Is This Situation an Angle or Not? How Would You Deal with It? (2 Viewers)

[Jimulacrum]

He claimed that he went all-in knowing how much I had behind but didn't want to say anything to avoid giving off the strength/weakness of his hand.

Y'know, my mind glossed over this super-important fact on first read more than it should have.

Yes, this was an angle. I'd say it's perhaps a correctable angle, if you like the guy and think he maybe didn't understand why it's so wrong. He did, after all, tell you he knew. He didn't have to do that. Someone with a guilty mind about this probably would have lied.

You don't get to play out the action and then, if you lose, try to appeal it on the basis of something you knew going in.

 

[bergs]

It sounds like there had been a lot of rebuys at $75. For someone to build up a stack to $900. I’d be pretty annoyed if I thought the hand was $75 effective and it’s actually $200 and I realize mid hand. And I’d probably complain too. I don’t think I’d ask for my money back but you’d probably hear an earful for a while.

You don’t look at people’s stacks when you play?

I give him a break if you were waiting for chips and didn’t really loudly announce “$200 behind” but if the chips were all in front you and visible, fuck ‘em. Tell him to paayyy daaat maaan izzzzz moooooney.

 

[RagahRagah]

I don't have much to add, but an aside to the valid point of knowing how much is behind... sure, the rules should be clear. But how are you playing anything but bad poker if you aren't paying attention to your opponents' stacks at all times? So to me it's either he somehow was having a huge brain fart for not a moment but a significant PORTION of the game or he was angling, and based on his comment the latter seems much more likely, IMO. What is your perception of this player's skill? If you think he is a solid player I'd say it points you towards an even higher probability of angling.

 

[boltonguy]

So if your chips were visible on the table this is an angle for sure. I mean come on ...

 

[ThrowBack]

Even and small stakes peanuts games I have a real hard time letting anyone off of a bet. Whether or not they are a first time player or a long time player, five dollar or $5000, whatever the case may be a huge part of the integrity of the game is that while we may laugh, lie, intentionally tilt, bully, or engage in other ruthless behavior at the end of the day, a bet is a bet

In the words of KGB “ pay him, pay that man his money”

No sore losers

 

[JustinInMN]

There is fault on both sides here.

Here's the situation: We were playing towards the end of the night when the game usually plays much bigger. I had just lost an all-in and was down $275 for the night, so I decided to rebuy for $200. The announced buy-in for the game was $25-$75, but usually towards the end, we do match half-stack. However, I didn't announce that I was buying in for so much (the biggest stack at the table was about $900).

"Usually toward the end we do match half-stack" is a super vague statement, and I wouldn't call it a rule. Also ALL chips in transit should be announced before action on a hand. I think admitted you didn't announce opened the door to the complaint here. I would add to this rule some specific time frame (after 2 hours), and make an announcement at that point or at the very least with the first rebuy after that point.

In a hand against a regular player who's very particular about the rules, we ended up going all-in on the river ($135 effective on the river). I called off with 2nd pair, thinking he was bluffing, and it turned out I was right. At this point, he started making a big deal about me having $200 in chips, saying that I shouldn't have so much since the max buy-in was $75. He claimed that he went all-in knowing how much I had behind but didn't want to say anything to avoid giving off the strength/weakness of his hand.

I don't buy the excuse. He could have easily asked "how much are you playing" without compromising his hand. You also had all the chips in front of you at the time of the final action.

I am really torn, so I won't hate that you settled on letting him take $100 back. And I hope this is a lesson on improving your procedures, but at the same time, you had the chips in front of you and he his excuse doesn't hold water, I wouldn't have hated it if you held it to him either.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I think admitted you didn't announce opened the door to the complaint here.

This sentence made me wonder when, exactly, Villain learned that Hero had 200 in his stack.

The angle gets worse by degrees the earlier he knew. Not clear from the OP how many hands had elapsed since the rebuy, but if this guy noticed the 200 immediately and then stayed quiet for multiple hands, deliberately planning to use it this way … that's pretty disgusting.

 

[JustinInMN]

This sentence made me wonder when, exactly, Villain learned that Hero had 200 in his stack.

The angle gets worse by degrees the earlier he knew. Not clear from the OP how many hands had elapsed since the rebuy, but if this guy noticed the 200 immediately and then stayed quiet for multiple hands, deliberately planning to use it this way … that's pretty disgusting.

That's a great point, I was under the impression is was the hand right before. If it were on any previous hand, than screw this guy. He has to pay you.

