OP
OP
Tipping a dealer is voluntary.
If the pizza delivery guy gets tipped, how is that different? It’s a service players are willing to support.
Legalize It (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Taghkanic
- Start date
Tipping a dealer is voluntary.
If the pizza delivery guy gets tipped, how is that different? It’s a service players are willing to support.
OP
OP
Game 1:
No food or drink provided. Players bring their own. No dealer.
Host’s profit: $0
ZOMG THIS IS THE WAY
Game 2:
Food and drink provided. Players voluntarily contribute toward both. Dealer earns tips, voluntarily given (or not) by players, who have chosen to play in this game knowing the setup.
Host’s profit: $0
YOU HAVE COMMITTED A CRIME AND SINNED AGAINST THE GODS OF POKER
No food or drink provided. Players bring their own. No dealer.
Host’s profit: $0
ZOMG THIS IS THE WAY
Game 2:
Food and drink provided. Players voluntarily contribute toward both. Dealer earns tips, voluntarily given (or not) by players, who have chosen to play in this game knowing the setup.
Host’s profit: $0
YOU HAVE COMMITTED A CRIME AND SINNED AGAINST THE GODS OF POKER
Last edited:
OP
OP
Note that in the legal decision cited above, the court appears to condone games run by charitable/not-for-profit organizations (which includes many membership clubs).
Such clubs can and do charge fees for services, but their boards cannot profit from the operation — though they may be reasonably compensated for services if provided at or below market rates. They can also pay employees.
Many U.S. states allow for legal home games (not raked) among friends or family. Other states don't allow them.
Lawmakers in "illegal" states would need to be motivated to change the existing law. In short, they'd need to get something or see some benefit to changing the law in states where home poker is illegal. They'd need a pretty good reason to change the status quo.
And like all politicians, they want to know, "What's in it for me?'
That can be, "What's in it for my state?" (such as increased tax revenue) or "What's in it for me personally as a politician?" (votes from the masses, or better yet, votes from wealthy, powerful donors or organizations backing a change in the law to legalize home poker.)
One of the problems you'll find is that the casino gaming industry (generally) opposes legalization of home poker. They want to be "the only game in town." So if you want to play poker for money, you have to do it inside their casino. And they donate large sums to politicians and have powerful, effective lobbyists, paid for by all the money we lose playing at the casino, even though we all say we win all the time.
Another barrier to legal home poker in many states would be organizations that claim to treat problem gambling and gambling addiction (and make their money from it) They strongly oppose any relaxation of gambling laws anywhere. They'd be perfectly happy if every casino shut down. No horse racing. No sports betting of any kind. No Powerball, Mega Millions, or other lottery tickets. No scratchers. No 50/50 for your local fire company.
Lawmakers in "illegal" states would need to be motivated to change the existing law. In short, they'd need to get something or see some benefit to changing the law in states where home poker is illegal. They'd need a pretty good reason to change the status quo.
And like all politicians, they want to know, "What's in it for me?'
That can be, "What's in it for my state?" (such as increased tax revenue) or "What's in it for me personally as a politician?" (votes from the masses, or better yet, votes from wealthy, powerful donors or organizations backing a change in the law to legalize home poker.)
One of the problems you'll find is that the casino gaming industry (generally) opposes legalization of home poker. They want to be "the only game in town." So if you want to play poker for money, you have to do it inside their casino. And they donate large sums to politicians and have powerful, effective lobbyists, paid for by all the money we lose playing at the casino, even though we all say we win all the time.
Another barrier to legal home poker in many states would be organizations that claim to treat problem gambling and gambling addiction (and make their money from it) They strongly oppose any relaxation of gambling laws anywhere. They'd be perfectly happy if every casino shut down. No horse racing. No sports betting of any kind. No Powerball, Mega Millions, or other lottery tickets. No scratchers. No 50/50 for your local fire company.
OP
OP
Many U.S. states allow for legal home games (not raked) among friends or family. Other states don't allow them.
Lawmakers in "illegal" states would need to be motivated to change the existing law. In short, they'd need to get something or see some benefit to changing the law in states where home poker is illegal. They'd need a pretty good reason to change the status quo.
And like all politicians, they want to know, "What's in it for me?'
That can be, "What's in it for my state?" (such as increased tax revenue) or "What's in it for me personally as a politician?" (votes from the masses, or better yet, votes from wealthy, powerful donors or organizations backing a change in the law to legalize home poker.)
