Hustler Casino Live (7 Viewers)

[CrazyEddie]

Also, you should double-check the examples you posted; I think you mixed up some of the cards you meant to show, making it a bit confusing to see the point you're getting at.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Every time I float that one, which is definitely top of mind for seat 2 vs seat 9, the pushback has been that this particular dealer is basically the nuts. I’m have to imagine this is one of the theories that could be ruled out or ruled possible by all the cameras.

OK, it only took me one minute of research to see if I could watch this dealer's pitch and/or body language showing whether or not she struggles with pitching to the 9 seat. Yup, she sure as shit does. Look at this video, right around the 13-second mark. Watch how she has to adjust her body forward in an awkward manner just to deliver the cards to Garrett. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. This is the EXACT body movement that is a dead giveaway every time. If you are an experienced dealer, you know exactly what I'm talking about. If you're not, and you think this is all a nothing burger hand, you'll probably just roll your eyes again, in which case maybe you should try to learn something instead, because I used to deal poker for years, and I trained dealers as well, and I promise you, this is a very much a thing.

 

[swana]

@RainmanTrail

What is the % probability you think she cheated? Are you at 95%? More?

 

[TheDuke]

Really, this is the best you can come up with? How about a simple "call" or "fold" sign? And in an effort to save us all some time, I'll just go ahead and enter the :facepalm: now for when you inevitably respond with, "well how would he know HER cards then? AHA! Gotcha!"

Just trying to understand your point of view. It doesn't make much sense in terms of practicality on how it was carried out.

Moving on, what about your made up 5 degrees of pitch necessary to see the cards?

Robbi's head would have to be on the table to see cards at that angle.

 

[Kain8]

OK, it only took me one minute of research to see if I could watch this dealer's pitch and/or body language showing whether or not she struggles with pitching to the 9 seat. Yup, she sure as shit does. Look at this video, right around the 13-second mark. Watch how she has to adjust her body forward in an awkward manner just to deliver the cards to Garrett. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. This is the EXACT body movement that is a dead giveaway every time. If you are an experienced dealer, you know exactly what I'm talking about. If you're not, and you think this is all a nothing burger hand, you'll probably just roll your eyes again, in which case maybe you should try to learn something instead, because I used to deal poker for years, and I trained dealers as well, and I promise you, this is a very much a thing.

And when it cuts to Robbi not a few seconds later, she seems pretty damn trained on the spot where Garrett's cards landed.

 

[jpietrella]

OK, it only took me one minute of research to see if I could watch this dealer's pitch and/or body language showing whether or not she struggles with pitching to the 9 seat. Yup, she sure as shit does. Look at this video, right around the 13-second mark. Watch how she has to adjust her body forward in an awkward manner just to deliver the cards to Garrett. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. This is the EXACT body movement that is a dead giveaway every time. If you are an experienced dealer, you know exactly what I'm talking about. If you're not, and you think this is all a nothing burger hand, you'll probably just roll your eyes again, in which case maybe you should try to learn something instead, because I used to deal poker for years, and I trained dealers as well, and I promise you, this is a very much a thing.

Uh, sure. Just because she has to adjust to deliver to the 9 seat doesn't really prove anything and I don't see anything that would indicate that the delivery is resulting in an exposed card. If anything, I feel like her body movement is preventing the 1 and 2 seats from seeing anything.

So, eye roll burger nomnom, I guess.

 

[TheDuke]

OK, it only took me one minute of research to see if I could watch this dealer's pitch and/or body language showing whether or not she struggles with pitching to the 9 seat. Yup, she sure as shit does. Look at this video, right around the 13-second mark. Watch how she has to adjust her body forward in an awkward manner just to deliver the cards to Garrett. This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. This is the EXACT body movement that is a dead giveaway every time. If you are an experienced dealer, you know exactly what I'm talking about. If you're not, and you think this is all a nothing burger hand, you'll probably just roll your eyes again, in which case maybe you should try to learn something instead, because I used to deal poker for years, and I trained dealers as well, and I promise you, this is a very much a thing.

