I get away from a lot, but this one? Thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[aaron2786]

First off - you're usually gonna get stacked (or doubled through) on a monotone flop with the K high flush if the board runs out non-paired and non heart, so let's get that out of the way.

To critique your play:
- Preflop I think flatting with the K9hh is fine, folding is fine and 3betting is fine, but it's not a strong enough hand to try and entice people to come along with - if you're 3b you're wanting to take down the dead money or isolate to 1 player max, $20 is rarely going to do either, I'm making it about $40-50 with a hand that's tough to play OOP
- By my math, you overbet $65 into ~$40 after the rake - why are you trying to "take down" the pot with a pretty nutted hand? You want all of the straights, sets, two pairs, flush draws and inferior flushes to come along. A more std line is betting something like 33-60% here, keeping in a lot of worse hands.
- When you go 1.5x pot on the flop and V raises you to $145 leaving $140 behind, he's not trying to take down the pot, that's barely a min click - he's trying to figure out how to get your money in. Him going all-in is the only play that has fold equity with say a flopped set, straight or two pair - this min raise of an overbet just shouts strength - if there's ever a spot to get away from this hand, this would've been it, but your overbet pretty much pot committed you.

To critique your play:

you're wanting to take down the dead money or isolate to 1 player

It did isolate it down to one player, which is what I was looking for (my local spot, my read on the table, my bet made that happen at the minimum put in the center), if I hadn't raised out of position, the HJ was also going to come along on a flat. Also let's stop with the "OOP" stuff. Yes literal position is a thing, a big thing, but not everything. Certainly not in what is going to be a heads up spot in a cash game. As stated I had seen this guy reload TWICE in an hour, on him playing his hands overvalued. My position to him was isolation. It may sound cocky (but sometimes it's just matter of fact to say) I'm a better player than him, the goal was to out play him, position be damned, his cards made him a better hand, so be it. This is a play I have run on one hundred different people, hundreds of times.

By my math, you overbet $65 into ~$40 after the rake - why are you trying to "take down" the pot with a pretty nutted hand?

Because I know what I'm holding, and what I'm not holding. My 9H doesn't block a straight flush from being made with me. If he's holding the 4H or 5H, then I could be dead on to the 4H or the 3H peeling. I also could be dead to any other heart peeling on the turn except the 5, if he is simply holding the AH.

You want all of the straights, sets, two pairs, flush draws and inferior flushes to come along

You absolutely the hell do not want that. Straights, inferior flush draws and inferior flushes yes, that's why the over bet... Those guys are coming along. Made flushes are either calling flat, or more likely with the button raising here to the $65.. that could easily have been JT QT.

But no, you do not want made two pair or made sets continuing here, certainly not for a check or a cheap $20 bet. Why? You really want to feel dead to any 6, 7 or 8 that can peel on the turn or river? You want to feel dead to any heart that could peel except the 5 or 9 if your opponent is hold AH + any 6, 7 or 8? No. Though the spot and run out finished unfortunately not in my favor, to have my hand and that flop and think (even given his actions behind) that you're not insanely strong here, and should somehow give a behind hand even the possibility to catch up is crazy.

he's not trying to take down the pot

Never ran into a board like this when you flopped top two or a set? Never ran an effective bluff, thinking perhaps someone's pre flop raise OOP is maybe just a hand like KK? Ya can't read his mind, man. It's a coin flip in the truest sense. One play will be what it ended up being, and another 6 just like it will go the other way.

if there's ever a spot to get away from this hand, this would've been it

No one gets away from that hand. If you're saying you think you would've, I'm saying, "I don't believe you" lol



Btw, that was the question of this thread: "Does anyone get away here?"

 

[Jimulacrum]

First off - you're usually gonna get stacked (or doubled through) on a monotone flop with the K high flush if the board runs out non-paired and non heart, so let's get that out of the way.

Are you saying he's going to usually lose when the board runs out clean? I feel like you have to mean it the other way around.

 

[MrRossKeys]

A more std line is betting something like 33-60% here, keeping in a lot of worse hands.

I said something similar in my post, but less about keeping in worse hands, and more about sizing in a way that allows you to fold to a raise.... it's the only way I can imagine getting away from your hand with the read of the player you had.

