I think I'm out, guys (Casino Cancun drama advice requested) (4 Viewers)

Who's chips are these?

  • The chips are yours. Keep them and move on.

    Votes: 158 82.7%

  • The chips are davin's, send them to him.

    Votes: 33 17.3%
  • Total voters
    191
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The legal thing and "right" thing are likely different. Don't know much about or want to get into the legal part of it. Fortunately, Luv is more concerned with the "right" thing, which is subjective, but we can work for the right thing.

The physical evidence suggests strongly these were part of Davin's original purchase, if he was the sole purchaser of all the chips. So, they were/are (in the spirit of fair and "right", not necessarily legally) his. Again, doesn't mean Luv is obligated to compensate him, but he wants to do right.

So, if I were either of these 2, I'd try to agree on a deal/compromise.

It seems Davin's group is out $1000 suggesting that's what was paid for them? I know that's not what they could sell for, but what he paid. Could sell 2-3x that?

So, I'd say we each eat 50% of that. Davin could offer (sort of as a finders fee and grateful to get some recoup of the loss), "considering these are chips I bought, mine, let's act like I have them, but I'd be willing to sell them to you at 50% what I paid. $500 for the whole set and you keep a great set at possibly 25% what you'd pay on the market."

Luv may or may not have that money, and could decide to counter or agree. Does he want to go from paying $50 to $500? No, but he wants to do the right thing and gets a great set at a phenomenal price. I think anyone here here would pay $500 for that set.

Davin may hate that, because he's still out $500, but could see it as getting half his loss back instead of nothing.

You know it's a good compromise when both parties walk away unhappy.
 
Or could do like Solomon in the Bible and threaten to dump all the chips in the ocean and whoever volunteers first to surrender the chips to the other just for the sake of preserving the precious chippies gets to keep them (y) :thumbsup:
 
BGinGA said:
Okay, let me see if I have this straight:

The following appear to be actual facts that can be supported with evidence:
  • Davin purchased roughly 11,000 Cancun chips, for an undisclosed price, from an undisclosed overseas seller
  • One of the boxes containing 1,000 chips was never delivered to Davin.
  • Davin has been deceptive and less than honest about several facets regarding these chips. He has also failed to answer whether or not he was reimbursed by the seller for the missing chips.
  • Tanner spotted an eBay BIN ad and purchased 900 Cancun chips, which he now has in his possession.
  • Legally, Tanner is not obligated to do anything with the chips, unless requested by authorities to return them.
However, claiming that the chips purchased by Tanner were stolen is NOT factual, is not supported by any evidence, and alternate explanations abound. Until proven otherwise, the nature of how the chips ended up on eBay is at this point unknown.

Although the chips Tanner purchased appear to be from Davin's missing box shipment, there is no concrete proof that it is actually so. However, circumstantial evidence (much supplied by Davin) indicates that 900 of the missing 1000 chips are likely now in Tanner's possession. The whereabouts of the other 100 chips is unknown.

So how to proceed? For starters, the fact that Tanner has these chips has nothing to do with Davin directly. The person with whom Tanner has a potential moral obligation is the original seller, not Davin. Until delivered, the chips belong to the seller. If the seller had insurance on the package and has since been reimbursed, then it's on that seller to make Davin whole, not Tanner. If no insurance was purchased, that's on the seller -- he took a risk that the shipment would get delivered, and lost his wager. Same thing if he was misleading in his assessment of the package value, and was reimbursed for a smaller sum than they were actually worth.

If there is an open investigation regarding the missing package -- something only the original seller would know, not Davin except via second-hand knowlege -- then there are both serious legal and moral issues involved. Possible mail fraud/theft or hanky-panky at Customs, etc. Smart move is to tread lightly here, and cooperate fully.

