Is Ratholing Something That is Common in Online Home Poker? (2 Viewers)

[upNdown]

Just going from the home games I play in. We probably don't take it as seriously as some on here and a lot of its about socialising for us including online so rather people can come back at some point, can see if game is being taken more seriously side too though.

I guess in some ways, it’s more about taking the game LESS seriously. Or maybe taking the money less seriously, but giving more respect to the game itself.

If I’m playing blackjack in a casino, against the house, yeah, if I’m ahead, I’ll pocket some cash. Because I’m there to win the casino’s money. That’s the goal - take money from the casino, and make it mine.

When I’m playing a home game with friends, my goal is not to take the other people’s money. My goal is to win at cards. And yeah, in poker, we keep score with cash. So I know it sounds like a subtle distinction (or maybe even nonsense) but taking money out of the other players’ pockets is not my goal, in a home game situation. It’s a by-product of winning, for sure. But I’m there to play cards, not hit and run.

 

[Dodger]

 

[LeLe]

No, Never should it be ever allow in Poker Cash Game

I will prob explain to the guy that how unethical that is as he may be a very casual poker player that just never heard of it before and give him the benefit of the doubt

real casinos don't do that

Real Casino don't allow taking money off the table and the only time they allow that is to pay for tipping or good & services

 

[sambeckett89]

100% should never happen in a casino and I basically only play with people that would never do it in home games. But I guess it would depend on what kind of atmosphere you want for the game? The poker streamer game that happened a few days ago at Hustler had an instance where one of the players was so massively up and I guess they couldn't get chips so was loaning other players from their stack (essentially going south) and none of the pros at the table had an issue, which I guess is more telling as they were basically all stuck. Being a bit flexible with the rules can be good for improving the mood of the game, just so long as you know players aren't trying to angle, which the guy in the OP clearly was.

tl;dr. OP was right, but don't make home games into casino games unless you have to

 

[JMC9389]

Nope, that player wouldn't get invited back.

 

[BearMetal]

I've never had to ban anyone before, and I certainly wouldn't ban without a warning unless it was egregious (like cheating) ... so for the player who tried to rathole, they have essentially been warned and now I know to watch them. Luckily they have to play within the constraints of software and it would be very hard for them to get one past me.

Also, all ring games updated to 6 hours of rat-holiness ...

 

[upNdown]

100% should never happen in a casino and I basically only play with people that would never do it in home games. But I guess it would depend on what kind of atmosphere you want for the game? The poker streamer game that happened a few days ago at Hustler had an instance where one of the players was so massively up and I guess they couldn't get chips so was loaning other players from their stack (essentially going south) and none of the pros at the table had an issue, which I guess is more telling as they were basically all stuck. Being a bit flexible with the rules can be good for improving the mood of the game, just so long as you know players aren't trying to angle, which the guy in the OP clearly was.

tl;dr. OP was right, but don't make home games into casino games unless you have to

I was listening to Berkey’s podcast about that. They said it later came out that Hustler had apparently run out of chips. It seems hard to believe, but there were A LOT of chips on that table, apparently the biggest chip they have is a $5k and presumably guys like Garret have a lot of those stashed away in their boxes.
Funny stuff.

 

[dickthebaker]

Just a heads up in case you didnt know, you can set a rathole timer in mavens.

 

[BearMetal]

Just a heads up in case you didnt know, you can set a rathole timer in mavens.

Yup; it was set to 90 minutes, which is what caught this problem to begin with. I've bumped it to 6 hours.

 

[dickthebaker]

Ahhh I understand now. 6hrs may be extreme but depends on your action at the tables, if its just in the evening then that pretty much limits rathole for the night which im onboard with. If games run 24/7 maybe a 3hr rathole better.

 

[BearMetal]

Ahhh I understand now. 6hrs may be extreme but depends on your action at the tables, if its just in the evening then that pretty much limits rathole for the night which im onboard with. If games run 24/7 maybe a 3hr rathole better.

My tables are online 24/7, but sessions are always between 9PM and 2AM EDT, so 6 hours covers a single session.