One of the problems you'll find is that the casino gaming industry (generally) opposes legalization of home poker. They want to be "the only game in town." So if you want to play poker for money, you have to do it inside their casino. And they donate large sums to politicians and have powerful, effective lobbyists, paid for by all the money we lose playing at the casino, even though we all say we win all the time.
Another barrier to legal home poker in many states would be organizations that claim to treat problem gambling and gambling addiction (and make their money from it) They strongly oppose any relaxation of gambling laws anywhere. They'd be perfectly happy if every casino shut down. No horse racing. No sports betting of any kind. No Powerball, Mega Millions, or other lottery tickets. No scratchers. No 50/50 for your local fire company.
These are sound points and things to consider.
On the last one, maybe the best rebuttal to those concerned about problem gambling is precisely to cite some of the forms of totally degenerate gambling you listed. Lotteries (not to mention slots and most table games in casinos, such as roulette) are overtly rigged against players.
In such degenerate games, the more you play, the more guaranteed it is that you will lose money. The game is inherently and openly rigged in favor of the house.
Mqnehile in poker, the more you play the more your results correlate to your actual skill level (since poker variance smooths out over time).
We each may know 1-2 people who ought to quit poker... not because they are unlucky, but because they suck at it. Meanwhile there is not a single person alive who plays the lottery or slot machines who should objectively should not quit.
So why go after a relatively benign and skill-based game among friends or even just acquaintances, when billions are being blown on other games which people cannot possibly win?
As far as monied interests: This is true of all issues in the United States, where money now (legally!) pollutes most every vote, and our legislators—per a Princeton study a decade ago—are almost impervious to popular opinion. However, this is not a reason not to try. The people do prevail occasionally. And I bet the number of people who would cheer more legalization of private/home games far outweighs those who would be angry about it (with another large bloc not really caring, but probably leaning toward more freedom/less regulation).
In other words, it would require (a) lining up convincing arguments, (b) lining up constituencies who would provide some support behind them, (c) consulting with legal experts to work out the fine details, and finally (d) doing the actual lobbying.
OP
OP
P.S. I suspect that in many states, the best way to accomplish this would be via a ballot initiative (a referendum which would appear on the actual ballot statewide).
Unfortunately, some states like mine create major hurdles to getting such initiatives on the ballot. But it can be done. Elected officials might be more likely to let the people decide and wash their hands of the issue (so as to avoid flack from big donors) than to actually do the work of moving it through their legislature and wrangling votes among their peers.
The thing about ballot initiatives is that many voters don't even bother with them. If you have a million people voting, you might only get 20% of them casting a vote on the iniativies (which are usually really dull stuff about state bond requirements and the like). So the group which is most motivated and able to get people to turn over their ballot, read and vote on the initiative usually wins.
Unfortunately, some states like mine create major hurdles to getting such initiatives on the ballot. But it can be done. Elected officials might be more likely to let the people decide and wash their hands of the issue (so as to avoid flack from big donors) than to actually do the work of moving it through their legislature and wrangling votes among their peers.
The thing about ballot initiatives is that many voters don't even bother with them. If you have a million people voting, you might only get 20% of them casting a vote on the iniativies (which are usually really dull stuff about state bond requirements and the like). So the group which is most motivated and able to get people to turn over their ballot, read and vote on the initiative usually wins.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
The fact the comments are starting show sides around this point, is part of why I believe this discussion has limits without becoming a full blown political argument.
That said, in the effort to build up and not just criticize. Assuming the goal is to come up with a rallying point, I think calling for an end to poker raids, full stop, makes sense except to those "moralist" groups @BGinGA cited above.
FWIW, I never even implied that one was THE WAY and the other way was a CRIME AGAINST POKER. I realize other discussions have devolved that way. But I'm just saying that they're two very different models and since one of them operates much closer to the for-profit casino/club models (except of course for the bottom line,) that they shouldn't be grouped together for the purposes of legislation.
Broski
Pair
FWIW. It absolutely disgusts me that technically I'm a criminal for meeting up with my buddies, having some laughs, drinking a couple of beers while playing some cards on a random Saturday night. Casinos have their place, and that's fine by me, but I generally don't want to go there to play poker. I prefer lower stakes where it's fun for everyone, and no one is going to lose the rent check. That is where I really believe us and them differ. They could care less what the true personal cost is for their money to come in. My wife worked in the players club of one for a while and cannot count how many times she saw people come in, lose everything they had to the point of coming to the players club to cash in their players club point for cash to get a cab home. At a home game amongst friends/acquaintances, that just doesn't happen.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
It really depends on your perspective on how much people own their own spaces.