Personally, I would want to know the following from Tanner's perspective, before I did anything at all.
  • The original seller and his/her contact information, so that the items below could be verified:
  • The actual cost of the missing package contents (1000 chips), both per-chip cost and shipping/insurance cost.
  • Was that cost actually paid by Davin, and if so, was any of that cost reimbursed to him when the package went missing?
  • Is there an open investigation of the missing package? Have any costs reimbursed to the seller by the shipping company?
Not that I don't trust Davin, but until he receives the package, the person-of-interest here is the original seller, and that's where I'd go to determine the applicable facts. Any ongoing investigation of the missing package is being communicated directly to him, not Davin. And if Tanner suspects that the chips he has in his possession may be from the missing package, it would be his moral obligation to inform/question the original seller and/or any authorities investigating the missing package whereabouts. If stolen, they will want to contact the eBay seller that sold the chips to Tanner as part of their investigation. If insurance has been paid on a missing package claim, they may want the chips returned to the original seller (and insurance money returned). It all depends on whether or not there is an investigation, and where that investigation has or may lead. And if it turns out the chips were legally released (even if erroneous) into the wild by Customs, then they belong to Tanner, end-of-story. Any reimbursement to the original seller would have to come from Customs, not Tanner. Again, none of this has anything directly to do with Davin, who should be looking to the original seller for compensation.

Tanner, I would advise that you contact the original seller and find out the official status of the missing shipment. Any other action would be fiscally irresponsible imo.

Davin, I would advise that you be a little more forthcoming with truthful information that could help resolve this issue for all parties. Pretty disappointed in what I've read from you in this thread so far.


Imo, it's way too premature to be discussing what to do with the chips or any related financial transactions. Contact the seller first, and if necessary, the authorities.
Click to expand...
Awesome explanation, I’ve laid the facts, I’ve contacted my friend and also showed him all the info, he will handle this as he has put out multiple searches with his post office.
Simply I told tanner you do what your heart tells you , I never intended to bully anyone just state the fact that the missing chips did show up. Just remember there was no insurance no insurance was paid out, no explanation of the whereabouts was told to neither me or the sender, we both contCted usps on my end and israelpost on his end as well as them looking into it with customs and the only explanation to both of us was the box was missing. I’ll end it at that
No where in the messages did it ever show that I demanded him to send me those chips back. NEVER!!!!
 
EE2D5C8E-F38B-4BD1-8B35-5232FADF6904.jpeg
 
davin said:
Simply I told tanner you do what your heart tells you
Click to expand...

Not that it's relevant to the resolution but I feel that this^^, as well as the "As a Pastor" comment are kinda passive-aggressively preying (no pun intended) on the vulnerabilities of his faith. Often people of faith can be bilked out of $ by having them think what they're doing is in line with their spiritual beliefs (Thank you Jim and Tammy).

Also, the green marker. If the green marker was put on by the seller to Davin, then it proves it's from his lot. The fact that Luv's chips are from Davin's lot does not obligate him morally or legally to give these to Davin. Further to that is there evidence that the seller put the green marker on these boxes? If there isn't (as it could easily have been placed on by the casino) then green marker needs to stop being used as the smoking gun that it's being presented as, and should be inadmissible as evidence.

I would not under any circumstances send Davin the chips or money as a resolution to this! Go with the guidance provided in the BG's post!
 
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davin said:
either way you want to look at it @luv2breformed you hold stollen product what people call HOT!!!!
Click to expand...

@davin There are so many possible scenarios for where the eBay seller could have obtained those chips, that I think you can’t jump to this conclusion. And, calling out another member in this manner, without proof, is way out of line.
 
DoubleEagle said:
Seems clear to me these were not “lost in the mail” rather they were stolen in customs.
Click to expand...

Just to offer another possibility, if this is the same box of chips, what if they got stuck in customs because they were not shipped correctly? What if the customs office, after 6 months, disposed of the box legally because the customs issue was not resolved? No one knows what actually happened - and without proof there should be no accusations nor jumping to conclusions that these are stolen property.
 
Thank you everyone (and I do mean EVERYONE @pltrgyst included :)) for your awesome feedback! I slept much better last night knowing that this issue was in the hands of the community as a whole. There has been a ton of great advice in this thread and also many PM's that I REALLY appreciate. I'll give a few of my thoughts before I put the finishing touches on today's sermon.

1. I am NOT going to do anything rash.

2. I agree that the "right" thing and the "legal" thing are not always commensurate, and likely not in this situation either. I am concerned with the "right" thing here. (Although I certainly don't want to do anything illegal! :))

3. While some have VERY strong opinions as to what the "right" thing is in this situation, it is sure a bit more foggy to me, but I'm still working through it.

