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Missing USPS package. Help please! (1 Viewer)

I wonder this every time I ship out another package of chips. What if they actually never show up. Who is expected to take the loss on the value of the chips? What is a fair solution between buyer / seller?
 
Dodger said:
Not sure whether to laugh, cry, or throw something...
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Normally I would call usps and ask about the package to at least put it on their radar.

but these are Cuban cigars and I didn’t know if there any import or customs issues. I saw it was “tendered to military agent” and I was like “oh shieet” so I left it alone hahha.

But I checked it this morning and it popped up at my local distribution center.


5CA31F7F-2BC3-49D0-AD4B-3B65A85FF934.png




So I think the real takeaway is if your package is lost or isn’t showing tracking....post it on PCF lol
 
LotsOfChips said:
Good rant! While I agree with 99.95%of what you said, unfortunately (as I understand it) the receiver has no standing with USPS to initiate a claim, so the shipper does bear a little bit of responsibility to assist if the package does truly get lost.

BUT (and this is a YUUUUGE BUT), the receiver HAS to be patient to allow the package to get through the system, and HAS to understand that the present volume of packages (resulting from COVID lockdowns and increased online shopping) and the decreased services at USPS (resulting from COVID lockdowns and government policies) means that packages take WAY longer to arrive than they used to. Patience is the key. If it hasn't arrived after 4-5 weeks, then MAYBE it is time to contact the seller for assistance, or maybe it is time to cool your jets and wait another week.
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The responsibility is actually on the receiver, not the shipper. Let me give you an example. I recently shipped an item, and the package was torn open during shipping. One part was missing from the shipment. The receiver cried about it, so I finally opened a claim against my better judgment. Sure enough - USPS wants pictures of the damaged package, etc. I asked the receiver for pics. They had thrown the package away. Because I could not provide proof, USPS denied my claim. According to USPS, both the shipper and receiver can file a claim. It’s not only for the shipper to do. Never again will I take responsibility for a claim. Interestingly enough, when most businesses ship b2b, the shipper usually has a clause in the purchase agreement that once an item ships they are no longer responsible for the shipment. The company I work for had a whole pallet get lost by UPS freight. The vendor said that we were SOL when UPS said they couldn’t find it. It’s quite normal in the business world, but individual buyers don’t know better and will never accept that they are expected to lose money if something goes wrong. It’s always the other guy who is supposed to lose money
 
coolguy101 said:
I recently shipped an item, and the package was torn open during shipping. One part was missing from the shipment. The receiver cried about it, so I finally opened a claim against my better judgment..... Never again will I take responsibility for a claim... individual buyers don’t know better and will never accept that they are expected to lose money if something goes wrong. It’s always the other guy who is supposed to lose money
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Cool, great reminder to never do business with you...
 
Agreeing as to who is responsible for loss or damage should not be a contentious issue. It could go either way. All that's necessary is for both parties to agree up front. It should be no more difficult to agree on who bears the risk than it is to agree on a price. There's no particular moral weight on it being either party.

There's also nothing wrong with people having different expectations as to who bears the risk by default in the lack of an explicit agreement. People come from different backgrounds and are used to different practices. If two people have different expectations and don't agree on something explicitly then there's going to be trouble should there be a loss, and that's unfortunate. But it's not a moral issue. It's kind of silly to refuse to do business with someone over a difference in expectations that could be resolved without rancor by a single sentence in an email prior to exchanging money and goods.
 
From a legal perspective, in the US at least, the risk of loss defaults to being on the receiver once the goods are delivered to the carrier. People are obviously free to change that default rule by agreement, but I just always assume that in my dealings on PCF unless otherwise specified the risk of loss is on the buyer, not the seller, once the chips are delivered to the carrier.
 
Hornet said:
From a legal perspective, in the US at least, the risk of loss defaults to being on the receiver once the goods are delivered to the carrier. People are obviously free to change that default rule by agreement, but I just always assume that in my dealings on PCF unless otherwise specified the risk of loss is on the buyer, not the seller, once the chips are delivered to the carrier.
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I also wouldn’t expect a seller to take financial responsibility for a lost package but I would expect the seller to do what’s in their power to help out i.e. file a claim. Dunno if there’s anything else to do. Luckily nothing’s gone missing for me neither as sender nor recipient.
 