You absolutely the hell do not want that. Straights, inferior flush draws and inferior flushes yes, that's why the over bet... Those guys are coming along. Made flushes are either calling flat, or more likely with the button raising here to the $65.. that could easily have been JT QT.

But no, you do not want made two pair or made sets continuing here, certainly not for a check or a cheap $20 bet. Why? You really want to feel dead to any 6, 7 or 8 that can peel on the turn or river? You want to feel dead to any heart that could peel except the 5 or 9 if your opponent is hold AH + any 6, 7 or 8? No. Though the spot and run out finished unfortunately not in my favor, to have my hand and that flop and think (even given his actions behind) that you're not insanely strong here, and should somehow give a behind hand even the possibility to catch up is crazy.

I've thought about this scenario a lot lately. Let's pretend for a second that another player had flopped 87 top two-pair and they had position against you and villain. If play had continued exactly the same with you betting more than pot, and villain re-raises to $140, sure there's a decent chance player 3 folds top 2 pair and lives to fight another day.

But, if villain has 87 top two and you bet $65.... does that entice villain to fold as often as they would in a multiway pot? I guess what I'm asking is, what is the difference in this case between a bet of $45 and $65? If villain likes the board in any way they aren't folding for the extra $20 in this case, but for you the aggressor you get the same information with a $45 bet as you do a $65 bet, especially heads up. If you're trying to take it down to get rid of the inferior hands that draw to a winning hand then an even higher bet may have been needed (say, $100+).... and if you're testing the waters or luring villain in, then there probably isn't much difference between a smaller bet and a bet of $65.

But of course bet-sizing is totally related to table play and even region as to what is considered an over-bet, so ignore anything that sounds wrong for your games. Cheers.

 

[aaron2786]

I said something similar in my post, but less about keeping in worse hands, and more about sizing in a way that allows you to fold to a raise.... it's the only way I can imagine getting away from your hand with the read of the player you had.

I've thought about this scenario a lot lately. Let's pretend for a second that another player had flopped 87 top two-pair and they had position against you and villain. If play had continued exactly the same with you betting more than pot, and villain re-raises to $140, sure there's a decent chance player 3 folds top 2 pair and lives to fight another day.

But, if villain has 87 top two and you bet $65.... does that entice villain to fold as often as they would in a multiway pot? I guess what I'm asking is, what is the difference in this case between a bet of $45 and $65? If villain likes the board in any way they aren't folding for the extra $20 in this case, but for you the aggressor you get the same information with a $45 bet as you do a $65 bet, especially heads up. If you're trying to take it down to get rid of the inferior hands that draw to a winning hand then an even higher bet may have been needed (say, $100+).... and if you're testing the waters or luring villain in, then there probably isn't much difference between a smaller bet and a bet of $65.

But of course bet-sizing is totally related to table play and even region as to what is considered an over-bet, so ignore anything that sounds wrong for your games. Cheers.

Someone close this thread, my man just put it in the best words possible.


My angle on it is much more simple, reverse the hands, say I'm holding the ATH in the SB and the Button villian is holding the K9HH - I play it the same way pre and post flop, given the player, does it run any different? Probably not. Kirk and Picars knew this, they were smart men...

 

[kmccormick100]

To critique your play:

It did isolate it down to one player, which is what I was looking for (my local spot, my read on the table, my bet made that happen at the minimum put in the center), if I hadn't raised out of position, the HJ was also going to come along on a flat. Also let's stop with the "OOP" stuff. Yes literal position is a thing, a big thing, but not everything. Certainly not in what is going to be a heads up spot in a cash game. As stated I had seen this guy reload TWICE in an hour, on him playing his hands overvalued. My position to him was isolation. It may sound cocky (but sometimes it's just matter of fact to say) I'm a better player than him, the goal was to out play him, position be damned, his cards made him a better hand, so be it. This is a play I have run on one hundred different people, hundreds of times.







Because I know what I'm holding, and what I'm not holding. My 9H doesn't block a straight flush from being made with me. If he's holding the 4H or 5H, then I could be dead on to the 4H or the 3H peeling. I also could be dead to any other heart peeling on the turn except the 5, if he is simply holding the AH.