There's a better shot where you can actually see a hand of this particular dealer dealing to Garrett. Her body is not contorted to delivery the cards to Garrett. She delivers it seemlessly with a flat pitch. With your video, you can't even see the cards, just the top of her head.

2:03:25

 

[jpietrella]

There's a better shot where you can actually see a hand of this particular dealer dealing to Garrett. Her body is not contorted to delivery the cards to Garrett. She delivers it seemlessly with a flat pitch. With your video, you can't even see the cards, just the top of her head.

2:03:25

LOL. Yeah, perfect. In this shot you can see the reach/adjust forward has absolutely nothing to do with the card delivery but she's either pushing up something to the 7/8 seat or she's indicating where the action is.

 

[Sprouty]

LOL. Yeah, perfect. In this shot you can see the reach/adjust forward has absolutely nothing to do with the card delivery but she's either pushing up something to the 7/8 seat or she's indicating where the action is.

You guys realize your talking to a highly trained dealer right?

 

[RainmanTrail]

I think she'd need significantly more than 5 degrees.

Just some guesses in terms of the height Robbi's sight eyeline and her distance from Garrett. 18 inches from the table surface to her eyes and 6 feet away from Garrett. . I think 6 feet is being overly generous. Greater the distance the smaller the angle needed.

The cards would appear perpendicular to her sight at 14 degrees. So the pitch angle would have to be greater than that. I highly doubt this dealer is so bad as to pitch the cards that steep for a distance of 6-10 inches to Garrett's seat.

View attachment 999128

I'm saying about 5 degrees additional to her line of sight. But the exact degree necessary isn't the point. It doesn't matter what the angle needed is. The point is that this is very common. Just watch the cards come off the deck next time you play poker. Watch every dealer that rotates through. Especially if you are in the 2 or 3 seats and pay particular attention to when they pitch to seat 9 (or 10 if 10-handed). But they can do it to any seat. I bet you even money that you could catch a glimpse of at least one card from at least one dealer in every 8 hour session you play at almost any card room across the country. That's how common this is.

 

[raynmanas]

it is my humble opinion that a lot of people are giving far too much credit to robbi's capabilities in this debacle.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Well, that's exactly what I thought made this a bad call; I appreciate the explanation, but it hasn't added anything. What makes this an outlier?

How is this NOT an outlier? Do you really need me to come up with a mathematical formula that measures how many standard deviations away from normal a call is in order to recognize that this is as an outlier? If we really have to go there, then you'll just argue that my formula is flawed anyhow.

 

[TheDuke]

I'm saying about 5 degrees additional to her line of sight. But the exact degree necessary isn't the point. It doesn't matter what the angle needed is. The point is that this is very common. Just watch the cards come off the deck next time you play poker. Watch every dealer that rotates through. Especially if you are in the 2 or 3 seats and pay particular attention to when they pitch to seat 9 (or 10 if 10-handed). But they can do it to any seat. I bet you even money that you could catch a glimpse of at least one card from at least one dealer in every 8 hour session you play at almost any card room across the country. That's how common this is.

Ah ok. That makes alot more sense than just 5 degrees.

But still, based on my made up figures of 18 inch eye height and 72 inch distance, we're then talking about 19-20 degree pitch. That seems like an awfully steep pitch for a 6 to 10 inch distance from the dealer to Garrett. I don't see how a professional dealer wouldn't be able to deal to seat 9 with a flatter pitch than that. Even right handed.

The dealer in question is small and you can see she uses the rotation of her chair to aide in her angle of delivery.

The example I posted shows an effortless flat pitch to Garrett.

If there's cheating, I don't think it's due to the dealer flashing cards.

 

[RainmanTrail]

View attachment 999104
Garrett has his chip stack to his right.

