Kill and Half-Kill in Stud Games (3 Viewers)

[ChaosRock]

During the last few Limit Games I've played the same discussion came up: what's the best way of implementing a Kill or Half-Kill for Stud games. Unfortunately we did not get to a suitable option.

For games that use blinds, that feature is easily implemented by making the trigger player post the Kill amount as a third blind (for $4/$8 games with $2/$4 blinds, Kill would post $8 blind and limits would jump to $8/$16 or $6 blind and limits jump to $6/$12). For Stud though, since it's played with antes and bring-in, that becomes more of a challenge.

Did any of you guys played with a Kill structure that makes sense in Stud? Not talking about the trigger as that could be scoop, pot size or back-to-back. Talking about how the trigger player gets 'punished' if you will...

Would love to get some ideas...

 

[RocAFella1]

Perhaps the killer would have to post 2x the complete after the antes? And stakes would be half or full killed.

 

[ChaosRock]

Perhaps the killer would have to post 2x the complete after the antes? And stakes would be half or full killed.

Like another ante in addition to the Button ante or as real blind complete?

Well, that makes me think that one option is to have the Killer bring-in for half the new Small Bet regardless on the card showing... Interesting...

 

[RocAFella1]

Like another ante in addition to the Button ante or as real blind complete?

A real blind complete similar to how a straddle would operate.

 

[ChaosRock]

A real blind complete similar to how a straddle would operate.

It makes sense... It would be even more of a punishment since he wouldn't get position in the first betting round as he would in blind games... So we would keep the bring-in process the same, just with the higher Limit?

 

[RocAFella1]

It makes sense... It would be even more of a punishment since he wouldn't get position in the first betting round as he would in blind games... So we would keep the bring-in process the same, just with the higher Limit?

I think so, except killer would get last action if it's operating like a straddle? Depends how you play your kills in non-stud games I guess.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

We leave the antes alone, they stay the same. The killer has to immediately post a double-bring in, action still proceeds normally in turn with the low/high card having to bring in a double bring-in and anyone completing completes to a double small bet. (Our 2/4 becomes 4/8). The killer acts in turn and can check or complete (or fold if he's been raised)

 

[Chris Manzoni]

Sometimes it's just a coincidence that the killer also happens to be the bring-in, in this case it works out for him/her, there's no additional penalty.

 

[ChaosRock]

We leave the antes alone, they stay the same. The killer has to immediately post a double-bring in, action still proceeds normally in turn with the low/high card having to bring in a double bring-in and anyone completing completes to a double small bet. (Our 2/4 becomes 4/8). The killer acts in turn and can check or complete (or fold if he's been raised)

So similar to Chris' suggestion, like a blind complete with the new SB?

 

[ChaosRock]

Here's my only small concern with that suggestion: yes, the Killer is completing blind with the Kill Small Bet but the bring-in is forced to put more money in the pot with the new Limit amounts. In blind games, entering the pot or not is optional... In other words, you're punishing the Killer but also the bring-in. Since it's random I guess it's fine...

 

[RocAFella1]

Here's my only small concern with that suggestion: yes, the Killer is completing blind with the Kill Small Bet but the bring-in is forced to put more money in the pot with the new Limit amounts. In blind games, entering the pot or not is optional... In other words, you're punishing the Killer but also the bring-in. Since it's random I guess it's fine...

No different than being the SB or BB in blind games with a kill imo

 

[ChaosRock]

No different than being the SB or BB in blind games with a kill imo

Except in blind games, the blinds are posting them without the Kill, just like every other hand. In this case, the bring-in is posting twice the regular amount.

And again, maybe that's not a big deal... Just trying to think through all the ramifications...

 

[Machine]

For stud, sounds like you are playing with antes. If you're going to put in a kill the ante would need to go up.

To make sure we are all on the same page this would be the typical stud structure for 7s8O
The 7s8O game I play in is 15/30 with a 2 ante, for the sake of conversation, I'll assume you put in a .5 ante
Because the bring in is typically 1/3 the small limit, I'll assume 6 / 12 which might be a 1/2 kill

I would make the ante $1 (assuming .5 chips if quarters then maybe .75, but that might cause change issues with 9 players)
With a 6 / 12 the bring in would be $2 or $6
4th street bets would be $6 (I dislike and we don't play the pair BS where you can dbl on 4th with pairs, do what you will)
5th, 6th, 7th would all be $12 streets

Okay here is how I would 'punish' the player, if you require them to match the anties and its a full game $8 ante is a bit steep especially if they have soft played either hand. Stud and 8o is a game of winning 1 or 2 bets on the late streets in most games I've seen. If you've got a bunch of action junkies in stud keeping the anties low and upping the 'blinds' would be better for better players.