 

[DrStrange]

I have problems with both Hero and Villain, though Hero's offence is far more serious assuming I properly understood the situation.

As I read the original post, Hero is host and decides to rebuy for himself way more than the stated buy-in limits. Unannounced. This is not angle shooting, it is outright cheating in my book. If Hero doesn't care for his own house rules, he should change them publicly and before the game starts.

Villain's actions are dubious. There is every chance that villain is playing "heads I win $200, tails I pay off $75". But hero's cheating opened the door for this play. Hero can't have more than $75 per the house rules. What is Villain to make of all those chips in front of Hero? Is the hero/host in the middle of selling more chips? Has someone cashed out and the host hasn't racked up those chips? Is Hero in the middle of some chip bank clean up? < I am aware that villain isn't likely to be so clueless. >

If I am sitting at the table, I think the resolution is "reasonable". The host was breaking the rules, got caught, and had to take back the illegal part of his buy-in. I am not saying Hero's action at the time of the buy-in was reasonable. But I could give him a sliver of doubt about the acceptability of the situation.

Hosts need to be dedicated to defending their house rules. Changes in the stakes of the game, buy-in rules, cash out rules, betting formats or betting limits shouldn't change in the middle of the game.

A Host also needs to be crystal clear in cases where banking responsibilities might clash with Hero's interests. Rebuys need to be clearly announced, prior to the start of the hand. Chips coming in / going out while hands are in progress are loose cannons - There shouldn't be any question about what chips are in Hero's stack vs. chips in transit to/from the bank.

If Host wants to play "match 1/2 the big stack after ten o'clock" but plays $25 - $75 before ten o'clock", then say so when setting up the game.

Don't rebuy in stealth mode for your own account.

Don't assume everyone knows these secret rules. Don't assume everyone agrees with them either even if they don't speak up.

Changing the buy-in rules mid game harms the weakest players and benefits the better players.

Hero has no one to blame besides himself. Villain was probably taking advantage of hero's indiscretion but there is only one person responsible for the situation.

My $0.02 -=- DrStrange

 

[JustinInMN]

As I read the original post, Hero is host and decides to rebuy for himself way more than the stated buy-in limits. Unannounced. This is not angle shooting, it is outright cheating in my book. If Hero doesn't care for his own house rules, he should change them publicly and before the game starts.

I do not think this is exactly what happened. The way I read the OP the custom is to allow 1/2 stack match at some juncture at every game, so I don't think buying in for 200 itself is a neferarious act. (Thiugh I have criticized the host already for not being being specific enough with this rule.)

But every game I have played, announcing the amount of any chips coming to the table is a standard practice, one the host has admitted overlooking and now understands the reason why.

Here is where I am. If the incident was the first hand after the rebuy, the resolution is reasonable. If it's any longer than that the host let villian shoot an angle here.

 

[upNdown]

I have problems with both Hero and Villain, though Hero's offence is far more serious assuming I properly understood the situation.

As I read the original post, Hero is host and decides to rebuy for himself way more than the stated buy-in limits. Unannounced. This is not angle shooting, it is outright cheating in my book. If Hero doesn't care for his own house rules, he should change them publicly and before the game starts.

Villain's actions are dubious. There is every chance that villain is playing "heads I win $200, tails I pay off $75". But hero's cheating opened the door for this play. Hero can't have more than $75 per the house rules. What is Villain to make of all those chips in front of Hero? Is the hero/host in the middle of selling more chips? Has someone cashed out and the host hasn't racked up those chips? Is Hero in the middle of some chip bank clean up? < I am aware that villain isn't likely to be so clueless. >

If I am sitting at the table, I think the resolution is "reasonable". The host was breaking the rules, got caught, and had to take back the illegal part of his buy-in. I am not saying Hero's action at the time of the buy-in was reasonable. But I could give him a sliver of doubt about the acceptability of the situation.

Hosts need to be dedicated to defending their house rules. Changes in the stakes of the game, buy-in rules, cash out rules, betting formats or betting limits shouldn't change in the middle of the game.

A Host also needs to be crystal clear in cases where banking responsibilities might clash with Hero's interests. Rebuys need to be clearly announced, prior to the start of the hand. Chips coming in / going out while hands are in progress are loose cannons - There shouldn't be any question about what chips are in Hero's stack vs. chips in transit to/from the bank.

If Host wants to play "match 1/2 the big stack after ten o'clock" but plays $25 - $75 before ten o'clock", then say so when setting up the game.

Don't rebuy in stealth mode for your own account.

