Jacks on the button in a sticky game (1 Viewer)

[Shaggy]

Cast of characters:
SB (~$200 on a 2x $100 buy-in): Reasonably solid player, somewhat tricky. Tends to call more if up or if early in the night.

BB (~$170 on a $300 buy in, but was up $300 at one point): Calling station that bluffs often if checked to. Sometimes these bluffs are actually him value betting with an inferior hand. He sees almost every flop.

MP3 ($300 on a $100 buy-in): Most experienced player at the table. This is the guy that got me into poker. Capable of semi bluff raising and generally putting Hero into tough spots.

Button ($250 on a 3x $100 buy-in): Hero, table image fairly tight and fairly aggressive, yet still gets lots of calls and little "respect" from the calling stations. Hero believes it is a perfectly good strategy in this game to raise pre and check fold flop that is not hit.

The game is 25c/50c NLHE. This game is very limpy/cally, with several players consistently calling large ($5) raises pre-flop for whatever reason (they like their hand, anything can happen on the flop, etc). My general philosophy in this game is to aggressively value bet the callers and force them to pay dearly for their draws. I'll play mostly TAG, but will loosen up in position.

Hero is on the button with .

7 limpers, action on hero.

 

[Trihonda]

I raise to $8-10 range. Pot is ~$3.50 + $.75 (SB/BB) thus far. Might look like a button steal.

Post flop. Fold to any AK that his the flop. Evaluate c-bet sizing based on board texture and number of callers.

 

[detroitdad]

I make it 7.25

 

[DrStrange]

I agree - a big raise. $10 is fine with me.

DrStrange

 

[detroitdad]

I'm guessing there will be a minimum of three callers. I'd rather keep it in the 7.00 range and go from there.

If we bet 10 and win the pot, what fun is that.

 

[Blaster]

What size gets yu down to 1 caller in this game ...
It is mentioned some players are calling " large $5 " preflop bets with marginal hands ...
If there is no difference in callers from $7.5-10 , go with the 7.50 ..
If $8 or 9 will actually narrow the field, then bet the higher ...

 

[Trihonda]

I don't want to play 5 handed w/ Jacks (even in position).

I think the type of hands that might limp, yet call a $10 bet, will be hands we're ahead of post flop. However, I think we want to isolate to narrow that range.

 

[Shaggy]

I agree with all of the above.

We have a running joke in our game about the difficulty people have playing JJ. We have discussed the video online etc. Typically if someone makes a "large" preflop raise, someone states "what, you have jacks?". That large pf raise used to be $5. Now I raise $3-$5 preflop exclusively in attempt to minimize the callers. In this game, there hasn't been a single raise above $5 preflop tonight. I really felt that any raise above "my usual" $5 would telegraph my hand strength. Jacks or better. I probably still should have.

Hero raises to $5. I expected a couple/few callers... got six callers.

Pot $37

Flop

SB bets $20, BB and MP3 call, hero?

 

[Phantom]

What a bitter sweet flop. Happened to me on the weekend. My AA was cracked when this exact flop came down and the villain had K9h. The 9 on the turn meant I knew I was gone . Saved some money though.

With that many callers, someone will have A or K for sure and possibly a 9, so they will stick around. probably just a call at this stage and re-evaluate on the turn, pray for a Q or T .

 

[Trihonda]

pray for a Q or T .

...or the

 

[detroitdad]

Shove

 

[DrStrange]

Let's flat and evaluate the turn. I am not saying Hero is behind and might well take aggressive action on a brick.

DrStrange

 

[Mr Tree]

What a bitter sweet flop. Happened to me on the weekend. My AA was cracked when this exact flop came down and the villain had K9h. The 9 on the turn meant I knew I was gone . Saved some money though.

With that many callers, someone will have A or K for sure and possibly a 9, so they will stick around. probably just a call at this stage and re-evaluate on the turn, pray for a Q or T .

God that's about the worst flop possible for AA. At least he has a set with the JJ. Call and hope the board pairs making your decision easier.

 

[Trihonda]

I agree flat.

Hard to put someone on AK at this point, or QQ. (K9 and 89s are more likely, but still not "likely"). I'm assuming you have the best of it right now, with a brick turn, I'd shove any c-bet. With a paired board, I'd smooth call any c-bet.

Any 8,9,K,A I'd be seriously considering a fold to a decent c-bet.

 

[detroitdad]

I like the shove more myself

 

[Ben]

Hero should not flat - that is a huge mistake on this board. People will stack off with all sorts of marginal equity and perceived equity that they don't actually have since we have a set and redraw against any straight/flush. KQ, QT, TT, any NFD and probably AQ are getting it in all day. We can also force out some hands that are only paying additional money if they hit like KT, T9 and 99. I'm torn between a raise to $100 and a shove - if you have some players that will fold draws incorrectly on the turn if they don't hit, then $100 - otherwise just jam it in.

 

[detroitdad]

Holy shit...did Ben just almost agree with me.

 

[Shaggy]

Are we flatting because we think we might be behind? Are we flatting purely for pot control? Do we want to allow BB and MP3 to have their good price to draw (assuming they aren't slow playing AK)?

 

[joker80]

Tough spot. There are going to be a lot of scare cards on the turn. I think we have to raise here. There are just too many ways to lose this hand with more cards to come. You are likely ahead right now, but if someone shoves behind your raise you may be beat already. I would bet 80$.