You absolutely the hell do not want that. Straights, inferior flush draws and inferior flushes yes, that's why the over bet... Those guys are coming along. Made flushes are either calling flat, or more likely with the button raising here to the $65.. that could easily have been JT QT.

But no, you do not want made two pair or made sets continuing here, certainly not for a check or a cheap $20 bet. Why? You really want to feel dead to any 6, 7 or 8 that can peel on the turn or river? You want to feel dead to any heart that could peel except the 5 or 9 if your opponent is hold AH + any 6, 7 or 8? No. Though the spot and run out finished unfortunately not in my favor, to have my hand and that flop and think (even given his actions behind) that you're not insanely strong here, and should somehow give a behind hand even the possibility to catch up is crazy.





Never ran into a board like this when you flopped top two or a set? Never ran an effective bluff, thinking perhaps someone's pre flop raise OOP is maybe just a hand like KK? Ya can't read his mind, man. It's a coin flip in the truest sense. One play will be what it ended up being, and another 6 just like it will go the other way.




No one gets away from that hand. If you're saying you think you would've, I'm saying, "I don't believe you" lol



Btw, that was the question of this thread: "Does anyone get away here?"

You are welcome in my game anytime.

Are you saying he's going to usually lose when the board runs out clean? I feel like you have to mean it the other way around.

I meant to add in there “vs the nut flush”

 

[aaron2786]

You are welcome in my game anytime

Oh, now don't go gettin' ya fee fee's all twisted.


Also, I love the reaction from those that say stuff like "you're welcome at my game". Man, you're not Phil Ivey, chill.

 

[kmccormick100]

Oh, now don't go gettin' ya fee fee's all twisted.


Also, I love the reaction from those that say stuff like "you're welcome at my game". Man, you're not Phil Ivey, chill.View attachment 1143220

Sorry I was trying to provide some constructive strategy feedback in the strategy forum.

Re: your question, no, you’re probably never getting away from the 2nd flush vs the nut flush, 100bb effective.

 

[surfik]

Well played..

 

[aaron2786]

Sorry I was trying to provide some constructive strategy feedback in the strategy forum.

Re: your question, no, you’re probably never getting away from the 2nd flush vs the nut flush, 100bb effective.

No worries, dude, I'm just responding. But seriously let's even take your route, with the preflop action standing and it going heads up to the flop.

Check the flop or bet your 33-60%


Ok, now what? Well we know from reality the button is going to raise.

Call flat, re-raise or fold?


Did you make it to the turn? If so it comes out the Q clubs. Check? Bet?

Button isn't giving away free cards we know that. So again, call, raise or fold?

River is the 5 diamonds. Still in the same spot you were on the flop, except the button assumes short of me raising pre, I'm most likely not playing 59HH. So he "knows" he's nutted, same money is going in. Yep, there are a lot more combos, especially considering the button that make sense with the AH, A2, A3, A4, A5, AT-Q vs QJ, QT, JT

There are also tons of combos of AH + any off suit Broadway card that called pre flop and continued to pull for the nut flush. Or as we said, straights, two pair, sets etc.

Surely you're still calling a river bet? I mean now you really are pot committed. At least the flop jam gives you the chance to fold out the losing hands with the risk of a suck out. I was just on the bad end.

 

[Eriks]

There is no getting away from this exact hand against villains exact hand on that flop. But you’re better off trying to play your range against villain’s perceived range.

Quite frankly, this hand is a train wreck and I don’t know why you get so defensive about it. @kmccormick100 may not be Phil Ivey but it definitely seems your game could benefit from listening to his advice.

Why post a hand in the strategy forum if you’re just looking for a pat on the back?

 

[aaron2786]

There is no getting away from this exact hand against villains exact hand on that flop. But you’re better off trying to play your range against villain’s perceived range.

Quite frankly, this hand is a train wreck and I don’t know why you get so defensive about it. @kmccormick100 may not be Phil Ivey but it definitely seems your game could benefit from listening to his advice.

Why post a hand in the strategy forum if you’re just looking for a pat on the back?