Don't assume everyone knows these secret rules. Don't assume everyone agrees with them either even if they don't speak up.

Changing the buy-in rules mid game harms the weakest players and benefits the better players.

Hero has no one to blame besides himself. Villain was probably taking advantage of hero's indiscretion but there is only one person responsible for the situation.

My $0.02 -=- DrStrange

That feels harsh. Host certainly needs to cinch up the ambiguity of exactly when rebuys to half stack are allowed, and host should announce his rebuys because it’s simply good practice. But calling him a cheater isn’t fair and suggesting it’s worse than villain’s angle/freeroll is wrong.
I disagree.

 

[Machine]

That feels harsh. Host certainly needs to cinch up the ambiguity of exactly when rebuys to half stack are allowed, and host should announce his rebuys because it’s simply good practice. But calling him a cheater isn’t fair and suggesting it’s worse than villain’s angle/freeroll is wrong.
I disagree.

Bit harsh but not out of line, it is a maximum but really illustrates what could be. Tough love and holding host accountable, and members that should know how / why.

I don’t think there was any intentional maliciousness from hero or villain though

 

[Josh Kifer]

I do not think this is exactly what happened. The way I read the OP the custom is to allow 1/2 stack match at some juncture at every game, so I don't think buying in for 200 itself is a neferarious act. (Thiugh I have criticized the host already for not being being specific enough with this rule.)

But every game I have played, announcing the amount of any chips coming to the table is a standard practice, one the host has admitted overlooking and now understands the reason why.

Here is where I am. If the incident was the first hand after the rebuy, the resolution is reasonable. If it's any longer than that the host let villian shoot an angle here.

Yeah. He rebuyed within limits. He just didn't scream "200 DOLLAR REBUY BITCHES".... like required in our house.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Yeah. He rebuyed within limits. He just didn't scream "200 DOLLAR REBUY BITCHES".... like required in our house.

Our house - is a very, very, very fine house! (CSNY)

 

[LotsOfChips]

Our house - is a very, very, very fine house! (CSNY)

(I won't mention about the two cats in the yard...)

 

[Kentucky]

But every game I have played, announcing the amount of any chips coming to the table is a standard practice, one the host has admitted overlooking and now understands the reason why.

This may be somewhat of a confession. On the limited occasions I've been to a proper casino, at my cage visit I change the total amount I want to wager that day which is typically over the table max. E.g. last time I sat at 1/3 I tabled $300 (the max) of $5s but had 3x $100s in my pocket. When my stack dwindled below $200 I pulled a hundo from my pocket and set it in my stack. Was this an angle? Should I have told the dealer (discretely)? Should I have stood up and announced to the table? I want to be playing the game correctly.

Related, this thread makes me realize that I need to tighten up the rules at a home game I run the bank for. The host states "$100 max buy-in". No one ever buys for less than $100 at a time and the convention is that players bust out completely, then rebuy. There's usually somewhat of a pause as the table recovers from the All In that just went down, the busted player, subjected to rebuy peer pressure, passes me more money down the table and I pass back the extra chips. However, at the last game one of the better players lost a large-ish pot and asked for a rebuy with $20-ish still in front. I understood why and obliged - he was now the short stack and the rebuy put him in the middle of the pack (I had about $200 at that point) - but it did make me a little uncomfortable because he was to my direct left and it ended up being a relatively discrete transaction. I'll make a point to discuss with the host that we should explicitly allow match the stack or $100 rebuys if you are below $50 or something, or truly limit to top ups to $100.

I'm kind of conflicted about announcing rebuys to the table for the same reasons the forum considers it bad form to track players' wining and loosing sessions. Is it truly the best way to point it out to everyone? I'd prefer to not draw extra attention to it, as long as it is within the pre-game buy in rules - and then it's up to the players to observe their opponents stack sizes.

 

[Mandos]

When my stack dwindled below $200 I pulled a hundo from my pocket and set it in my stack. Was this an angle? Should I have told the dealer (discretely)? Should I have stood up and announced to the table? I want to be playing the game correctly.

I wonder about this part too. I'm normally ok with buying players in for 2 or 3 max buyins ($100-150 for a $50 max) with the extra chips off the table and allowing them to add chips when they get low to stay at the max buyin amount. I never really expected them to make a big announcement to the table when doing so. Is that what everyone would expect?

