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Limit Sets, Limit Sets, MORE Limit Sets!!! (5 Viewers)

bluegill said:
ES micro limit set.....:wtf:View attachment 621537

Thinking of relabeling these SBs for the $5 though...
View attachment 621539
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@bluegill your $.25 limit set is insane!! Congratulations!! Kind of makes my idea look stupid! Lol
20210107_170811.jpg

We are just using random racks of Casino Hot Stamp quarters so each person gets a different rack to start! Hopefully it will continue to grow as @Beakertwang would like to use it for $.75/$1.50 limit, sounds like a ton of fun but will take lots of chips. Also planning to design a $5 white MSK plaque for the $5 value chip here.

Also a huge thank you for your help with the impossible rack to finish in this pic! Quite a few dark racks here, really cool to get another bright one finished up! A Day Green rack and I think we are in business!!

I will probably play brown since I can get a complete rebuy and look like I am still on my first rack! Lol
 
bluegill said:
ES micro limit set.....:wtf:View attachment 621537

Thinking of relabeling these SBs for the $5 though...
View attachment 621539
Click to expand...
See this is what makes PCF so great. You have a set worth well over $10k that you use for a $25 LIMIT game. Makes me shed a tear. Any clown can use dice chips for a $10k buy in game. Granted, there are plenty of folks that can and do both, but I really appreciate this end of the spectrum. Well done and thanks for sharing.
 
Highli99 said:
See this is what makes PCF so great. You have a set worth well over $10k that you use for a $25 LIMIT game. Makes me shed a tear. Any clown can use dice chips for a $10k buy in game. Granted, there are plenty of folks that can and do both, but I really appreciate this end of the spectrum. Well done and thanks for sharing.
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Pushing $4k in my ugly quarter set so far buddy!! Donk life!! Lol
 
Ben8257 said:
@bluegill your $.25 limit set is insane!! Congratulations!! Kind of makes my idea look stupid! Lol
View attachment 621548
We are just using random racks of Casino Hot Stamp quarters so each person gets a different rack to start! Hopefully it will continue to grow as @Beakertwang would like to use it for $.75/$1.50 limit, sounds like a ton of fun but will take lots of chips. Also planning to design a $5 white MSK plaque for the $5 value chip here.

Also a huge thank you for your help with the impossible rack to finish in this pic! Quite a few dark racks here, really cool to get another bright one finished up! A Day Green rack and I think we are in business!!

I will probably play brown since I can get a complete rebuy and look like I am still on my first rack! Lol
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I’m glad you’re doing this. I’m toying with:
1. Same base color (CPC light green?), different spots per player.
2. Different base chips, same spot (probably CPC) per player.
3. Same chip (CPC or Matsui) for everyone.

I have a 25¢/50¢ set, perfect for one group of players, but will need something higher once I start up again with another group.

Will follow your adventures closely.
 
Someone please check my thinking. I'm thinking of doing:
  • a 960/30/10 breakdown
  • non-denominated betting (x), value (20x), and rebuy (100x) chips
  • 2-chip/4-chip setup
I know it's not a "normal" 900/100 or 900/80/20 breakdown for a 1k-piece set, but my math indicated that this breakdown would cover 8 players for more than 3 full buy-ins per player (25BB) and allow for up to 120 workhorse chips to start. So it leans more towards workhorse/betting chips, and less towards value/rebuy, but it still covers more than 3 buy-ins per player. While an individual player might be in for more than 3 rebuys, when would a full table ever need 3 bullets each? And if EVERY player were in for 3 bullets, the stakes of the game should probably go up...which can easily be handled by a non-denom set.

tl;dr a 960/30/10 non-denom breakdown would be perfectly playable (even if not standard) for a single table 8-handed game, right?
 