4. The $1.88/chip price is what davin quoted me. Given some of the other information that has surfaced in this thread, I'm not willing to just take his word on that. Sorry =/

BGinGA said:
Okay, let me see if I have this straight:

Personally, I would want to know the following from Tanner's perspective, before I did anything at all.
  • The original seller and his/her contact information, so that the items below could be verified:
  • The actual cost of the missing package contents (1000 chips), both per-chip cost and shipping/insurance cost.
  • Was that cost actually paid by Davin, and if so, was any of that cost reimbursed to him when the package went missing?
  • Is there an open investigation of the missing package? Have any costs reimbursed to the seller by the shipping company?

Tanner, I would advise that you contact the original seller and find out the official status of the missing shipment. Any other action would be fiscally irresponsible imo.
Click to expand...
This post was immensely helpful and summarizes a lot of the situation. I'm glad to see that davin ALSO thought so, it means we have some common ground here. To answer the questions:

1. I have contacted the original eBay seller of my chips and asked them to provide any information they have about them. As for the seller in davin's transaction, I don't know anything about that.

2. davin has been asked repeatedly in ths thread by @allforcharity and others to provide this information. He hasn't, AND again I will reiterate that I'm at this point not willing to simply take his word on this stuff.

3. Same as #2, above

4. davin told me that there was an open investigation, I believe he even said in this thread that if you check the tracking number on the package it still shows "pending" or something like that.

When you advise me to contact the original seller, do you mean the seller I purchased from, or do you mean davin's seller? If the former, I have done that and will do everything in my power to track down information from my end. If the latter, I would need the information from davin for that person's contact info.

Also, while I really appreciate all of the comments for a 50/50 resolution, I am actually leaning away from that direction right now. Don't get me wrong, I see the logic in it, and there is a certain aspect to it that is quite appealing. However, it strikes me as a sort of easy way out. IF I determined that the "right" thing in this situation is that these are davin's chips, THEN I wouldn't be comfortable keeping half or even a couple of racks of them. IF I determined that the "right" thing in this situation is that they are my chips, THEN I would feel no obligation to send him any of them. I'm very much leaning towards and "all or nothing" type solution on these ATM.

So currently, I am waiting to hear back from the seller that sold me these chips (I've already provided their information to davin, although I don't know what he did with it, I need to do my own due diligance), AND I will chase down any leads that they provide.

Finally, while none of this will make it into today's sermon, I DO teach a bi-weekly study on ethics and morality (no joke), and this would be a fantastic case study for that. In addition, if I do a lot of prep for such a study, I might be able to clarify my own thoughts and understanding of the matter.

Thanks, again guys. I know that with community's help we'll come to the "right" resolution.
 
pltrgyst said:
@luv2breformed: Dude, I think your conduct has been pathetic and despicable, from the point of your initial reluctance to reveal your seller's information onward. Hell, any decent person would have been feeling guilty in the first place about taking advantage of the seller by paying $50 for $2K+ worth of chips. But your unrestrained avarice blinded you to the potential dangers of such a buy, and your reluctance to accept the evidence and lip service to "doing the right thing" reveal you to be awfully weak in the ethics and morals departments.
Click to expand...

Is this a JOKE? Are you really attacking this member for being “greedy” for finding a deal on chips and taking advantage? If so, does your attitude extend to ALL OF THE MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM who have ever sold something for more than what they paid?
 
First of all let me go on record to state that I think this whole thread was unnecessary. Neither did anything wrong except airing this out before the community to try and resolve. This only causes friction in the community and is not productive. Yes many posts were made but here is another case of "driving a wedge" in the community. Unfortunately in these posts, since there are many different ways people feel about this it always results to some kind of name calling.

My opinion is either settle this or not and chalk it up for experience. I do not think that @luv2breformed is responsible and came across a great deal. I do feel the "lost chips" refund lies in the hands of the original seller that sold to @davin. If they both agreed and chose to mis-state the contents and value to customs then that is on them and again it is a discussion between @davin and the original seller.

I do not get how so many people "covet" these little pieces of "Freaking" clay. There is much more to life than owning these and fighting over them or even trying to profit from them.

Yes I enjoy collecting these items but I would not let it get in the way of my life. Let's all just stop and get on with collecting. Let these two figure out the best thing to do between them. All we are doing is taking the limited facts and truths and trying to form an opinion. We all know what they say about opinions!!!