And the distance from the dealer's to Garrett is like 6 inches. She's more just setting the cards in front of Garrett vs pitching.

I don't see how Rip or Ronni have any chance getting a glimpse of Garrett's cards. Certainly not while the dealer is dealing them out.

As an experienced former dealer and as someone who trained dealers, and who specifically taught them how to pitch to the 9 seat to avoid this exact problem, I assure you, you're wrong. The distance the card needs to travel doesn't matter. What matters is the angle they come off the deck. Dealing to the 9 seat is awkward.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point. This is either something you're already aware of or it isn't. But I'm not going to sit here and argue whether or not this is a thing with people who don't know what they're talking about. You can either take my word for it or ask an experienced dealer about it next time you're in a casino. But don't ask them if THEY have trouble dealing to the 9 seat, ask them if OTHER dealers have this problem. If the dealer is right handed, then the 9 seat is difficult and the players in seats 1 through 4 are in a position to be able to take advantage of poorly pitched cards. If they are left handed then the 1 seat is difficult and players in seats 6 through 9 are in position to catch the flaws in their pitch.

This is absolutely a thing in poker whether you were aware of it before or not. It's also EXTREMELY common. So common in fact, that you could probably observe this every day in almost every card room across the country that has multiple games running.

 

[Sprouty]

Travis is so highly trained that he can spot a cheater before they even consider cheating.

 

[TheDuke]

As an experienced former dealer and as someone who trained dealers, and who specifically taught them how to pitch to the 9 seat to avoid this exact problem, I assure you, you're wrong. The distance the card needs to travel doesn't matter. What matters is the angle they come off the deck. Dealing to the 9 seat is awkward.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point. This is either something you're already aware of or it isn't. But I'm not going to sit here and argue whether or not this is a thing with people who don't know what they're talking about. You can either take my word for it or ask an experienced dealer about it next time you're in a casino. But don't ask them if THEY have trouble dealing to the 9 seat, ask them if OTHER dealers have this problem. If the dealer is right handed, then the 9 seat is difficult and the players in seats 1 through 4 are in a position to be able to take advantage of poorly pitched cards. If they are left handed then the 1 seat is difficult and players in seats 6 through 9 are in position to catch the flaws in their pitch.

This is absolutely a thing in poker whether you were aware of it before or not. It's also EXTREMELY common. So common in fact, that you could probably observe this every day in almost every card room across the country that has multiple games running.

But what about the video example I posted? It's a direct viewable example of this dealer at work. She has zero difficulty pitching to Garrett.

She didn't have to adjust her body 'forward in an awkward manner'.

And her delivery looked flat.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I'm actually surprised that more people aren't discussing the possibility of her catching a glimpse of his cards from the dealer's pitch. She very easily could have seen just enough of his cards to know that he was dealt two small black cards at the very least, and possibly even two small clubs. She'd only need about a 5 degree angle or so to pick up on that. It's not like the cards would have to completely flash. When I used to train dealers back in the day, I was constantly getting on them about this. It's way more common than most players realize. Maybe they're just not paying attention, but it doesn't take much to at least be able to tell if someone was just dealt a face card or if they were just dealt a small red card or a medium black card even if you don't know exactly what it was.

If Robbi knew that Garrett had two small black cards in this hand, that would be enough info for her to make the call. Perhaps this is actually why she was so hung up on the 3h turn card. Maybe she was trying to figure out if Garrett actually had the 3c, knowing he had two smallish clubs or two smallish black cards?

The mental gymnastics people are doing to get where they can justify calling her a cheat is astonishing

I'm not reading it that way at all. I think there are enough people here, myself included, that have been saying "if you think she could have cheated, then how might she have done it?" that speculation like this contributes to the conversation. Honestly, this is possibly the one explanation I've seen that is most plausible, because it's the least reliant on technology, or having an inside connection. Maybe everyone else here already knows about this, but I sure didn't. I appreciate this as now it's something that I'll look out for whenever I'm dealing. @RainmanTrail isn't saying this is proof that she did cheat, just this is one way that she could have cheated.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Well obviously Seidel doesn't understand any idea about how to play poker, just ask anyone that know poker.