dmoney said:
Someone please check my thinking. I'm thinking of doing:
  • a 960/30/10 breakdown
  • non-denominated betting (x), value (20x), and rebuy (100x) chips
  • 2-chip/4-chip setup
I know it's not a "normal" 900/100 or 900/80/20 breakdown for a 1k-piece set, but my math indicated that this breakdown would cover 8 players for more than 3 full buy-ins per player (25BB) and allow for up to 120 workhorse chips to start. So it leans more towards workhorse/betting chips, and less towards value/rebuy, but it still covers more than 3 buy-ins per player. While an individual player might be in for more than 3 rebuys, when would a full table ever need 3 bullets each? And if EVERY player were in for 3 bullets, the stakes of the game should probably go up...which can easily be handled by a non-denom set.

tl;dr a 960/30/10 non-denom breakdown would be perfectly playable (even if not standard) for a single table 8-handed game, right?
Click to expand...

There are no rules for this.
I have played more than a million hands live limit over the years so I think that qualifies for a valid opinion....
I am assuming that when you say a "2-chip/4-chip setup" you mean small bets are 2 chips and big bets are 4 chips, right? 1st comment is that normally anyone in the poker business would call this a 2 chip structure vs a 3 chip structure or a 4 chip structure. Typically Card Rooms try and shy away from a 2 chip structure in Limit Games. The reason is they do not work as well as 3 or 4 chip structure games. I know it seems silly, but people like to see lots of chips in the pot and so do the Card Rooms as it promotes fun and loose play which is good for the Card Room as well as good for the Game. 2 Chip structure games do happen live, but they are less common for the above reason. Card Rooms stay away (Usually) from 5 Chip games too as this gets to be a lot of chips and especially if the game is a Split Pot game like O8 or Stud 8. In Split Pot Games the dealer is frequently splitting pots and this slows the game down plenty without getting into a 5 chip game.

Here are examples of 2, 3 & 4 Chip Structure Games
2 chip structure = 2/4 limit game with the Small Blind = $1 and the Big Blind = $2. Preflop and Flop bets are $2 and Turn and River Bets are $4
3 chip structure = 3/6 limit game with the Small Blind = $1 or $2 and the Big Blind = $3. Preflop and Flop bets are $3 and Turn and River Bets are $6
3 chip structure = 15/30 limit game with the Small Blind = $10 and the Big Blind = $15. Preflop and Flop bets are $15 and Turn and River Bets are $30
4 chip structure = 8/16 limit game with the Small Blind = $4 and the Big Blind = $8. Preflop and Flop bets are $8 and Turn and River Bets are $16
4 chip structure = 20/40 limit game with the Small Blind = $10 and the Big Blind = $20. Preflop and Flop bets are $20 and Turn and River Bets are $40
As the game gets bigger the pattern stays the same & the chips that get used are the obvious denominations. In 2/4, 3/6 & 4/8 they use a $1 chip. In 6/12 & 8/16 they use a $2 chip, in 15/30 & 20/40 they use a $5 chip and then for 30/60 & 40/80 they use a $10 chip etc. Unless it is a Card Room that doesn't know what they are doing they will follow this pattern exclusively.

In a live game there is no "normal breakdown" as 95% of all chips in any game are the main chip of that game. In fact, any card room that is any good at all will insist that you convert your chips into what ever the main chip is for that game. For example, if you are playing 20/40 then almost all the chips on the table will be $5 chips. I do see the advantage of at least 1 larger denomination chip being in play though for a home game and most people are not going to have the necessary number of chips to have all 1 denomination.

Lets do an example for you with your breakdown:
Lets say you are wanting to play 4/8 limit with your set. In a 2 or 3 chip structure people typically buy in for about 1 rack and in a 4 Chip structure people typically buy in for 2 or more racks, so since we are playing 4/8 lets call it 2 racks. That is 200 x $1 chips x 8 Players =1600 chips players just to cover initial buy ins. That is a lot of chips and would not be totally necessary, but I feel like you HAVE to have at least 1 rack/player in a limit game otherwise everyone is exchanging chips way too often. You can always have more and 1.5 racks/player or even 2 racks/player would be better. The whole reason for having the chips being all the same is to speed up the game and the more frequently chips are getting exchanged for other denominations the more it slows down the game. If you gave everyone a rack and called the main denomination $1 and you are playing 4/8 and everyone still buys in for an equivalent of 2 racks and your next higher denomination is 20x the main then with 30 of those that would be like 30 x 20 x $1 or $600 & the x100 chips would be 10 x 100 x $100 or another $1000 + your main chips of $960. This gets you to $2560. In a full ring game this puts you at an average of 2650/9 or 284 chips/player (that is if they were all $1 chips and you are playing 4/8 - 4 chip game)