Doubling the antie to $2 for the kill player is too weak. I think I would take the anties up to $1 and the kill player would need to (Ante x player) / 2.

In a six-player game with the kill, $1 x 6 players / 2 = $3 (for odd player count round up or down /shrug)
I don't think this is quite enough, maybe they have to post $2 or $3 as well? I think I like that, if they get the bring in bully for them, they have the option to raise to $6 or leave the posted amount to act as the low bring in.

If they get the bring in and they have post $3, they can't take the buck off but everyone else can call for $2.

This is just spitballing but I like it, and for the record, if its six-handed play super-stud 7s8O

 

[CraigT78]

@bergs How does the $6/$12 game handle the kill in Super Stud?

 

[ChaosRock]

For stud, sounds like you are playing with antes. If you're going to put in a kill the ante would need to go up.

To make sure we are all on the same page this would be the typical stud structure for 7s8O
The 7s8O game I play in is 15/30 with a 2 ante, for the sake of conversation, I'll assume you put in a .5 ante
Because the bring in is typically 1/3 the small limit, I'll assume 6 / 12 which might be a 1/2 kill

I would make the ante $1 (assuming .5 chips if quarters then maybe .75, but that might cause change issues with 9 players)
With a 6 / 12 the bring in would be $2 or $6
4th street bets would be $6 (I dislike and we don't play the pair BS where you can dbl on 4th with pairs, do what you will)
5th, 6th, 7th would all be $12 streets

Okay here is how I would 'punish' the player, if you require them to match the anties and its a full game $8 ante is a bit steep especially if they have soft played either hand. Stud and 8o is a game of winning 1 or 2 bets on the late streets in most games I've seen. If you've got a bunch of action junkies in stud keeping the anties low and upping the 'blinds' would be better for better players.

Doubling the antie to $2 for the kill player is too weak. I think I would take the anties up to $1 and the kill player would need to (Ante x player) / 2.

In a six-player game with the kill, $1 x 6 players / 2 = $3 (for odd player count round up or down /shrug)
I don't think this is quite enough, maybe they have to post $2 or $3 as well? I think I like that, if they get the bring in bully for them, they have the option to raise to $6 or leave the posted amount to act as the low bring in.

If they get the bring in and they have post $3, they can't take the buck off but everyone else can call for $2.

This is just spitballing but I like it, and for the record, if its six-handed play super-stud 7s8O

I’m out and about and I’ll write more tomorrow but, I was thinking along similar lines.

My thought is that Stud games are funded by antes + Bring-in vs blinds in other games. Therefore, I’d think raising the antes (and or) bring-in for the Kill would make sense. I’ll elaborate more tomorrow.

Yes, I’m talking about a 7-card Stud structure, whether it’s High, St8, Razz or other variants. Structure is 2chip small bet 4chip big bet with a 2chip Button ante and a 1 chip bring-in, 2chip complete.

 

[bergs]

@bergs How does the $6/$12 game handle the kill in Super Stud?

Everyone (including killer) antes single $2 chip as usual, and killer posts $12, action starts to left of kill (regardless of up cards). That’s a full kill. 8/16 at Talking Stick turns into 12/24 (half kill).

Killer acts last unless there is a raise in front of them in which case they act in turn.

 

[bergs]

For stud, sounds like you are playing with antes. If you're going to put in a kill the ante would need to go up.

Never seen the ante go up on a kill anywhere.

 

[ChaosRock]

For stud, sounds like you are playing with antes. If you're going to put in a kill the ante would need to go up.