coolguy101 said:
The responsibility is actually on the receiver, not the shipper. Let me give you an example. I recently shipped an item, and the package was torn open during shipping. One part was missing from the shipment. The receiver cried about it, so I finally opened a claim against my better judgment. Sure enough - USPS wants pictures of the damaged package, etc. I asked the receiver for pics. They had thrown the package away. Because I could not provide proof, USPS denied my claim. According to USPS, both the shipper and receiver can file a claim. It’s not only for the shipper to do. Never again will I take responsibility for a claim. Interestingly enough, when most businesses ship b2b, the shipper usually has a clause in the purchase agreement that once an item ships they are no longer responsible for the shipment. The company I work for had a whole pallet get lost by UPS freight. The vendor said that we were SOL when UPS said they couldn’t find it. It’s quite normal in the business world, but individual buyers don’t know better and will never accept that they are expected to lose money if something goes wrong. It’s always the other guy who is supposed to lose money
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USPS requires the party who has the original mailing receipt to make the claim. Would the receiver have that?

https://www.usps.com/help/claims.htm
 
Hornet said:
From a legal perspective, in the US at least, the risk of loss defaults to being on the receiver once the goods are delivered to the carrier. People are obviously free to change that default rule by agreement, but I just always assume that in my dealings on PCF unless otherwise specified the risk of loss is on the buyer, not the seller, once the chips are delivered to the carrier.
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This does not seem to be the case by default ...
I have been shipping 100 to 200 packages a week for my business for years, and I can tell you that all Credit card companies, Amazon etc will all always side with the buyer if a seller essentially tells them , "Go pound sand, I mailed it on the 5th & that's the end of it on my end"
The seller is the shipper of record, and "hired" the package carrier of their choosing as his agent to get it to the buyer.
The seller also packed the item, labeled and sealed the package ( correctly or incorrectly), may or may not have purchased insurance, the buyer has no control over any of this ...
As a buyer, at least in a retail, non private transaction, if you order something and simply never receive it , it's of course not "your fault" you didn't get it, , you are paying for the seller to deliver the as described item to You, not just to his local UPS store, if it is lost or damaged, they did not fulfill their end of the transaction, and must refund or replace the item, not you.
In private transactions such as chip sales here, I have always either just listed, and know it's my responsibility if something were to happen , or put very clearly in the listing that I am not responsible after the item is scanned as picked up ...
If someone hires & pays "Bob the contractor" to remodel their kitchen, & the house is set on fire or the stove is stolen, "Bob" can't say to the buyer that he's keeping the money, not responsible since he sub-hired "charlies's plumbing" ... It's up to Bob to make his customer whole, and go after Charlie himself ...
 
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eBay makes it clear it’s the sellers responsibility until the item is delivered. Insurance is optional but a wise investment on items not easily replaced
 
Blaster said:
This does not seem to be the case by default ...
I have been shipping 100 to 200 packages a week for my business for years, and I can tell you that all Credit card companies, Amazon etc will all always side with the buyer if a seller essentially tells them , "Go pound sand, I mailed it on the 5th & that's the end of it on my end"
The seller is the shipper of record, and "hired" the package carrier of their choosing as his agent to get it to the buyer.
The seller also packed the item, labeled and sealed the package ( correctly or incorrectly), may or may not have purchased insurance, the buyer has no control over any of this ...
As a buyer, at least in a retail, non private transaction, if you order something and simply never receive it , it's of course not "your fault" you didn't get it, , you are paying for the seller to deliver the as described item to You, not just to his local UPS store, if it is lost or damaged, they did not fulfill their end of the transaction, and must refund or replace the item, not you.
In private transactions such as chip sales here, I have always either just listed, and know it's my responsibility if something were to happen , or put very clearly in the listing that I am not responsible after the item is scanned as picked up ...
If someone hires & pays "Bob the contractor" to remodel their kitchen, & the house is set on fire or the stove is stolen, "Bob" can't say to the buyer that he's keeping the money, not responsible since he sub-hired "charlies's plumbing" ... It's up to Bob to make his customer whole, and go after Charlie himself ...
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I’m not sure that what you are saying is inconsistent with my statement. Many sites like Amazon, eBay, and others change the default rule. But it is still the default rule and would apply in private transactions unless stated otherwise. I don’t want to get into contracts for services, which have entirely different rules.

If you don’t want to take my word for it, here is the relevant UCC provision.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-509
 
coolguy101 said:
I recently shipped an item, and the package was torn open during shipping. One part was missing from the shipment. The receiver cried about it
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I make sure the packages I send are reinforced and "rainproofed" with plenty of clear tape, which also prevents the delivery information from scrubbing/washing off.

The sender might not be liable for a damaged or missing package once it's in possession of the carrier,
but they still could be responsible (at fault) if packaged poorly (leading to damage) or
addressed incorrectly (failing to be delivered).



coolguy101 said:
According to USPS, both the shipper and receiver can file a claim
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Only domestically.
International claims can only be initiated by the sender.
 