The question becomes is that enough?
Well if you were using your mentioned 900-100 breakdown with 900 x $1 & 100 x $20 or $25 then you would have the equivalent of $900 + $2000 or 2900chips/9 players or 322 chips or dollars per player. hmmm. 900/80/20 would be 900 *1 + 80 *20 + 20 * 100 = 900 + 1600 + 2000 = $4500 or equivalent to 4500 chips/9 players or 500 chips/player

I think my answer is that it depends a little on your game. In a wild 4 chip game I have seen maybe 1 or 2 players at the table with 2000 or more chips in front of them and maybe 4 or 5 more with 3-4 racks in front and everyone else with a minimum of 2 racks. That could be as much as 2 *2000 + 5 * 400 +2 * 200 or 6400 chips or 6400/9 =711 chips/player on the table. I know that is rare, but it can happen in a wild game that lasts a long time. In a home game people are going to run out of money and those seats won't get filled like they would in a Card Room so this would not happen nearly as often. In a wilder game and especially if you plan on using a 4 chip structure I think you would be better off to have a few more bigger chips available. In a tame game and especially in a 2 chip game or even in a 3 chip game you are much less likely to run into trouble.

After talking myself through this whole thing I would say your idea is a bad idea. I think you should go with the 900/80/20 breakdown. There is not that much of an advantage having those few extra chips in the main denomination doing it your way, and you are shorting yourself some of the time which would be very inconvenient. Doing it your way is a bad risk/reward scenario.
 
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@Nanook Thank you for your detailed answer! I want to be clear about what I'm thinking so I'll lay it out below to make sure! And I have read the advice thread.

This is how I would spread this hypothetical $4/$8 game, with a 2-chip structure, with this set:
  • The betting chip would always be 1/4 of the big bet, determined before the game begins
  • Each betting chip would be $2 ($1920)
  • Each 20x chip would be worth $40 ($1200)
  • Each 100x chip would be worth $200 ($2000)
  • Total bank would be $5,120 - $640 per player at $4/$8 stakes, which seems like plenty, imo
  • 8 players buy-in for $200+ (25BB+) - one rack of chips each, with 8 barrels ($320) remaining for bigger buy ins/top ups
  • 20x get put in play after all betting chips are out - used for rebuys/change making with big stacks
  • ditto for 100x chips
I agree that having more betting chips, and perhaps more 20x chips would be ideal, but I think it's quite playable. But since this is my first limit set, I open to feedback! And to be clear is it a "that'll work, but it's not perfect" bad idea, or "that's an awful idea run for the hills" bad idea?
 
@BGinGA regarding my post(s) above, would a non-denom 960/30/10 breakdown (x/20x/100x) be functional for a single 8-handed table, using a 2-chip structure?
 
dmoney said:
@Nanook Thank you for your detailed answer! I want to be clear about what I'm thinking so I'll lay it out below to make sure! And I have read the advice thread.

This is how I would spread this hypothetical $4/$8 game, with a 2-chip structure, with this set:
  • The betting chip would always be 1/4 of the big bet, determined before the game begins
  • Each betting chip would be $2 ($1920)
  • Each 20x chip would be worth $40 ($1200)
  • Each 100x chip would be worth $200 ($2000)
  • Total bank would be $5,120 - $640 per player at $4/$8 stakes, which seems like plenty, imo
  • 8 players buy-in for $200+ (25BB+) - one rack of chips each, with 8 barrels ($320) remaining for bigger buy ins/top ups
  • 20x get put in play after all betting chips are out - used for rebuys/change making with big stacks
  • ditto for 100x chips
I agree that having more betting chips, and perhaps more 20x chips would be ideal, but I think it's quite playable. But since this is my first limit set, I open to feedback! And to be clear is it a "that'll work, but it's not perfect" bad idea, or "that's an awful idea run for the hills" bad idea?
Click to expand...