 

[Highli99]

I was listening to Berkey’s podcast about that. They said it later came out that Hustler had apparently run out of chips. It seems hard to believe, but there were A LOT of chips on that table, apparently the biggest chip they have is a $5k and presumably guys like Garret have a lot of those stashed away in their boxes.
Funny stuff.

I bet Raver is hoarding all the $5ks. Or maybe Ronnie. DGAF might one or two, but probably not.

 

[CrazyEddie]

My question for all of you... am I wrong? Is ratholing something I should allow players to for any logical reason? I can't see it. The mere thought of doing such a thing makes me want to puke.

Most experienced players think ratholing is objectionable, so much so that they have visceral reactions against it, much as you do. Most novice players have never heard of the concept and don't see anything wrong with it.

My own view is that the common dislike of ratholing is misguided, and that people who run home games should have no reason to forbid it. The practice of banning ratholing favors casinos and favors strong players at the expense of weak players. It also runs contrary to some fundamental principles that underly poker. Mine is, however, very much a minority opinion.

Everyone of course can and should run their own games as they please.

Is ratholing something I should allow players to for any logical reason?

If you're asking out of genuine curiosity rather than merely seeking validation, you might be interested in some of my previous comments regarding this very question:

Letting people take money off the table ("ratholing") is universally derided, but it shouldn't be. There are three different parties to consider, and all three dislike ratholing, which is why it's usually not allowed. The first party is the casino. Casinos want as much money in play as possible because that increases their profits. The second party is the winning players. They want as much money in play as possible because that increases their profits as well. The third party is the losing players. Because these players are degenerate gamblers and are mathematically illiterate, they want a chance to "win their money back". In truth, these people shouldn't be sitting at the table at all, but luckily for the rest of us they sit anyway and fund our hobby.

Accordingly, casinos forbid ratholing and both types of players applaud, both the smart and the stupid.

From a sportsman's perspective (rather than a professional's perspective or a degenerate's perspective) there's absolutely nothing wrong with ratholing. Deciding how much money to risk is an important part of wagering, and every player should have every opportunity at the start of every hand to decide how much money they are willing to risk at that point in time. Cries of "you have to give me a chance to win my money back" are fundamentally misguided; the first rule of poker that anyone should learn is that money ceases to be yours as soon as it goes in the pot. Money in someone else's stack belongs to them; you have no claim over it, and not a single person at the table owes you anything, let alone the obligation that they keep risking as much as you would like them to.

This, needless to say, is a controversial opinion, but I will die on that hill.

The prohibition against ratholing came about because casinos want everyone to keep playing as long as possible. It's since been adopted by home games because players at home model correct behavior based on casino rules. I understand the impulse to denigrate ratholing, I just think it's misguided.

 

[BearMetal]

@CrazyEddie I really appreciate your insight especially because it goes against the trend of what most people have posted here. It's always great to get the other side of the equation to consider all your options.

Just for my own completeness, I never expected my home game to be run like a casino. That wasn't its intent. So if we forget that party then we're left with both the winning and the losing players. In either case, there are players who are sitting at a table who are there to be social, but of course try to win money.

I think when a player takes money off the table and then immediately continues to play with the minimum buy-in, they're saying that they're not there to be a part of the game. They are there strictly to take people's money.

I understand that deciding how much to risk is all part of the game. After all, that's why you are allowed to buy in for a minimum when other players can buy in for a maximum. And I completely understand that just because you won a huge hand doesn't mean that that's what you want to wager. This is where people would argue that's what folding is for... But I think it's a bit more complex than that.

But again, I value your opinion and I can see your point of view. Personally, I would never think of doing it and since it's my home game, it goes against the spirit. So I guess that's why I started this thread... to get the opinions of all the players here on PCF. It was hard for me to understand your point of view until I read through your quotes.

 

[dickthebaker]

Most experienced players think ratholing is objectionable, so much so that they have visceral reactions against it, much as you do. Most novice players have never heard of the concept and don't see anything wrong with it.