 

[Phantom]

Are we flatting because we think we might be behind? Are we flatting purely for pot control? Do we want to allow BB and MP3 to have their good price to draw (assuming they aren't slow playing AK)?

I am no poker expert, but my reason for flat is that with that flop, 2 cards to come and 5 to 6 other players who will chase the straight, you will probably go down with your set, unless the board pairs favourably. If the others were of a mind to fold their straight draw (something only you can know from experience), then sure, jam, but I don't think they're folding and there are too many scary cards to come. Raise or jam is probably the 'right' play, but is it the smart play with this crowd? Do they know the right price/odds for a draw, or will they see all that lovely money out there and say, "There are two cards to come - anything can happen!"

 

[Shaggy]

I am no poker expert, but my reason for flat is that with that flop, 2 cards to come and 5 to 6 other players who will chase the straight, you will probably go down with your set, unless the board pairs favourably. If the others were of a mind to fold their straight draw (something only you can know from experience), then sure, jam, but I don't think they're folding and there are too many scary cards to come. Raise or jam is probably the 'right' play, but is it the smart play with this crowd? Do they know the right price/odds for a draw, or will they see all that lovely money out there and say, "There are two cards to come - anything can happen!"

To paraphrase Sklansky... we need to put our opponents in situations where they will make a mistake. I see calling as allowing my opponents who have previously called the SB's donkbet the right price to draw. This is a mistake by me. Unless I am currently behind, I need to bet enough to price them out of their draws... and hope they call. If their draw comes in, so it goes.

Also, there are just 3 players and hero still in the hand when action is on hero.

 

[Shaggy]

Hero raises to $75. SB folds, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Pot $282

Turn

Board:
Hero's hand:
Hero's remaining stack: $170

Checks to hero (button). Action?

 

[stocky]

Jam

 

[detroitdad]

Jam

Yep. Should have been done on the flop

 

[DrStrange]

Jam now.

Jam the flop? Pot is $117 at the point in the hand (after Hero catches up with the $20 bet) with Hero having $225 behind. So a 2x pot jam. There is a RIO issue, though Hero has 35% equity vs any straight. The biggest issue for me is Hero is going to chase off a lot of equity with the monster bet. Maybe I don't know the villains well enough - would someone call off their whole stack with KQ (top pair + open ended draw)? I'd expect hero to take the $97 pot most of the time.

DrStrange

 

[joker80]

Jam is the play

 

[detroitdad]

Jam now.

Jam the flop? Pot is $117 at the point in the hand (after Hero catches up with the $20 bet) with Hero having $225 behind. So a 2x pot jam. There is a RIO issue, though Hero has 35% equity vs any straight. The biggest issue for me is Hero is going to chase off a lot of equity with the monster bet. Maybe I don't know the villains well enough - would someone call off their whole stack with KQ (top pair + open ended draw)? I'd expect hero to take the $97 pot most of the time.

DrStrange

I didn't say I was any good. I was just saying what I would do

 

[Phantom]

To paraphrase Sklansky... we need to put our opponents in situations where they will make a mistake. I see calling as allowing my opponents who have previously called the SB's donkbet the right price to draw. This is a mistake by me. Unless I am currently behind, I need to bet enough to price them out of their draws... and hope they call. If their draw comes in, so it goes.

Also, there are just 3 players and hero still in the hand when action is on hero.

Didn't see the info where the other two folded after 6 calls to the flop. Assumed you had 6 others to deal with.

Agree with making them pay for their draws, but 3 callers ... I am not good either - just my thoughts at that stage.

I see now there is a bet of $75 and only 2 callers. Potentially on draws or perhaps a set themselves. QQ is a possibility within your pre-flop raise reasoning and he is letting you walk into his trap. The 6 of spades slows him down to let you do that, maybe. Or they are hoping for a free card to get their draw. probably time to make them pay for further mistakes, if your read is they are on draws. Again, just layman reasoning, as I have no real understanding of odds and the like. Just how I would be looking at it.

 

[Shaggy]

Regarding jamming the flop. I am opposed to it for the reasons the Dr points out. The only hand that is calling is AK. With the $75 bet... or the $100 that some suggested, it allows me to fold if I get reraised. I think I am only reraised by AK here. I really don't think I am against QQ here due to the pf action.

Regarding the turn... after looking at the numbers, I agree jamming here is appropriate. At the table, I didn't realize how big the pot had gotten... or where my stack was actually at. When it was checked to me, I quickly announced "a buck twenty." So...

Hero bets $120, BB calls all-in for $90, and MP3 calls.

Main pot $552, side pot $60

River ... whew!!!

Board:
Hero's hand:
Hero's remaining stack: $50

MP3 moves all-in, has hero covered, effective bet, $50. Action?

Uninteresting here... obvious call right?

Hero calls.

MP3 tables
BB tables

Hero drags the pot.

Looking at this hand after the fact, shows me just how bad of a call BB is willing to make. Additionally, it shows me that once those early position calls are made, it really priced in MP3. He had a huge draw... 15 outs (from his perspective). Bigger bets on any of the streets would have made the hand easier to play... and would have more closely priced MP3 out. As it was, he was right to call every street... except for maybe pf.

 

[Phantom]

Prayer answered, board paired , nice pot mate. easy game