I am doing my best not to reveal too much that would be improper outside of the politics forum but I just see politics in every aspect of this.
If the purpose of the thread is to identify a rallying issue, the simpler, the better.
Broski
Pair
Hey, I'm in. And I agree on the personal accountability. Let's find a starting point and I'm all over it. Would love to see it change here.
Meh - it’s illegal to drive faster then the speed limit, spit on the sidewalk, cross the road anywhere other then a cross walk, and in many states to have “relations” other then missionary style - lol.
I don’t feel guilty or like a criminal for doing any of those
Broski
Pair
Touche.Meh - it’s illegal to drive faster then the speed limit, spit on the sidewalk, cross the road anywhere other then a cross walk, and in many states to have “relations” other then missionary style - lol.
I don’t feel guilty or criminal about doing any of those
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I thought that was the purpose of global warming - to make Canada livable. Limit snow to under 2" and less than 2 weeks a year, and I'll sing O Canada outside of a hockey arena.
That said, I'm obviously a southerner (now). When I moved to Tennessee, the lottery was still illegal. There was a push for it's legality as people jammed roadways to get tickets when the lottery topped a number that was deemed newsworthy.
The religious right pushed back hard. Billboards in high traffic areas declaring eternity in hell if you did not vote No on the proposition. These weren't casinos or monied interests pushing back, this was straight from the pulpit.
Yes, I'd like to see home poker legalized, but grassroots pushing against the will of God will never work in some states. You'd have a better chance getting a casino to open, because they have money that can speak almost as loud as the church.
Yup - ^^
The proposition to allow liquor sales in my town (TX) was going to result in gang land warfare and drive by shootings, prostitution on every corner, and ultimately Mafia rule - lol.
The proposition thankfully passed, 3 years later no gangland violence, no prostitution, the pillars of the universe did not crumble, and as of yet - no Don.
Has that changed their minds, nope - it’s still comin’ and we’re all going to hell in a hand basket - lol.
Sal Bandini
Pair
You're selling food to people. Gonna need to see a permit for that.
OP
OP
Per above, U.S. casino gambling is legal in 48 states, neither in the Deep South. And lotteries are legal in 45 states, only one of the latter in said South, though lottery tickets are a far more degenerate form of gambling.
In other words, the desire for State money has overcome any religious lobby/bloc almost everywhere. Only the Mormons in Utah and Hawaiian authorities shut casinos out. (What’s up with Hawaii?)
Home and other private poker has the more significant hurdle of overcoming both the gaming industry and the lack of an obvious revenue stream for State governments. I’m sure none of us want to file tax forms to operate a “legal” home game.
As suggested above, it might be simpler to argue the right to simple personal freedom in one’s own home than differentiate poker as a game of skill, etc.
That said, many things are not legal in our homes. You can’t legally invite your friends over for a BYO heroin party. You can’t (in most zoned communities) operate an unlicensed day care or truck repair shop out of a home or its garage.
So poker would have to be differentiated: as not-a-business, recreational, social. In some places this is already the de facto reality unless you get unlucky / have most neighbors. Plus the prohibitions against dealer tips and other overboard definitions of rake to include sharing the cost of pizzas etc.
In other words, the desire for State money has overcome any religious lobby/bloc almost everywhere. Only the Mormons in Utah and Hawaiian authorities shut casinos out. (What’s up with Hawaii?)
Home and other private poker has the more significant hurdle of overcoming both the gaming industry and the lack of an obvious revenue stream for State governments. I’m sure none of us want to file tax forms to operate a “legal” home game.
As suggested above, it might be simpler to argue the right to simple personal freedom in one’s own home than differentiate poker as a game of skill, etc.
That said, many things are not legal in our homes. You can’t legally invite your friends over for a BYO heroin party. You can’t (in most zoned communities) operate an unlicensed day care or truck repair shop out of a home or its garage.
So poker would have to be differentiated: as not-a-business, recreational, social. In some places this is already the de facto reality unless you get unlucky / have most neighbors. Plus the prohibitions against dealer tips and other overboard definitions of rake to include sharing the cost of pizzas etc.
Bluegrass Poker
Flush
My little eastern KY hometown finally realized alcohol sales for first time since prohibition in May. Propostion failed numerous times over last few decades. Finally passed because the 2 longest serving most influential pastors finally retired and didn’t fight against it.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I need to know where in Tennessee there is a casino.
Same in Georgia.
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