Thanks for participating. No one is looking for a pat on the back.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Don't hate playing your hand pre, but I don't get the 3 betting from the small blind. Probably a decent play in a tournament setting, although in that case I would have 3 x'ed it, but in a cash game it doesn't make sense to bloat the pot here. Especially if you think you have the advantage in poker skill against your opponent, you want to be as deep stacked as possible.

That being said, not sure if you're ever getting away from this particular hand. Hypothetically you call pre, as does HJ. You check the flop, button makes it $20, you check raise to $65. If he still 3 bets to $145, are you really folding here? it's still probably all going in the pot.

 

[grebe]

I would have checked flop. Out of position, you should be checking just about 99% of your holdings on that kind of wet board.

I like to bet small on these flops as preflop aggressor.

I don't know how good the preflop 3 bet is here, probably too small.

Other than that little detail, the rest is fine. No way do I fold to that stack size.... Or probably ever.

 

[grebe]

I don't think K9s is strong enough out-of-position to deliberately downsize to get a call. Honestly, if you are going to 3-bet here, I would be going for a size that gives you a chance to just pick it up against villain's weaker opens, especially if you think the button has a wide-steal range here. Taking it down pre with K9s out of position should be looked at as a good result. Getting a caller isn't bad, but the bigger they call (especially with inferior holdings) the bigger the mistake villain is making.

That said, it's a little different to be first in with a raise as villain and making a smallish-raise over a limp. I'm probably not going to give villain as wide of a range as I would if he were first in. He probably has at least medium strength so maybe just a flat with K9s is better. I don't hate the raise though either, other than the mentality that we usually want a call from button, I don't think that's true. We want button to fold at least some of his range if we are raising here.



If you made the decision to play K9s preflop (and I am good with that, to be clear even if we dispute call vs raise or raise sizing) you are also deciding to play for stacks when you hit a flush. If you aren't willing to play for stacks when you catch this flop, there is no point in playing it pre. In other words, part of your decision preflop is understanding you are taking your medicine on this particular cooler when it comes up.

Well said.

 

[aaron2786]

I like to bet small on these flops as preflop aggressor.

I don't know how good the preflop 3 bet is here, probably too small.

Other than that little detail, the rest is fine. No way do I fold to that stack size.... Or probably ever.

Yeah not having him covered 2:1+ and effectively only have ~ $80 of my own money at that point even be at risk (having brought at $400, and sitting at - now that I've done the full math - $631)

There's 169 starting combos (I mean 1,326 - but were not counting all that) and exactly 8 exact hand combos the guy has to have post flop to be ahead (and that's including 45HH if he actually jumped in with something like that)

It's going in. Hell it did go in, he just had one of the eight. Tough break.

 

[JustinInMN]

There's 169 starting combos (I mean 1,326 - but were not counting all that) and exactly 8 exact hand combos the guy has to have post flop to be ahead (and that's including 45HH if he actually jumped in with something like that)

I mean that's not exactly the way to look at this. I think raising over a limp he more likely has something like 30-40 of the possible 169 combos. I would range raiser something like AK-ATo (5), AK-A5s (6) , KQ-K8s (5), KQo (1), QJ-QTs (2), pairs AA-66 (9), so I would give him credit for only 28 of the 169 possible combos, some share of that is suited in hearts. However, remember that 169 combos is with no respect to suits.

If you want to factor in suits which allows you to factor in card removal. There are 12 AK (4 aces with any of 3 kings), 16 AQ (4 aces with any of 4 queens), 16 AJ, 16 AT, 3 A9s (not hearts), 3 A8s (8h on flop), 3 A7s (7h on flop), 3 A6s (6h on flop), 4 A5s, 3 KQs (not hearts), 3 KJs, 3 KTs, 3 K9s, 3 K8s, 4 QJs, 4 QTs, 6 AA, 3 KK (no Kh), 6 QQ, 6 JJ, 6 TT, 3 99 (no 9h), 3 88 (no 8h), 3 77 (no 7h), 3 66 (no 6h)

Now with the datapoint that villian is raising the flop, I am going to trim this range down significantly. I am going to take away all the unpaired hands that are not hearts. So that leaves me with , , , , , , AA (6x), KK (3x), QQ (6x), JJ (6x), TT (6x), 99 (3x), 88 (3x), 77 (3x), 66 (3x)

So I think after the flop action there are 45 specific combos villain can have and 4 of them are the nut flush. So I guess my point is, you will probably be shown the nut flush closer to 10% of the time, not the 5% of the time you were implying by saying it's an 8 out of 169 occurrence. You also will be shown sets about 20% of the time here (and they will improve to full houses or better about 1 time in 3), You will be shown TT+ about 2/3 of the time. The only of these combos that could draw out on you would be the 3 AA ones containing , barring runner-runner full house (which does happen more than zero I suppose.)