 

[upNdown]

This may be somewhat of a confession. On the limited occasions I've been to a proper casino, at my cage visit I change the total amount I want to wager that day which is typically over the table max. E.g. last time I sat at 1/3 I tabled $300 (the max) of $5s but had 3x $100s in my pocket. When my stack dwindled below $200 I pulled a hundo from my pocket and set it in my stack. Was this an angle? Should I have told the dealer (discretely)? Should I have stood up and announced to the table? I want to be playing the game correctly.

Related, this thread makes me realize that I need to tighten up the rules at a home game I run the bank for. The host states "$100 max buy-in". No one ever buys for less than $100 at a time and the convention is that players bust out completely, then rebuy. There's usually somewhat of a pause as the table recovers from the All In that just went down, the busted player, subjected to rebuy peer pressure, passes me more money down the table and I pass back the extra chips. However, at the last game one of the better players lost a large-ish pot and asked for a rebuy with $20-ish still in front. I understood why and obliged - he was now the short stack and the rebuy put him in the middle of the pack (I had about $200 at that point) - but it did make me a little uncomfortable because he was to my direct left and it ended up being a relatively discrete transaction. I'll make a point to discuss with the host that we should explicitly allow match the stack or $100 rebuys if you are below $50 or something, or truly limit to top ups to $100.

I'm kind of conflicted about announcing rebuys to the table for the same reasons the forum considers it bad form to track players' wining and loosing sessions. Is it truly the best way to point it out to everyone? I'd prefer to not draw extra attention to it, as long as it is within the pre-game buy in rules - and then it's up to the players to observe their opponents stack sizes.

People are generally permitted to add on up to the max buyin whenever they want (in between hands of course.) No announcements are required. But of course everybody has to keep their chips displayed so anybody can count them at any time. And if you’re not constantly looking at your opponents’ stacks, especially when you’re in a hand with them, you’re doing it wrong - you’re entitled to know what they have, but it’s up to you to stay on top of it.

A lot of home game hosts like to announce their personal rebuys and addons in the name of transparency, because they are both a player and the bank. It’s good practice but not required.

 

[Kentucky]

A lot of home game hosts like to announce their personal rebuys and addons in the name of transparency, because they are both a player and the bank. It’s good practice but not required.

Ah... so the mandatory announcement is for the host/bank only. That makes more sense.

 

[Machine]

This may be somewhat of a confession. On the limited occasions I've been to a proper casino, at my cage visit I change the total amount I want to wager that day which is typically over the table max. E.g. last time I sat at 1/3 I tabled $300 (the max) of $5s but had 3x $100s in my pocket. When my stack dwindled below $200 I pulled a hundo from my pocket and set it in my stack. Was this an angle? Should I have told the dealer (discretely)? Should I have stood up and announced to the table? I want to be playing the game correctly.

This is completely fine, I do this as well. As long as you are not going over the table max.

 

[Machine]

Ah... so the mandatory announcement is for the host/bank only. That makes more sense.

No, what would be mandatory would be breaking the rules of the buyin, you should announce that, or announce when the rebuy changes from X to match stack.

It could be consider good form to announce when you are topping off, but if you're felted, um ... I've heard poker is a game of observation

 

[Nymor]

I'm not sure I'd be happy with players buying a 2/3 buyins and keeping 1/2 in their pockets for when they run low. Just as easy to go from table to pocket (ratholing) as it is for pocket to table. Any chips bought in my game go straight on to the table.

 

[Machine]

I'm not sure I'd be happy with players buying a 2/3 buyins and keeping 1/2 in their pockets for when they run low. Just as easy to go from table to pocket (ratholing) as it is for pocket to table. Any chips bought in my game go straight on to the table.

Yeah, I wouldn't pre buy chips and toss in my pocket at a home game, besides some ppl might forget and take off with my chips.

 

[upNdown]

Yeah, I wouldn't pre buy chips and toss in my pocket at a home game, besides some ppl might forget and take off with my chips.

Haha, right, but that’s only because my quarters, ones, and fives are worth a lot more than face value. My hundreds cost me like ten bucks apiece - I suppose if somebody wants to stick a few of those in their pocket, go right ahead.

 

[Kentucky]

I'm not sure I'd be happy with players buying a 2/3 buyins and keeping 1/2 in their pockets for when they run low. Just as easy to go from table to pocket (ratholing) as it is for pocket to table. Any chips bought in my game go straight on to the table.

I totally get that - and just because I wouldn't do it doesn't mean others wouldn't. Something else to think about.

 

[Mandos]

Yeah, I wouldn't pre buy chips and toss in my pocket at a home game, besides some ppl might forget and take off with my chips.

I only do it with chips worth less than face value, so $5 and up for me.

