it.

I mentioned increasing buy-ins to one guy and he said, "$150 buy-in, that would be great!" I know they won't all feel that way, but baby steps, baby steps. Our social game will find it's niche for sure, but my appetite might increase to where a second, more competitive game emerges.