I think the main objection is it takes $ out of the game. Especially if someone is stuck a good amount it lowers their chances to win $ back. bad for most games I think

 

[BearMetal]

I think the main objection is it takes $ out of the game. Especially if someone is stuck a good amount it lowers their chances to win $ back. bad for most games I think

I think @CrazyEddie's argument would be that playing tight after winning a good hand also prevents them from winning their money back.

I suppose that taking money off the table is a strategy, albeit a nasty one IMO

 

[dickthebaker]

I suppose that taking money off the table is a strategy, albeit a nasty one IMO

I would say its a borderline angle. If you want to play, you play with all the chips youve won

 

[upNdown]

Most experienced players think ratholing is objectionable, so much so that they have visceral reactions against it, much as you do. Most novice players have never heard of the concept and don't see anything wrong with it.

My own view is that the common dislike of ratholing is misguided, and that people who run home games should have no reason to forbid it. The practice of banning ratholing favors casinos and favors strong players at the expense of weak players. It also runs contrary to some fundamental principles that underly poker. Mine is, however, very much a minority opinion.

Everyone of course can and should run their own games as they please.



If you're asking out of genuine curiosity rather than merely seeking validation, you might be interested in some of my previous comments regarding this very question:

Berkey was saying a similar thing - that it’s mostly a casino thing, because they want more money in the table, to rake. I wonder if this is a misconception.
If, at a $1/2 table, the casino is raking $6 out of every pot, how the hell could it matter if one guy with an $800 stack pulls half of it off the table? They’re still taking $6 per hand. (And actually, if anything, bigger stacks might encourage longer hands with bigger pots and more tanking, which actually results in less rake.)
Really the only way the casino is losing money is if there are empty seats. But casinos are good at filling seats and knowing how many tables to have open. (And, FWIW, they actually make more money at short handed tables, unless it gets real short and that reduce the rake. Of course they want full tables, but I’m just saying.)

I’m just having a hard time understanding why the casino should care about ratholing. The only think I can come up with that makes sense is that more money on the tables is good advertising.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Berkey was saying a similar thing - that it’s mostly a casino thing, because they want more money in the table, to rake. I wonder if this is a misconception.
If, at a $1/2 table, the casino is raking $6 out of every pot, how the hell could it matter if one guy with an $800 stack pulls half of it off the table? They’re still taking $6 per hand. (And actually, if anything, bigger stacks might encourage longer hands with bigger pots and more tanking, which actually results in less rake.)
Really the only way the casino is losing money is if there are empty seats. But casinos are good at filling seats and knowing how many tables to have open. (And, FWIW, they actually make more money at short handed tables, unless it gets real short and that reduce the rake. Of course they want full tables, but I’m just saying.)

I’m just having a hard time understanding why the casino should care about ratholing. The only think I can come up with that makes sense is that more money on the tables is good advertising.

Those are fair points. I might speculate that the prohibition against ratholing encourages people to stay in their seats longer, which definitely increases the casino's profits.

 

[BearMetal]

I’m just having a hard time understanding why the casino should care about ratholing. The only think I can come up with that makes sense is that more money on the tables is good advertising.

That's true; it's a $6 rake whether or not a player has removed $400 off of the table. My gut says that it might be because it would piss other players off and they would leave and that would kill the action? I mean, I know if I saw that, I would get up and walk away.

 

[Shaggy]

I think some novice poker players don't differentiate poker from other pit casino games. One of my players enjoys playing "cards"... you know, poker, blackjack, whatever.

In pit games, it is clearly acceptable to rathole chips... casinos might frown upon it because they want to monitor your action, but it is not such an offense as it is in a poker cash game.

Perhaps this player hasn't played much/any casino poker and his "they don't have that rule in casinos" is based on his experience at the blackjack table.

 

[BearMetal]

I think some novice poker players don't differentiate poker from other pit casino games. One of my players enjoys playing "cards"... you know, poker, blackjack, whatever.

In pit games, it is clearly acceptable to rathole chips... casinos might frown upon it because they want to monitor your action, but it is not such an offense as it is in a poker cash game.