Good comparison but I'm sure the super intelligent side will pick it apart.

If you don't understand the differences between Seidel's J high call and Robbi's J high call, then I simply don't think I can't help you. The differences are HUGE, and no, it is not that one of these players has a penis and the other has a vagina.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

He's probably thinking "I know what Garret has, which is nothing. So unless she's a total fucking idiot, she must be ahead of him since she's still in this hand."
As it turned out, she was both a total fucking idiot and ahead.

This is another of the more plausible possibilities how they could have cheated. Rip strongly believes that Garrett is on a draw, and assumes Robbi has a better hand that she actually does. You know, because she's still in the hand... Since he's backing her, he somehow signals her to call, thinking she's probably further ahead.

 

[TheBigTater]

If you don't understand the differences between Seidel's J high call and Robbi's J high call, then I simply don't think I can't help you. The differences are HUGE, and no, it is not that one of these players has a penis and the other has a vagina.

Don't worry Trav, most of us are not worthy enough to breath in your rarified air.

I to dub to understnd, u to smrt to explane......

 

[TheDuke]

I bet you even money that you could catch a glimpse of at least one card from at least one dealer in every 8 hour session

1 card every 8 hours. Let's say you have a slow table and only get 20 hands per hour.

That's 1 hand out of 160 hands. 0.625%

That to you is an easily exploited problem?

Seriously?

 

[Budha]

I'm not reading it that way at all. I think there are enough people here, myself included, that have been saying "if you think she could have cheated, then how might she have done it?" that speculation like this contributes to the conversation. Honestly, this is possibly the one explanation I've seen that is most plausible, because it's the least reliant on technology, or having an inside connection. Maybe everyone else here already knows about this, but I sure didn't. I appreciate this as now it's something that I'll look out for whenever I'm dealing. @RainmanTrail isn't saying this is proof that she did cheat, just this is one way that she could have cheated.

This is well said, and point well made. Thank you!

Your interpretation/explanation comes across a little bit more palatable vs the “to not agree with me, is to not agree with science” approach .

Her having seen one or both of his cards is certainly a possibility, however not an absolute by any means. As common as flashed cards in the 9 spot may be, I’d wager my house on plain old bad decisions are a LOT more common- lol.

Therefore I don’t dismiss @RainmanTrail’s theory as impossible, however based on the currently available evidence, I choose to remain open to other equally likely possibilities.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Uh, sure. Just because she has to adjust to deliver to the 9 seat doesn't really prove anything and I don't see anything that would indicate that the delivery is resulting in an exposed card. If anything, I feel like her body movement is preventing the 1 and 2 seats from seeing anything.

So, eye roll burger nomnom, I guess.

I have no idea whether or not she in fact saw his hole cards. I'm merely pointing out that this is very much possible and that when I learned how to deal this point was stressed on me countless times. I have also stressed it on both new and experienced dealers countless times myself as a former poker room manager. It is very much a thing. And in this particular hand, both Robbi and Garrett happen to be in the seats where this is most likely to come into play. Do with that information what you will.

On another note, I'm currently playing in an Omaha tournament and the dealer at my table is exposing every single card off the pitch to the entire left side of the table right now. Literally every single card, every single hand. Fortunately, the other players don't appear to notice. And I'm in seat 7.

 

[RainmanTrail]

But what about the video example I posted? It's a direct viewable example of this dealer at work. She has zero difficulty pitching to Garrett.

She didn't have to adjust her body 'forward in an awkward manner'.

And her delivery looked flat.