Hornet said:
From a legal perspective, in the US at least, the risk of loss defaults to being on the receiver once the goods are delivered to the carrier. People are obviously free to change that default rule by agreement, but I just always assume that in my dealings on PCF unless otherwise specified the risk of loss is on the buyer, not the seller, once the chips are delivered to the carrier.
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THIS! Nobody seems to understand that. If they don’t want to take a risk, pick up what you want to buy in person. If that isn’t possible, then assume the risk
 
cpiaaq said:
eBay makes it clear it’s the sellers responsibility until the item is delivered. Insurance is optional but a wise investment on items not easily replaced
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That is because it is part of the user agreement the sellers are bound to when they open an account. eBay doesn’t follow the law per se, but rather creates their own buyer friendly policies.
 
jja412 said:
Yes, that is what worries me. I am the reshipper of these items. They were picked up by the postman at my work almost 2 weeks ago. There is no record of them in the system besides my generated label.
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I had this happen with the very first high value package that I was sent through a PCF purchase. @navels dropped off the packages into his local post office kiosk, and they were never scanned in.

We were both on pins and needles for about 3 weeks, and the the packages finally showed up, delivered, even though they never had a scan-in.

My only suggestion for the future on high value packages is to not use the “postperson pick up” method, or the “kiosk / mailbin” drop-off method. Even though it takes a second, I highly recommend having someone at the counter scan it into possession, so that the tracking appears, and it’s in the system.
 
My latest USPS fiasco, not poker chip related but a pretty important letter sent certified mail:

Screen Shot 2021-05-08 at 9.18.14 PM.png
 
Don't worry, y'all...the USPS is on the case!!
On Tuesday, October 19, 2021, 05:09:40 PM CDT, donotreply@usps.com <donotreply@usps.com> wrote:


Case number: DE5957510
jja412@xxxxx.xxx​
10/19/2021
JOSEPH J ANDERSON

Dear Customer:


This is in further response to the inquiry you recently filed on an international insured parcel with indemnity, article number CJ186663832US, which you sent to UNITED KINGDOM.

The delivery agent for UNITED KINGDOM has advised us that this article was delivered on or about May 7, 2021.

We are pleased to have been of assistance to you in determining the disposition of this article.


Sincerely,

Customer Service Representative




INTERNATIONAL RESEARCH GROUP
UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE
P.O. Box 512318
LOS ANGELES, CA 80239-9955
TEL: 1-800-222-1811
FAX:323-586-4363
323-586-4368
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If the package verifiably was accepted at a post office and went MIA i feel like the default should be that the loss is split but there’s no rule that says it will be which makes for a shifty grey area.

sellers of course can put the “once it’s delivered to the post office it’s out of my hands” tag line which I guess is pretty unambiguous but I feel like there should be some official forum guideline for when nothing is specified.
 
Stufflymcstuff said:
If the package verifiably was accepted at a post office and went MIA i feel like the default should be that the loss is split but there’s no rule that says it will be which makes for a shifty grey area.

sellers of course can put the “once it’s delivered to the post office it’s out of my hands” tag line which I guess is pretty unambiguous but I feel like there should be some official forum guideline for when nothing is specified.
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In my experience in the business world, unless otherwise specified, once a shipment is picked up by the carrier, the shipper aka seller is no longer responsible. I had to file two freight claims this month as the receiver. Buying insurance only allows me to try to collect my lost money from the insurer. The shipper is not responsible.

“Regular” people, aka people who don’t ship commercially for a living, tend to not understand this. They feel that if a purchase is not personally delivered to their outstretched hand, they should get their money back. I had someone tell me those exact words.

Places such as Amazon and eBay have changed the rules to favor the receiver, as they want to eliminate the risk of buying things online, because that is their entire business model; online shopping. Buyers have all the power with them.

So, people conflate that with what should be expected when they purchase something from a private person, because that is their experience with Amazon. But private people aren’t Jeff Bezos with billions of dollars, so they tend not to be so cavalier about their money and don’t want to be out because USPS lost the shipment. Nobody wants to lose money, that is for sure.

But traditionally, the buyer assumes all risk. They always have the option to pick it up or have it picked up themselves, when possible. That is the only way to guarantee delivery.
 
These transactions are more like an eBay sale than a b2b sale … but really, the important thing is that there aren’t surprises. I’m guessing a lot of users would not expect liability to be entirely on the buyers. Maybe there’s a faq that mentions this and I’m not aware.

Fwiw I have no idea how shipping companies get away with zero liability when they clearly received it and clearly lost it.

I’m not that familiar with American law but I think there are cases where they can be liable, it’s just that once it becomes international they can basically just pawn it off as being government related (which is a out of jail free card as I understand it).
 

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