- What you are describing will work, but it is not the best idea for a few reasons. #1 is as I described above and for the reasons laid out above a 4/8 limit game should be played with $1 chips and not $2 chips ie a 4 chip structure and not a 2 chip structure.
- #2 is basically because of #1. If you ONLY use a 2 chip structure game your idea will work better just purely on the number of chips that people will need to actually play the game, however again because of the reasons I described above a 2 chip structure is not the best and that is why it is not common in a Card Room or Casino.

After Playing literally tens of thousands of hours of limit, if I were to buy a set of chips that I was going to use for limit and I had to limit myself to 1000 chips I would use the 900/80/20 ratio. I personally don't like Non Denominated chips, but it does give more flexibility so you can make the game bigger or smaller depending on the crowd you have, so I get it so I might be persuaded to use non-denominated chips. I could NOT, however, be persuaded to use your breakdown of chips.
 
dmoney said:
@BGinGA regarding my post(s) above, would a non-denom 960/30/10 breakdown (x/20x/100x) be functional for a single 8-handed table, using a 2-chip structure?
Click to expand...

I certainly wouldn't use chip values for weird amounts that no-one is used to like $40 and $200. It just invites bank errors if people miscalculate their stacks. You could go with one denom and let cash ($20s) play on the table. Or go with 2 denoms $2 and $20 and let cash ($100s) play.
 
Nanook said:
- What you are describing will work, but it is not the best idea for a few reasons. #1 is as I described above and for the reasons laid out above a 4/8 limit game should be played with $1 chips and not $2 chips ie a 4 chip structure and not a 2 chip structure.
Click to expand...
I've read what you've said (as well as others) and I appreciate your tens of thousands of hours of experience. I maybe have 50 hours of live limit experience. But it was mostly in a $2/4 game played with $2 chips (and a few $1 chips for small blinds, chopped pots, and tipping.) It always seemed fine to me. I accept that casinos and players alike believe that more chips equal bigger games. I accept that people believe this, but since I'm not influenced by that, I still question how true that is. But that's not my point.
My point, or my question, is if a one chip or two chip structure might be better for home games, where you have players who aren't good at dealing, much less experienced with dealing or playing limit games. I do plan on trying to host a limit game this year, with (presumably) non-limit playing players. And I'm trying to figure out the best way to do it. And I feel like if I give them fifty cent chips and tell them they'll have to use four of them for a min bet, I'm going to get blank stares.
It will be a chore to get NLHE players to give limit games a shot and my concern is that 3 chip and 4 chip structures will seem confusing and unnecessary and not lend credibility to the idea that limit is cool. But I'm sure part of that is my skepticism regarding 3 and 4 chip structures. That and I can't imagine most of the guys I play with trying to award a quartered pot with 102 chips in it.
 
moose said:
I certainly wouldn't use chip values for weird amounts that no-one is used to like $40 and $200.
Click to expand...
This idea was borrowed from another thread - the 20x chip represents a barrel and the 100x chip is a rack when making change...those chips would never actually be in play. They’re just value storage and would only have to be “calculated” at cash out.
 
upNdown said:
..........But it was mostly in a $2/4 game played with $2 chips (and a few $1 chips for small blinds, chopped pots, and tipping.) It always seemed fine to me. I accept that casinos and players alike believe that more chips equal bigger games. I accept that people believe this, but since I'm not influenced by that, I still question how true that is.
Click to expand...
1st point here is that it is not that you want bigger pots, you want more fun for the weaker players and so do the Card Rooms. Weaker players keep coming back for more this way

upNdown said:
But that's not my point.
My point, or my question, is if a one chip or two chip structure might be better for home games, where you have players who aren't good at dealing, much less experienced with dealing or playing limit games. I do plan on trying to host a limit game this year, with (presumably) non-limit playing players. And I'm trying to figure out the best way to do it. And I feel like if I give them fifty cent chips and tell them they'll have to use four of them for a min bet, I'm going to get blank stares.
Click to expand...
a 1 or 2 chip structure is not more fun just like a tough game is not more fun than a wild and crazy game.

