Is This Situation an Angle or Not? How Would You Deal with It? (2 Viewers)

[rusmon]

Okay, looks like this post got a lot of attention over the last couple of days and there is some confusion/questions. Let me clear some things up.

Not clear from the OP how many hands had elapsed since the rebuy

Here is where I am. If the incident was the first hand after the rebuy, the resolution is reasonable. If it's any longer than that the host let villian shoot an angle here.

one thing isn't clear from the OP: do you already have the rebuy chips physically in front of you before the start of the hand?

This hand was the hand right after the rebuy and I had the chips in front of me at the start of the hand.

As I read the original post, Hero is host and decides to rebuy for himself way more than the stated buy-in limits. Unannounced. This is not angle shooting, it is outright cheating in my book. If Hero doesn't care for his own house rules, he should change them publicly and before the game starts.

This take is the most bizarre one you could come up with if you had read my original post.

I do not think this is exactly what happened. The way I read the OP the custom is to allow 1/2 stack match at some juncture at every game, so I don't think buying in for 200 itself is a neferarious act. (Thiugh I have criticized the host already for not being being specific enough with this rule.)

This take is a reasonable one from somebody who read my post and is trying to be helpful.

But every game I have played, announcing the amount of any chips coming to the table is a standard practice, one the host has admitted overlooking and now understands the reason why.

I'm kind of conflicted about announcing rebuys to the table for the same reasons the forum considers it bad form to track players' wining and loosing sessions. Is it truly the best way to point it out to everyone? I'd prefer to not draw extra attention to it, as long as it is within the pre-game buy in rules - and then it's up to the players to observe their opponents stack sizes.

A lot of home game hosts like to announce their personal rebuys and addons in the name of transparency, because they are both a player and the bank. It’s good practice but not required.

Although I can understand why some games would announce rebuy amounts, I am also hesitant to announce the amounts at my games. We do announce rebuy/add ons but not the amount. If somebody asks how much is coming in, more than happy to announce it.

Which brings me to this:

I'm late to this thread, and haven't read everything above. But a question I have is what is meant by "usually" and what is meant by "towards the end" (of the game)? -- this description seems very vague to me -- if these things are not clear to all players, including the opponent in the hand in question, if I was the opponent in the hand, then I, too would probably question the size of the pot after you rebuy, if I thought the max buy in was $75.

That's the whole crux of the matter and what we have resolved for our games going forward. Our games are 25¢/50¢ with a large pool of players. A handful of players are comfortable playing $1/$3 stakes and up and we don't mind putting more money on the table. The other players are super casual and while they don't mind playing a bigger game, they want to "warm up" and get a chance to build up their stacks. This is why we play strict buy-ins for the first half of the night and once the game gets big enough, we allow 1/2 match stacks. There was no set time for this, I would just gauge how the table is playing and if it seems like everybody is comfortable we open it up to bigger rebuys/add ons. The player in this hand has a loose playing style and often times busts early on in the night and will keep asking me if he can do 1/2 stack from the first rebuy. I usually tell him to "hold on until the table is ready for bigger play". Once that happens, I allow him to do 1/2 match. His style of play means on any given night he is either up big or down big. By his own admission he would rather lose $500 than win $10. Go big or go home is his playing style. This particular night he was running really well and didn't have to rebuy. I got stacked and decided to rebuy for $200 at around midnight which is well past the time we usually allow 1/2 match stack.

Were our rebuy/add on guidelines vague and confusing? Yes, absolutely. Have we changed that going forward? Yes, we have. Our game is still new and we're dealing with things as they come up. I can't anticipate every single issue before it comes up. All I can do is set up the most organized game I can and then set up additional guidelines/rules as needed if issues come up. I'm always learning and looking to improve my games. I'm willing to give me players the benefit of the doubt until I see repeat behavior. That is exactly why I made this thread in the first place. I appreciate all the thoughtful/helpful responses I've gotten and have updated our rules as needed.

 

[JustinInMN]

Although I can understand why some games would announce rebuy amounts, I am also hesitant to announce the amounts at my games. We do announce rebuy/add ons but not the amount. If somebody asks how much is coming in, more than happy to announce it.

That's probably an okay medium, but the fact the buy in changes throughout the night leads me to believe you should have a bias toward announcing the amounts for clarity.

There was no set time for this, I would just gauge how the table is playing and if it seems like everybody is comfortable we open it up to bigger rebuys/add ons. The player in this hand has a loose playing style and often times busts early on in the night and will keep asking me if he can do 1/2 stack from the first rebuy. I usually tell him to "hold on until the table is ready for bigger play". Once that happens, I allow him to do 1/2 match.

This is probably a reason for villain's hurt feelings. If the rule is "no half match" until the host says, and the host just happens to allow himself the big buy in when it happens to hurt in a big pot, I can see why he would push back. (Even with you saying it was well deep in the night, I am sure that was forgotten in the moment.) Probably also makes me believe you were right to compromise after all.

Were our rebuy/add on guidelines vague and confusing? Yes, absolutely. Have we changed that going forward? Yes, we have. Our game is still new and we're dealing with things as they come up.

I do hope you have changed this to a specific time frame. Two hours is a good medium in my opinion. And if you just make an announcement at this point in time, then you probably can go ahead and be more reticent about announcing rebuy/add-on amounts.

Also, the thing with half-stack match (contrasting with full-stack match) is that someone will have to MORE than double up to raise the buy in amount. Two players would have to get above 75 and one take out the other to even change the buy-in. Someone will have to get over 200 to change the buy-in to 100. That's not super likely to happen in 1-2 hours.

But glad you are thinking these things through. PCF has a lot of good hosts with good advice.

 

[upNdown]

This is probably a reason for villain's hurt feelings. If the rule is "no half match" until the host says, and the host just happens to allow himself the big buy in when it happens to hurt in a big pot, I can see why he would push back. (Even with you saying it was well deep in the night, I am sure that was forgotten in the moment.) Probably also makes me believe you were right to compromise after all.

This guy intentionally went all in knowing the stack sizes. Then when he lost, he didn’t honor his bet. Call it an angle or call it cheating but it’s friggen low. Let’s not lose sight of that.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I do hope you have changed this to a specific time frame. Two hours is a good medium in my opinion. And if you just make an announcement at this point in time, then you probably can go ahead and be more reticent about announcing rebuy/add-on amounts.

I vote for setting a 2-hour timer that plays circus music when it goes off.

 

[louBdub]

Minimum buy in: As advertised on invite
Maximum buy in: As advertised on invite
Unlimited Add Ons up to Big Stack: Always

From that point, you’re in control of your hand and actions.

Big boy rules. No training wheels.

 

[AuburnSeth]

I recently ran into a situation during a 25¢/50¢ cash game I was hosting and wanted to get your thoughts on whether it was an angle or not and how you would have dealt with it.

I am conflicted on this one.
In the end, charging yourself a “stupid tax” of missing out on the remaining chips is the safest option, then be sure to make everything clear moving forward.
It would be totally acceptable for you to get the chips owed for these rapid fire reasons:
1) he literally told you he knew your stack size
2) it’s always on the opponents to know how much they’re playing against - the chips are visible!!
3) you had already re-bought for $100, so why would he assume this buyin was $75, and not $100, or even the $25 minimum like you said

I would reconsider even allowing this player at the table. This is probably not the only time he will angle shoot or be a bad loser. You don’t need that vibe when there are thousands of dollars on the table.