If everyone is going to continue with this then try and be positive. I am tired of the bashing that everyone does when these types of threads come out.

Keep on Chipping!

David
 
David O said:
First of all let me go on record to state that I think this whole thread was unnecessary. Neither did anything wrong except airing this out before the community to try and resolve. This only causes friction in the community and is not productive. Yes many posts were made but here is another case of "driving a wedge" in the community. Unfortunately in these posts, since there are many different ways people feel about this it always results to some kind of name calling.

My opinion is either settle this or not and chalk it up for experience. I do not think that @luv2breformed is responsible and came across a great deal. I do feel the "lost chips" refund lies in the hands of the original seller that sold to @davin. If they both agreed and chose to mis-state the contents and value to customs then that is on them and again it is a discussion between @davin and the original seller.

I do not get how so many people "covet" these little pieces of "Freaking" clay. There is much more to life than owning these and fighting over them or even trying to profit from them.

Yes I enjoy collecting these items but I would not let it get in the way of my life. Let's all just stop and get on with collecting. Let these two figure out the best thing to do between them. All we are doing is taking the limited facts and truths and trying to form an opinion. We all know what they say about opinions!!!

If everyone is going to continue with this then try and be positive. I am tired of the bashing that everyone does when these types of threads come out.

Keep on Chipping!

David
Click to expand...
David, I appreciate this feedback, and it is ENTIRELY my fault for airing this out. However, I did it because I was very confused in my PM's to try and sort through it and also thought that davin was speaking for more than just himself, but the community at large. I'm new here and he is a very respected member. I do NOT want to propagate division, far from it, but I DO want to get some advice on how to proceed, and people have been providing that. For that, i'm grateful.
 
Adding my tiny bit of info:
Not all chips from this casino were bought by davin, and others made it out via different methods.

——

[IMG]https://www.pokerchipforum.com/data/avatars/m/3/3463.jpg?1527997292[/IMG]
davin
Flush
Nov 10, 2018
Not all I’m sure there’s thousands out in the wild, also there’s chipcos out there too, I just purchased chips that a friend had available, not sure where he got them or when but I’m pretty sure the chips were auctioned off per what the chip guide shows, there was no 100’s 500’s or snappers however they are shown in chipguide, also I’ve seen photos of the black hundos in stacks before but never got any

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[IMG]https://www.pokerchipforum.com/data/avatars/m/3/3463.jpg?1527997292[/IMG]
davin
Flush
Nov 10, 2018
Recently a European member posted up 300 chips that I never did sell him so who knows where he got them, also another thread on here showed a video of a guy that had a 1000 chip Cancun set that was never got from me either,

——

To me, using the presence of green sharpie as the definitive proof that they are the chips davin purchased may be a stretch. Any individual at the casino may have marked all those casino’s boxes with green sharpie when counting their total inventory. That said, if a side by side comparison of the writing on each individual box that luv2 received can be made vs davin’s picture of the lost box, and that comparison shows they identically match the writing on all the missing boxes, that would be likely adequate to remove my reasonable doubt. I’ll look at the pictures on my monitor later, but for me the boxes need to be identical in green sharpie writing, not just similar in handwriting style and the use of green sharpie. $0.02

@luv2breformed :
Can you please post a picture of the green sharpie writing on all your boxes? If it is *identical* on them, it seems that would show the chips are from davin’s lost box.

Edit: found the picture of the box that luv2 received.
@davin : do you have a pic of all your boxes from the lost package? I’m guessing it’s just the two boxes you have shown in the page 7 post? Clearly the same person wrote on all of them, just trying to determine whether they are identical vs similar.
 
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inca911 said:
Adding my tiny bit of info:
Not all chips from this casino were bought by davin, and others made it out via different methods.