Players catch on quickly to the betting pattern in limit and your players will too. There is a reason they do it the way they do.

Average home game players do not make good dealers. When I host a game I either get a dealer to deal for tips or deal myself and use a dealer button just like they do in a card room.


upNdown said:
It will be a chore to get NLHE players to give limit games a shot and my concern is that 3 chip and 4 chip structures will seem confusing and unnecessary and not lend credibility to the idea that limit is cool. But I'm sure part of that is my skepticism regarding 3 and 4 chip structures.
Click to expand...
your right, nlhe players are mostly very anti limit. I believe that it mostly comes from ignorance and also because the only game they have ever seen on TV is nl.

upNdown said:
That and I can't imagine most of the guys I play with trying to award a quartered pot with 102 chips in it.
Click to expand...
This is not something to be concerned about. The only games that happens in is split pot games like O8 & stud 8. If you are playing mixed games then you really should either a) know the games well and deal yourself or b) hire a dealer that knows what they are doing. Otherwise just stick to limit hold-em as it is way less confusing.

I get your point though and the answer lies in not having everyone deal. Most players are bad players and worse dealers.
 
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upNdown said:
I've read what you've said (as well as others) and I appreciate your tens of thousands of hours of experience. I maybe have 50 hours of live limit experience. But it was mostly in a $2/4 game played with $2 chips (and a few $1 chips for small blinds, chopped pots, and tipping.) It always seemed fine to me. I accept that casinos and players alike believe that more chips equal bigger games. I accept that people believe this, but since I'm not influenced by that, I still question how true that is. But that's not my point.
My point, or my question, is if a one chip or two chip structure might be better for home games, where you have players who aren't good at dealing, much less experienced with dealing or playing limit games. I do plan on trying to host a limit game this year, with (presumably) non-limit playing players. And I'm trying to figure out the best way to do it. And I feel like if I give them fifty cent chips and tell them they'll have to use four of them for a min bet, I'm going to get blank stares.
It will be a chore to get NLHE players to give limit games a shot and my concern is that 3 chip and 4 chip structures will seem confusing and unnecessary and not lend credibility to the idea that limit is cool. But I'm sure part of that is my skepticism regarding 3 and 4 chip structures. That and I can't imagine most of the guys I play with trying to award a quartered pot with 102 chips in it.
Click to expand...
I introduced Limit to my NL players. From a betting perspective, they adapted very quickly. We had 3 tables going, all with different structures (2/4, 3/6 and 4/8). There were no issues. Their strategy may have been off, but they didn't have less fun.
 
upNdown said:
I've read what you've said (as well as others) and I appreciate your tens of thousands of hours of experience. I maybe have 50 hours of live limit experience. But it was mostly in a $2/4 game played with $2 chips (and a few $1 chips for small blinds, chopped pots, and tipping.) It always seemed fine to me. I accept that casinos and players alike believe that more chips equal bigger games. I accept that people believe this, but since I'm not influenced by that, I still question how true that is. But that's not my point.
My point, or my question, is if a one chip or two chip structure might be better for home games, where you have players who aren't good at dealing, much less experienced with dealing or playing limit games. I do plan on trying to host a limit game this year, with (presumably) non-limit playing players. And I'm trying to figure out the best way to do it. And I feel like if I give them fifty cent chips and tell them they'll have to use four of them for a min bet, I'm going to get blank stares.
It will be a chore to get NLHE players to give limit games a shot and my concern is that 3 chip and 4 chip structures will seem confusing and unnecessary and not lend credibility to the idea that limit is cool. But I'm sure part of that is my skepticism regarding 3 and 4 chip structures. That and I can't imagine most of the guys I play with trying to award a quartered pot with 102 chips in it.
Click to expand...

my group plays $4/8 with $2 chips and it works great. Lots of chips in the pot but stacks and betting are easy and manageable.

we played $3/6 with $1 chips once and they did’t like it at all. Several people asked where the $5 chips where for turn and river bets that were capped.
 