But this is the correct way to estimate your opponents' likelihood of having a given nut combination, by estimating a whole range.

It's a mistake for players to romanticize the notion of "putting a player on a hand," this often causes players to overlook less favorable opportunities. What the best players do is evaluate the whole range of possibilities and decide where their holding fits in.

Even given this analysis, if I would only expect to be shown the nut flush 10% of the time, I think playing for stacks is still an easy choice. But I wanted to point out that you will be shown the nut flush and other holdings that can draw out more often that you would initially assume.

 

[aaron2786]

I mean that's not exactly the way to look at this. I think raising over a limp he more likely has something like 30-40 of the possible 169 combos. I would range raiser something like AK-ATo (5), AK-A5s (6) , KQ-K8s (5), KQo (1), QJ-QTs (2), pairs AA-66 (9), so I would give him credit for only 28 of the 169 possible combos, some share of that is suited in hearts. However, remember that 169 combos is with no respect to suits.

If you want to factor in suits which allows you to factor in card removal. There are 12 AK (4 aces with any of 3 kings), 16 AQ (4 aces with any of 4 queens), 16 AJ, 16 AT, 3 A9s (not hearts), 3 A8s (8h on flop), 3 A7s (7h on flop), 3 A6s (6h on flop), 4 A5s, 3 KQs (not hearts), 3 KJs, 3 KTs, 3 K9s, 3 K8s, 4 QJs, 4 QTs, 6 AA, 3 KK (no Kh), 6 QQ, 6 JJ, 6 TT, 3 99 (no 9h), 3 88 (no 8h), 3 77 (no 7h), 3 66 (no 6h)

Now with the datapoint that villian is raising the flop, I am going to trim this range down significantly. I am going to take away all the unpaired hands that are not hearts. So that leaves me with , , , , , , AA (6x), KK (3x), QQ (6x), JJ (6x), TT (6x), 99 (3x), 88 (3x), 77 (3x), 66 (3x)

So I think after the flop action there are 45 specific combos villain can have and 4 of them are the nut flush. So I guess my point is, you will probably be shown the nut flush closer to 10% of the time, not the 5% of the time you were implying by saying it's an 8 out of 169 occurrence. You also will be shown sets about 20% of the time here (and they will improve to full houses or better about 1 time in 3), You will be shown TT+ about 2/3 of the time. The only of these combos that could draw out on you would be the 3 AA ones containing , barring runner-runner full house (which does happen more than zero I suppose.)

But this is the correct way to estimate your opponents' likelihood of having a given nut combination, by estimating a whole range.

It's a mistake for players to romanticize the notion of "putting a player on a hand," this often causes players to overlook less favorable opportunities. What the best players do is evaluate the whole range of possibilities and decide where their holding fits in.

Even given this analysis, if I would only expect to be shown the nut flush 10% of the time, I think playing for stacks is still an easy choice. But I wanted to point out that you will be shown the nut flush and other holdings that can draw out more often that you would initially assume.

I think the difference here between 5% and 10%, while yeah a difference, is really semantics. Give the guy a 25% chance he rolls the nuts up on me, ok, I still took that consideration into mind when I made the push.


Hell, this is all semantics. Given how the board ran out, calling flat behind the entire time is still going to end in roughly the same result. Even assuming the "lose the lease scenario" of the opponent betting 1/2 pot on each street, the pot still winds up at $320, granted that's half of what it cost, but we know it's not gonna play that soft, especially on the river. Which is still going to leave you with the same decision I faced on the flop

 

[JustinInMN]

difference here between 5% and 10%, while yeah a difference, is really semantics.