I think you may have listed the wrong link? It's not searchable and just looks like a live stream for me. But either way, it doesn't matter. I've already shown that she has difficulty pitching to seat 9 in my video link above. You can see it with your own eyes. It is an observable fact. That forward dipping motion is precisely what I'm talking about. You could spot it from 50 yards away if you know what to look for.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I think you may have listed the wrong link? It's not searchable and just looks like a live stream for me. But either way, it doesn't matter. I've already shown that she has difficulty pitching to seat 9 in my video link above. You can see it with your own eyes. It is an observable fact. That forward dipping motion is precisely what I'm talking about. You could spot it from 50 yards away if you know what to look for.

It's the entire stream. You have to skip forward to the 2:03:20 point to see the deal he was referring to. It's a camera angle from the other side of the table, and on this deal she does not shift her body the way she did in the one you pointed out.

 

[TheDuke]

I think you may have listed the wrong link? It's not searchable and just looks like a live stream for me. But either way, it doesn't matter. I've already shown that she has difficulty pitching to seat 9 in my video link above. You can see it with your own eyes. It is an observable fact. That forward dipping motion is precisely what I'm talking about. You could spot it from 50 yards away if you know what to look for.

No, try again. It's the ACTUAL VIDEO of this controversial session. Go to the time that I list. It's a VERY CLEAR example of the dealer involved. She pitches to Garrett cleanly and without ANY ISSUE.

The video you posted is the top of head. That's not clear at all.

 

[RainmanTrail]

1 card every 8 hours. Let's say you have a slow table and only get 20 hands per hour.

That's 1 hand out of 160 hands. 0.625%

That to you is an easily exploited problem?

Seriously?

Yes. It's far more common than you'd think. The probability of you catching it would follow a joint distribution though. Something like a Tweedie distribution, if you're familiar with that. Basically, a dealer is either capable of exposing it or not, and for those who are, the likelihood fluctuates. Some card rooms are better than others, depending on how well they train their dealers and how dialed in the floor staff is with respect to this problem. When I was trained many years ago though, much emphasis was placed on preventing it with several different techniques for how to pitch to the 9 seat without exposing his/her cards. It's not something that's well known though in the poker world. Most players have no idea that this is even a thing.

But if you take away one thing from this conversation, let it be this: next time you are playing poker and you see a guy slouching down in the 2, 3 or 4 seats with sunglasses on, you would be wise to pay attention to the dealer's pitch and speak up if necessary.

 

[RainmanTrail]

LOL. Yeah, perfect. In this shot you can see the reach/adjust forward has absolutely nothing to do with the card delivery but she's either pushing up something to the 7/8 seat or she's indicating where the action is.

This is a different hand. And in this one she clearly pauses her deal to move something in front of seat 8 before delivering the cards, so she's already leaning forward.

This also isn't something that can be ruled out simply by observing a different hand. It can only be ruled IN by observing a different hand. The likelihood of a dealer exposing cards off the pitch varies based on several different environmental factors, some of which are in their control, others of which are not. Things like where the players chips are sitting, where the button is placed, where the players hands are located, how crowded the table is or if the dealer is feeling squeezed in by seats 1 or 9, where the drop box is located, and even things like how high the dealer's chair is or how long their arms are or even how large their belly is, can all play a role. And some pitching techniques are more susceptible than others. Generally, if a dealer tries to use the same technique to pitch seat 9 as they do to the other 8 seats, then they're more likely to have this be an issue.

 

[RainmanTrail]

No, try again. It's the ACTUAL VIDEO of this controversial session. Go to the time that I list. It's a VERY CLEAR example of the dealer involved. She pitches to Garrett cleanly and without ANY ISSUE.

The video you posted is the top of head. That's not clear at all.

OK. Well, clearly you're the expert then. You would know. Please disregard everything I've said on the topic. I'm just pulling this all out of thin air.

 

[RainmanTrail]

We have a new dealer now. He is exposing nearly every card to every seat at the table on every pitch. Seat 2 just got pitched the Ace of clubs. I saw it clear as day and I'm sitting upright in seat 7. Player to my right just got pitched a face card. I just said something to the floor man about it.