Nanook said:
1st point here is that it is not that you want bigger pots, you want more fun for the weaker players and so do the Card Rooms. Weaker players keep coming back for more this way

a 1 or 2 chip structure is not more fun just like a tough game is not more fun than a wild and crazy game.

Players catch on quickly to the betting pattern in limit and your players will too. There is a reason they do it the way they do.

Average home game players do not make good dealers. When I host a game I either get a dealer to deal for tips or deal myself and use a dealer button just like they do in a card room.


your right, nlhe players are mostly very anti limit. I believe that it mostly comes from ignorance and also because the only game they have ever seen on TV is nl.

This is not something to be concerned about. The only games that happens in is split pot games like O8 & stud 8. If you are playing mixed games then you really should either a) know the games well and deal yourself or b) hire a dealer that knows what they are doing. Otherwise just stick to limit hold-em as it is way less confusing.

I get your point though and the answer lies in not having everyone deal. Most players are bad players and worse dealers.
Click to expand...
I appreciate all your answers except stick to limit holdem. I wouldn't even try to convince my NLHE guys to play limit holdem. I'm not saying LHE is no fun, but it's been said.I just feel like playing limit is the only way to get them to ply mixed games without taking all their money.
 
dmoney said:
So to my previous question - would my proposed 960/30/10 non-denominated set be playable?

@upNdown @Rhodeman77 @Poker Zombie
Click to expand...
How many players? Which chip structure are you using 2/4, 3/6, 4/8? Take the last number of the structure and multiply it by 4 then by 3 that will represent all streets capped and give you the total number of chips that can be expended in a hand. So depending 48, 72 or 96. Again number of players makes a difference but your set could really only accommodate 9 players with each getting a rack. It’ll work but this situation can occur and you’ll be making change to the loser of the pot.
 
Forty4 said:
How many players? Which chip structure are you using 2/4, 3/6, 4/8? Take the last number of the structure and multiply it by 4 then by 3 that will represent all streets capped and give you the total number of chips that can be expended in a hand. So depending 48, 72 or 96. Again number of players makes a difference but your set could really only accommodate 9 players with each getting a rack. It’ll work but this situation can occur and you’ll be making change to the loser of the pot.
Click to expand...
2/4 structure, max 8 players, preferred 6-7 players. Set would be for mixed & circus games.

960 betting chips allows for up to:
  • 8 players - 120 workhorse chips per player
  • 7 - 136 chips/per
  • 6 - 160/per
With the 30 "value" chips (one 20x chip = one barrel), and 10 "rebuy" chips (one 100x chip = one rack) being used for rebuys, add-ons and change-making with the big stacks.
 
Okay, I've been lurking this thread a little and you guys are saying you actually need around 3000 chips to make a limit game more than "work"?
 
dmoney said:
2/4 structure, max 8 players, preferred 6-7 players. Set would be for mixed & circus games.

960 betting chips allows for up to:
  • 8 players - 120 workhorse chips per player
  • 7 - 136 chips/per
  • 6 - 160/per
With the 30 "value" chips (one 20x chip = one barrel), and 10 "rebuy" chips (one 100x chip = one rack) being used for rebuys, add-ons and change-making with the big stacks.
Click to expand...
You could feasibly do a 1chip/2chip structure too if it came to that. Your blinds would just be 1 chip. It's just not as splashy that way
 
OfficerLovejoy said:
Okay, I've been lurking this thread a little and you guys are saying you actually need around 3000 chips to make a limit game more than "work"?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. 2/4 can be Done with a rack per person. 3/6 is stretching a rack per person and 4/8 I would want at least 2 minimum or your gonna be making a lot of change
 

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