 

[Nine_high]

This may be somewhat of a confession. On the limited occasions I've been to a proper casino, at my cage visit I change the total amount I want to wager that day which is typically over the table max. E.g. last time I sat at 1/3 I tabled $300 (the max) of $5s but had 3x $100s in my pocket. When my stack dwindled below $200 I pulled a hundo from my pocket and set it in my stack. Was this an angle? Should I have told the dealer (discretely)? Should I have stood up and announced to the table? I want to be playing the game correctly.

At a casino, I mean if they allow it sure. But I would not allow this in my game. Too much room for exploit, missing chips, ratholing, bank discrepancy, and just plain confusion.

I'm kind of conflicted about announcing rebuys to the table for the same reasons the forum considers it bad form to track players' wining and loosing sessions. Is it truly the best way to point it out to everyone? I'd prefer to not draw extra attention to it, as long as it is within the pre-game buy in rules - and then it's up to the players to observe their opponents stack sizes.

I don't make it a point to draw attention to it. I don't say, "Listen up guys! Nick is in for another $100! For those keeping track, yeah it's his fifth bullet!" But that would be funny so maybe I'll start

What I do is ask the dealer to hold off on dealing while I count out the cash and then the chips in the middle, so I'm not fighting with blinds and card pitches. I just say the amount as I pass the stack over or back to myself. The whole process takes 10-15 seconds. No one has to pay attention if they don't want, but as someone else said, it's completely transparent.

 

[JustinInMN]

This may be somewhat of a confession. On the limited occasions I've been to a proper casino, at my cage visit I change the total amount I want to wager that day which is typically over the table max. E.g. last time I sat at 1/3 I tabled $300 (the max) of $5s but had 3x $100s in my pocket. When my stack dwindled below $200 I pulled a hundo from my pocket and set it in my stack. Was this an angle? Should I have told the dealer (discretely)? Should I have stood up and announced to the table? I want to be playing the game correctly.

This makes the original post very interesting. Because I know players that do this, and it's allowed so players don't have to rely on chip runners. And players are responsible for chips if they are not announces.

This is a little different than "chips in transit" so it doesn't require announcement.

But this wouldn't happen in a home game.

I'm kind of conflicted about announcing rebuys to the table for the same reasons the forum considers it bad form to track players' wining and loosing sessions. Is it truly the best way to point it out to everyone? I'd prefer to not draw extra attention to it, as long as it is within the pre-game buy in rules - and then it's up to the players to observe their opponents stack sizes.

I understand this to a point but the only reason to do this is to make sure the table knows what he has coming as the game continues. You aren't announcing "100 back, this is now 500 for the night" or anything like that.

Yeah, I wouldn't pre buy chips and toss in my pocket at a home game, besides some ppl might forget and take off with my chips.

Haha, right, but that’s only because my quarters, ones, and fives are worth a lot more than face value. My hundreds cost me like ten bucks apiece - I suppose if somebody wants to stick a few of those in their pocket, go right ahead.

I spent roughly 70c a chip on my sunfly hybrids. So I am way in the good of a guy walks off with a 100 without cashing it.

 

[AWenger]

The announced buy-in for the game was $25-$75, but usually towards the end, we do match half-stack.

I'm late to this thread, and haven't read everything above. But a question I have is what is meant by "usually" and what is meant by "towards the end" (of the game)? -- this description seems very vague to me -- if these things are not clear to all players, including the opponent in the hand in question, if I was the opponent in the hand, then I, too would probably question the size of the pot after you rebuy, if I thought the max buy in was $75.

But if it's common for players in your game to buy in for $200 or more or less toward the end, and this happens a lot and the opponent in the hand is used to this, then I would somewhat think what he's doing might be an angle of him not paying attention to stack size.

As an example, I once played in a game once that had well-defined rules, they weren't written anywhere, but clearly announced to any new players and at the start of the game: Game started at 7pm. 1/2 blinds. Buy-in to start is $100 to $300 max, but after 9pm, the max increases to half-the big stack. (So if a player has $800 in front of them, anyone could buy-in for $400 or add-on up to $400 total.)

This is what should be clearly defined by the rules, (verbally or written).

 

[ArielVer18]

one thing isn't clear from the OP: do you already have the rebuy chips physically in front of you before the start of the hand?

If we're going by the letter of poker rules, technically you only need to make a verbal announcement if you're "playing behind," meaning you have chips coming from the chiprunner, but you want them to be in play ASAP even if they're not physically in front of you yet.