The difference between 5% and 10% is twice as often. I am agreeing the math still works, but I was hoping to point you to a new way to evaluate possible opponent holdings.

Hell, this is all semantics. Given how the board ran out, calling flat behind the entire time is still going to end in roughly the same result. Even assuming the "lose the lease scenario" of the opponent betting 1/2 pot on each street, the pot still winds up at $320, granted that's half of what it cost, but we know it's not gonna play that soft, especially on the river. Which is still going to leave you with the same decision I faced on the flop

Agree with all of this, but will point out, it's just the result of one hand. When discussing strategy, it's about refining methods to get the right answer as often as possible.

 

[RedToBlue]

Imagine posting flopped nf vs snf (with a 1:1 SPR after cbet on flop) and asking if you could get away. Where else do you play and will you play bigger? Please?

 

[aaron2786]

Imagine posting flopped nf vs snf (with a 1:1 SPR after cbet on flop) and asking if you could get away. Where else do you play and will you play bigger? Please?

Very insightful. Thanks.

 

[shorticus]

Anyone claiming to fold here as played is lying or should come and play at any table with me any time. You have 3rd nuts with a redraw to a SF.

 

[RedToBlue]

Anyone claiming to fold here as played is lying or should come and play at any table with me any time. You have 3rd nuts with a redraw to a SF.

Nothing to see here. Just a bunch of nits talking poker.

 

[aaron2786]

Nothing to see here. Just a bunch of nits talking poker.

Bro, why are you here? Are you so bored you just want to try and rile up crap?

 

[RedToBlue]

Wdym? It’s a ridiculously dumb question to ask if you misplayed a flopped flush over flush hand (let alone A high vs K high) in a short stacked 1-3 game.

 

[RedToBlue]

Also fwiw, min clicking back pre OOP with K9hh is probably one of the worst plays I’ve ever read about at a poker table.

 

[BPTDirector]

It’s hard to get away if you look at 5 hearts already of 13 total of which you have two and second highest rank plus x number of players to have a spread of the other 8 with one of that group also having 2 hearts and the one higher ranking card over yours in the deck. That is textbook cooler buddy.

 

[aaron2786]

Also fwiw, min clicking back pre OOP with K9hh is probably one of the worst plays I’ve ever read about at a poker table.

Ok.

 

[NeutronHim]

Preflop: you do not want "to go gentle for a caller." I'm playing tight and I'm going 40 with range. We need to lower the SPR rapidly because being OOP is absolutely fucked. You do not want to be OOP. You do not want a caller OOP. Especially not with k9 of hearts, but even with literally any hand besides aa kk imo. Go big, and if he calls now all of a sudden the SPR is 3 and you've just gotten rid of a street of being OOP.

Dunno if I want to check flop here but I think betting very very small with range is nice. Check is also fine -- its literally 678, top 4 nightmares of any player who has the betting lead pre. If it was 2 tone I think its a mandatory check (maybe not cuz of the pre almost-min-click, idk,) but since its not I think small bet and check are both fine. I think when you (almost) minclick pre you want to bet this flop.

You are always going broke, though. Folding K9hh is insane. If we care more about decisions made along the way than the result that you go broke, I still think shipping flop is correct. He can just have a suited connector. 67 78 8t? tj jq. You minclicked it pre so he also probably has a whole host of other crap. You NEED to go for value here Imo and get stationed by all those flushes and sets (that btw are priced in to call your three bet.)

Mandatory ship IMO.

 

[NeutronHim]

To critique your play:

It did isolate it down to one player, which is what I was looking for (my local spot, my read on the table, my bet made that happen at the minimum put in the center), if I hadn't raised out of position, the HJ was also going to come along on a flat. Also let's stop with the "OOP" stuff. Yes literal position is a thing, a big thing, but not everything. Certainly not in what is going to be a heads up spot in a cash game. As stated I had seen this guy reload TWICE in an hour, on him playing his hands overvalued. My position to him was isolation. It may sound cocky (but sometimes it's just matter of fact to say) I'm a better player than him, the goal was to out play him, position be damned, his cards made him a better hand, so be it. This is a play I have run on one hundred different people, hundreds of times.