To make sure we are all on the same page this would be the typical stud structure for 7s8O
The 7s8O game I play in is 15/30 with a 2 ante, for the sake of conversation, I'll assume you put in a .5 ante
Because the bring in is typically 1/3 the small limit, I'll assume 6 / 12 which might be a 1/2 kill

I would make the ante $1 (assuming .5 chips if quarters then maybe .75, but that might cause change issues with 9 players)
With a 6 / 12 the bring in would be $2 or $6
4th street bets would be $6 (I dislike and we don't play the pair BS where you can dbl on 4th with pairs, do what you will)
5th, 6th, 7th would all be $12 streets

Okay here is how I would 'punish' the player, if you require them to match the anties and its a full game $8 ante is a bit steep especially if they have soft played either hand. Stud and 8o is a game of winning 1 or 2 bets on the late streets in most games I've seen. If you've got a bunch of action junkies in stud keeping the anties low and upping the 'blinds' would be better for better players.

Doubling the antie to $2 for the kill player is too weak. I think I would take the anties up to $1 and the kill player would need to (Ante x player) / 2.

In a six-player game with the kill, $1 x 6 players / 2 = $3 (for odd player count round up or down /shrug)
I don't think this is quite enough, maybe they have to post $2 or $3 as well? I think I like that, if they get the bring in bully for them, they have the option to raise to $6 or leave the posted amount to act as the low bring in.

If they get the bring in and they have post $3, they can't take the buck off but everyone else can call for $2.

This is just spitballing but I like it, and for the record, if its six-handed play super-stud 7s8O

Alright... Have a little more time now...

As I was saying yesterday, Stud games are made possible because of the dead money of the Antes (in my case Button ante of one Small Bet) and helped by the forced Bring-in.

What I was thinking was NOT to raise the Ante of every player, since it's a Button ante, but just making the Killer post an additional Ante, let's call it another Small Bet, so total Antes would be one Big Bet or one Small Bet with the new Kill Limit.

I agree with bergs that increasing Ante of every player (if that's what he meant) doesn't make much sense but making the Killer post an additional ante, might.

Okay, now it's Bring-in time... Do we keep the same structure based on third street cards or make the Killer bring-in? As I mentioned earlier, the bring-in would be forced to post half the Kill SB (which equals to the regular SB). So that player would be sharing the burden of the Kill with the Killer. Not sure if that's bad as it's random anyways. But making the Killer post the Bring-in might be better. Is that too much money for the Killer, meaning an additional Ante plus a forced Bring-in? Not sure...

Obviously, if we're talking about small games, who cares, right? If we're talking about 4K/8K at Bobby's Room, that might become an issue.

So back to my suggestion: Before the Kill, when one completes after the bring-in, it's a SB over a SB Ante + Bring-in, so let's call it 2 chips in a 3 chips pot. In my suggestion, in a Kill hand, when one completes it would be a BB (Kill SB) over a SB Antes + Killer SB Ante + Killer SB Bring-in, or 4 chips in a 6 chip pot, similar ratio than other pots. That would be funded by the Killer posting an additional 2 chip ante and a forced bring-in of 2 chips.

Is that too much for the Killer? Is the fact he is a forced-bring-in, as opposed to the rightful bring-in based on the 3rd street card, changing the game play too much for that hand?

Does it make sense?

I know it's too much talk about something all will say 'who cares?' but I like to nerd out about poker structure and dynamics...

TLDR: My suggestion is Killer posts another SB Ante (making total antes one Kill SB) and a forced SB Bring-in (or half the Kill SB).

 

[ChaosRock]

The more I think about it, maybe it does not seem fair the Killer should post an extra SB ante...

Maybe it should just be what bergs and others have said, just a forced bring-in (or even Complete) with the new Kill Limits. I was just trying to avoid a change in pot proportions as in this example the ratio of Ante to Bring-in and Complete would be off, maybe making the game tighter with less dead money in the middle.

 

[bmacpoker]

I feel like the killer should just be a forced bring-in with double (or 1.5) the normal bring in, regardless of the door cards. I think the only weird dynamic that creates is maybe you get more calls than completes you normally would, but then the killer would have an option in that case.

I never looked at the killer posting a doubled blind as a punishment, more like incentive to stay in the hand to create action and keep the kill on. I think it would be effectively the same in stud with an increased and forced bring in.

 

[ChaosRock]

I feel like the killer should just be a forced bring-in with double (or 1.5) the normal bring in, regardless of the door cards. I think the only weird dynamic that creates is maybe you get more calls than completes you normally would, but then the killer would have an option in that case.