——

[IMG]https://www.pokerchipforum.com/data/avatars/m/3/3463.jpg?1527997292[/IMG]
davin
Flush
Nov 10, 2018
Not all I’m sure there’s thousands out in the wild, also there’s chipcos out there too, I just purchased chips that a friend had available, not sure where he got them or when but I’m pretty sure the chips were auctioned off per what the chip guide shows, there was no 100’s 500’s or snappers however they are shown in chipguide, also I’ve seen photos of the black hundos in stacks before but never got any

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[IMG]https://www.pokerchipforum.com/data/avatars/m/3/3463.jpg?1527997292[/IMG]
davin
Flush
Nov 10, 2018
Recently a European member posted up 300 chips that I never did sell him so who knows where he got them, also another thread on here showed a video of a guy that had a 1000 chip Cancun set that was never got from me either,

——

To me, using the presence of green sharpie as the definitive proof that they are the chips davin purchased may be a stretch. Any individual at the casino may have marked all those casino’s boxes with green sharpie when counting their total inventory. That said, if a side by side comparison of the writing on each individual box that luv2 received can be made vs davin’s picture of the lost box, and that comparison shows they identically match the writing on all the missing boxes, that would be likely adequate to remove my reasonable doubt. I’ll look at the pictures on my monitor later, but for me the boxes need to be identical in green sharpie writing, not just similar in handwriting style and the use of green sharpie. $0.02

@luv2breformed :
Can you please post a picture of the green sharpie writing on all your boxes? If it is *identical* on them, it seems that would show the chips are from davin’s lost box.
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This photo shows the boxes. Mine are on top, davin's on the bottom. There's been quite a lot of discussion surrounding the writing and boxes thus far. I grant that there is quite a bit of similarity.
1542550590626.png


EDIT: See page 6 also, davin has posted some extensive comparison photos.
 
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The Page 6 photo shows identical writing to me, not just the same writer. If luv2 agrees with that assessment, then the chips are from davin’s lost box, and I would send them to him. If luv2 disagrees, then we are at an impasse. And everyone knows what must be done if we are at an impasse....

 
David O said:
First of all let me go on record to state that I think this whole thread was unnecessary. Neither did anything wrong except airing this out before the community to try and resolve.
Click to expand...

I am not going to be to harsh toward @luv2breformed for trying to crowdsource a resolution here when he was uncertain about the private conversation.

I think even at the price of division, the community should value openness when it comes to dealing with the pitfalls associated with online dealing.

Secondly, in the very first post, assuming @luv2breformed 's screenshots are representative, it's @davin that first suggests (some may say threaten) to take the conversation public.

I think @luv2breformed assumed he was right and his opening of the conversation to the community may have been a reasonable calculation that if it's getting out one way or another he might as well lead.

I have refrained from voting, even after reviewing all 8 pages. If I have a criticism of this post, I am not sure framing this as a poll was proper unless the best arbitration solution was to let the community vote on it.

I still think there is certain information missing. Threads like this are valuable so long as the intent is for the community to help. It has shown value in organizing what is known and what is unknown (as @BGinGA 's post did).

Hopefully this thread serves to provide a more objective view of what is fact and feeling and maybe that can be the basis of some good will between the parties to reach a resolution.
 
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Wow, long read. Read every post.

I didn't want to post, because I think both people are good people that got into a bad situation through no fault of their own. I don't want to pick "sides".

But I had to, to try and help put Luv's soul to rest. That is why he posted this thread to rest ease. It's my mission in life to try to make people happy.

I hate it for Davin, but in all of this, Luv has appeared to be 100% truthful and forthcoming in all his remarks. Davin dove into shady territory multiple times with less than truthful responses and some outright deception to move chips.

While the 5s look similar, I tend to think they are not the same. The bottom of the 5 in one pic looks too be darker all the way across the bottom swoop of the 5, while the other bos shows it is darker only at the top of the bottom swoop. It's not uncommon for a casino to write numbers on the boxes for inventory. Hell, I do it, and I don't have hundreds of boxes. If the writer was bending over, marking the last 2 boxes, the sharpie could have different pressures, creating different levels of darknesses on the swoop. It could be lighting from the bubble-wrap, but I'm inclined to think not.

Keep the chips. Moreover, use them knowing that you did the right thing by trying your best to do the right thing. It is a bad situation. You're not at fault, and you appear to be honest to the core. And welcome to the community.
 
Geremie said:
I think one more thing is missing here. I think @davin needs to also do what’s right and declare the proper value of the imported chips to US Customs. Lying to the US government on the value of imports is morally/ethically/legally wrong.
Click to expand...
While I agree with this completely, In Davin's defence our government lies to us, it's only fitting to lie back occasionally. :ninja:
 
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