Perhaps this player hasn't played much/any casino poker and his "they don't have that rule in casinos" is based on his experience at the blackjack table.

A great hypothesis, but I know this dude plays at cash tables. I totally agree with you (and have even done it myself) where I take money off of blackjack tables just to prevent myself from doing something stupid). But that's different; that has no affect on the other players.

 

[Frogzilla]

We rathole live but haven’t figured it out online using pokerrrr2. Opposite experience of OP

 

[BearMetal]

We rathole live but haven’t figured it out online using pokerrrr2. Opposite experience of OP

So you win hands and then just take chips off the table? Have you ever been confronted over it? By either the casino or the players?

Not accusing or anything.. just curious.

 

[Frogzilla]

So you win hands and then just take chips off the table? Have you ever been confronted over it? By either the casino or the players?

Not accusing or anything.. just curious.

We do it at our home game and it’s accepted/encouraged, thought to be better for the game. Generally understood to be proper for won back losses, ie down 4 buyins, win em back, you can rathole to be only in for 1 or 2. Only in between hands obviously. We use markers for buyins and settle after so it’s not really possible to rathole profits, only pay back some of your markers.

I don’t do it anywhere else obviously, as it’s against the rules… but for those who have never allowed it, it might be worth considering

 

[BearMetal]

We do it at our home game and it’s accepted/encouraged, thought to be better for the game. Generally understood to be proper for won back losses, ie down 4 buyins, win em back, you can rathole to be only in for 1 or 2. Only in between hands obviously. We use markers for buyins and settle after so it’s not really possible to rathole profits, only pay back some of your markers.

I don’t do it anywhere else obviously, as it’s against the rules… but for those who have never allowed it, it might be worth considering

So if it's meant to be a way to win back losses, do you still allow it if I'm up the whole night and I just went a huge hand and then I want to take that money off the table? Or do you reserve it only for the case that you mentioned above?

So it's encouraged... That's very interesting. Have you ever had a player that questioned another player who did it and you needed to explain to them that it was your house rule?

 

[Frogzilla]

So if it's meant to be a way to win back losses, do you still allow it if I'm up the whole night and I just went a huge hand and then I want to take that money off the table? Or do you reserve it only for the case that you mentioned above?

So it's encouraged... That's very interesting. Have you ever had a player that questioned another player who did it and you needed to explain to them that it was your house rule?

i mean I guess if a player has to leave early or rebuy that could be ratholing profits but almost always it’s someone on a comeback

Nobody has ever questioned or had issue

I dunno if you caught any of the recent YouTube personality hustler stream, but botez was ratholing a lot there, it’s normal in some games

 

[BearMetal]

I dunno if you caught any of the recent YouTube personality hustler stream, but botez was ratholing a lot there, it’s normal in some games

Thanks for providing your own personal experience. It's very fascinating to hear the other side of the story.

No, I actually didn't. I usually only watch when Mariano or Krish (Or Poker Bunny) is playing . I will have to check it out though. If you have a link handy I'd appreciate it.

 

[upNdown]

I dunno if you caught any of the recent YouTube personality hustler stream, but botez was ratholing a lot there, it’s normal in some games

My impression is that people have been talking about her ratholing quite a bit, because its pretty much never normal.
I'm surprised to hear that you guys do it in your home game, because I've always thought this was one of those rules never gets ignored, even in casual home game settings, where other rules are relaxed.
I hope other people who have experience with this will chime in.

 

[Machine]

I was in a game where I was stuck and owed a friend at the table, as did another person. That person shoved X over to the mutual friend, no one said shit, and I like the guy and didn't want to be the villain but it's really not good for the game, and I also knew they wouldnt let me get away with it, so I shoved 2X over to the dude, the table blew up and before I could say anything, he pushed the other money back as well.

I love @CrazyEddie, often insightful, never dull and always positive /respectful, but I do disagree in this case, to help weaker players I put a cap on the front end (buyin) rather than let people take money off the table.

I do think a 2 / 3 hour window to cash and buy in is better for the game.