Because I know what I'm holding, and what I'm not holding. My 9H doesn't block a straight flush from being made with me. If he's holding the 4H or 5H, then I could be dead on to the 4H or the 3H peeling. I also could be dead to any other heart peeling on the turn except the 5, if he is simply holding the AH.



You absolutely the hell do not want that. Straights, inferior flush draws and inferior flushes yes, that's why the over bet... Those guys are coming along. Made flushes are either calling flat, or more likely with the button raising here to the $65.. that could easily have been JT QT.

But no, you do not want made two pair or made sets continuing here, certainly not for a check or a cheap $20 bet. Why? You really want to feel dead to any 6, 7 or 8 that can peel on the turn or river? You want to feel dead to any heart that could peel except the 5 or 9 if your opponent is hold AH + any 6, 7 or 8? No. Though the spot and run out finished unfortunately not in my favor, to have my hand and that flop and think (even given his actions behind) that you're not insanely strong here, and should somehow give a behind hand even the possibility to catch up is crazy.





Never ran into a board like this when you flopped top two or a set? Never ran an effective bluff, thinking perhaps someone's pre flop raise OOP is maybe just a hand like KK? Ya can't read his mind, man. It's a coin flip in the truest sense. One play will be what it ended up being, and another 6 just like it will go the other way.




No one gets away from that hand. If you're saying you think you would've, I'm saying, "I don't believe you" lol



Btw, that was the question of this thread: "Does anyone get away here?"

woah strongly disagree here. "Let's stop with the oop stuff?????" That is crazy talk. I know so many people at low (sub 5/10, but they're rising) stakes that literally just play nit OOP and LAG IP and it's insanely profitable. Let's not stop with the oop stuff. I know players who 3bet aa kk qq jj ak in the small blind, fold the rest, and are crushing admittedly soft games.

He's a bad player according to you. He's gonna call 40. Or maybe you 3bet out of the blinds with aa one time and he calls with a suited connector.

"But no, you do not want made two pair continuing here..."
Not gonna bother with this, respectfully.
Ironically, your flop play has started growing on me precisely because I don't think a whale is getting away with two pair on the turn if you go huge on the flop. In other words, I like your flop play because I think its setting up to get the max from 2p type hands from a whale.

There's not that much to unpack here, honestly. The only real mistake in the hand is the preflop minclick (I'd go bigger if you really just wanna be in hands with this guy, or fold. K7hh is a snap fold.) The flop value bet, unlike what others here have said, can't really be hated on from an exploitative standpoint IMO. It's definitely out of line with theory, and thats probably what they're complaining about.

Another point to your credit -- anyone who says they are folding this (or even suggests not shipping flop vs a weak player) is either lying or a losing player (in this spot, at least.) You're ahead! It's free ev! You are getting stationed by a set, every worse flush, maybe even an overpair with fd for all I know!

But why on earth are you telling them that "ok let's take your route, its getting all in anyways so it doesnt matter"? What are you talking about, man? I feel like I'd be doing you a disservice by explaining why this is a horrible way to think about the game.

You played this hand pretty well, but I think your reasons for making the plays you did are pretty bad.

Gonna give you some advice, and this is incredibly meta -- listen to the critics, man. All the good players I know don't have an ego when learning the game.
(Of course, if you have the propensity to listen to my advice, being the advice of a critic, then you'd probably not be posting this hh.)

Also fwiw, min clicking back pre OOP with K9hh is probably one of the worst plays I’ve ever read about at a poker table.

No need to be so harsh. I get where you're coming from, but cmon man.

But yeah man I don't know what's going on, but (I do not mean this inflammatorily) I suggest watching Doug Polk hand breakdowns. He's the new age wizard that makes hands funny and enjoyable, and while it may br hard to listen to us it should be easier to listen to him.

Not claiming I'm a great player btw. Far from it.

 

[Ditto]

Just call and look for the board to pair to give you outs to fold.

But seriously, I'm not getting away from this either. GG, rebuy!

I would've went home broke as well. We had a game of PLO Friday night, 3 clubs on the flop and I have the K9 club so I bet pot and got reraised by A10 clubs.