Yeah, I'm thinking that should be the way to go, a forced Bring-in or Complete regardless of door cards, keeping last action. The different dynamic as I mention above would be the different ante to bring-in/complete ration, so less dead money on the pot vis-a-vis the steal cost.

I never looked at the killer posting a doubled blind as a punishment, more like incentive to stay in the hand to create action and keep the kill on. I think it would be effectively the same in stud with an increased and forced bring in.

Maybe we think about the Kill in a different way. To me Kill is geared towards putting the Killer in a position to redistribute his 'wealth', which a third blind in a higher stake would do. Or, in the case of Stud, a possible increased and forced Bring-in, regardless of door...

 

[moose]

Antes stay the same. Killer is the mandatory bring in, and may complete the bet, is the way we have always played.

I don't know what you mean about the killer keeping last action. Why would you give last action to the killer, seems like a huge advantage. The bringer-in is 1st action and they have to option to complete. They shouldn't suddenly get a second (last) action just because it is a kill.

 

[ChaosRock]

I don't know what you mean about the killer keeping last action. Why would you give last action to the killer, seems like a huge advantage. The bringer-in is 1st action and they have to option to complete. They shouldn't suddenly get a second (last) action just because it is a kill.

I'm just spitballing. I thought about just making it a mandatory increased bring-in and last action in the same way a bring-in would have if someone completed. Why? Because it's forced at a higher amount regardless of door, and it work almost like a blind. But you're point is taken, Rob... I gotta think more about it...

 

[WedgeRock]

So you're saying

• In non-kill pots, the button post a one-chip ante. Bring in is one chip, complete is 2 chips. Small bet is 2 chips and big bet is 4 chips.
• And in a kill pot, button and killer both post a one-chip ante, and killer automatically has the bring-in (two chips) or complete (four chips).

I think you're talking about $4/$8, so non kill antes and bringins are $2. IMO, halfkill antes/bringins should be $3 (limits are $6/$12) and full kill antes/bringins should be $4 (limits are $8/$16). It would be easier to just to a kill (no half kill) unless you plan to use $1 chips so you can do a $3 ante/bringin on the half kill hands.

EDIT: Maybe don't make the killer post a kill ante for half kill (just one chip from the button) but force the killer to complete (three chips)? Then for the full kill, make the killer post a second ante (two chips), and the complete (four chips)?

 

[ChaosRock]

So you're saying

• In non-kill pots, the button post a one-chip ante. Bring in is one chip, complete is 2 chips. Small bet is 2 chips and big bet is 4 chips.
• And in a kill pot, button and killer both post a one-chip ante, and killer automatically has the bring-in (two chips) or complete (four chips).

No, in non-kill pots the button posts a 2-chip ante, bring-in is 1 chip and complete is 2 chips, SB is 2 chips and Big Bet is 4 chips. Pretty close, LOL!

In a Kill pot, button would post a 2-chip ante, killer posts another 2-chip ante and he also brings-in for 2 chips. If he completes, yes, 4 chips.

For a $4/$8 Limit game with 6 players, button ante should be $6, for 8 players, $8. Ante per player is usually ¼ of SB. Since there's no lack of action in our games, it's easier to make the button ante $4, or 2 chips although either $4, $6 or $8 would work. NEVER less than $4 imo.

 

[WedgeRock]

...so no need for $1 chips to pay a $3 bringing/ante.

 

[ChaosRock]

...so no need for $1 chips to pay a $3 bringing/ante.

No!!!

Unless you change from Button ante to Player ante, then each player tosses a $1 chip in the middle.

 

[bmacpoker]

Antes stay the same. Killer is the mandatory bring in, and may complete the bet, is the way we have always played.

I don't know what you mean about the killer keeping last action. Why would you give last action to the killer, seems like a huge advantage. The bringer-in is 1st action and they have to option to complete. They shouldn't suddenly get a second (last) action just because it is a kill.

It probably feels like the bring in is last to act a lot of times, given no 2 bets or limps. But yeah, I don't think they should be last to act by default.

 

[bergs]

This all seems ridiculous complicated. What’s the argument against doing this? It’s simple and consistent.

Non-kill pots - everyone antes

Kill pots - everyone antes, killer posts double or 1.5 small bet (depending on full vs half kill games) and action starts to left of killer.

 

[CraigT78]

I can't believe that I am voice to texting this, but Bergs is right