Must a Winning Hand Show ALL Cards? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter UniLover
- Start date
There are 3 players all-in. They got to show they‘re hands!
At least we play this way.
If your all-in gets called, show what you have!
Everything else makes 0 sense.
At least we play this way.
If your all-in gets called, show what you have!
Everything else makes 0 sense.
AWenger
Full House
Let's not assume that.
I've talked to people that discovered cheating in 10c/25c friendly, relaxed, home games, between people that knew each other well. And it was an unexpected shock to all the other players.
The other players guessed it wasn't about the money, but the 'thrill' of trying to get away with cheating, like kleptomania. "Kleptomania is an impulse control disorder that involves an uncontrollable urge to steal items, often for no personal gain or financial benefit" "People with kleptomania may experience a feeling of tension before stealing, and relief or pleasure during or after the act. They may also try to resist the urge to steal, but are unable to."
Right.
Player A's winning "hand" of the side pot was shown with one 3 to make a trip with the board's two 3s over Player C's two pairs. The rest of Player A's hole cards weren't shown.
Same... my vote is null/void and in the wrong. Ha
Of course his set is over the two pair, but in an all-in/call situation all hands must be shown.
It‘s called show down.
It‘s called show down.
MrCatPants
Full House
PCF doesn't agree on much. 70-2 is the most agreement I've ever seen on here.
I know this is thread is in the context of a cash game, but for tournaments, that may depend on the ruleset governing the game. Current TDA rule 18 (https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/) states that only players that have cards at showdown can ask to see winning hands. As I read it, if you were dealt cards and folded, you forfeit that right.
18: Asking to See a Hand
A: Players not still in possession of cards at showdown, or who have mucked their cards face down without tabling, lose any rights or privileges to ask to see any hand.
B: If there was a river bet, any caller has an inalienable right to have the last aggressor’s hand tabled on request (“the hand they paid to see”) provided the caller tabled or retains his or her cards. TDs discretion governs all other requests such as to see the hand of another caller, or if there was no river bet. See Illustration Addendum [adopted 2013].
That said, if the winner only shows one card, then they are instructed to table the second card and then it's up to the floor (rule 15a).
What does this part mean?
Hosrt/tournament director decides how to handle the situation. By rule 13a, the hand must be properly tabled (eg both hole cards shown in hold'em). If a player refuses to do so when asked, then the person running the game determines how to handle it. That is up to them.
This rule applies when an aggressor makes a bet on the river, and does NOT get callers. If the winner shows a single card, they must show both cards.
You may have meant this as is, but to clarify for everyone,
- If a winner at showdown shows only one card, any player could remind the player or the dealer they have to show two, and / or call the floor and insist they show two. Showing the whole hand is a fundamental rule not a players' privilege. It'd be like 'asking' a player not to deal from the bottom.
- If a player won without showing at showdown due to other players mucking, there is a privilege in which players can request to see the hand. Those rules above relate to that.
I have been hosting friendly mixed cash games 50c/$1. All the players know each other.
Situation:
Rio Bravo, player A preflop bets $5.50; player B raises to $11; player C calls.
Player A then raises to $55, which is very unusal for our game. Player B calls; player C calls.
We see flop, I think 3 7 J, BAM three way all-in. Side pot between players A and C.
No more actions but no one turned over citing last individual card yet to come.
Turn 3, river Q, everyone gets their Rio Bravo card.
Player A shows a 3 for a trip and claims it’s from the Rio Bravo card.
Player B shows pocket Qs for Q Q Q 3 3.
Player C shows pocket Ks for K K 3 3 X.
Player B takes main pot, no one cares about his Rio Bravo card.
Player A wins side pot with a trip over Player C’s two pairs.
Player C asks to see all of Player A’s card. Player A refuses citing he already showed his winning card.
Player C argues all cards should be shown.
How would you rule?
I am not going to rely on the TDA rulebook to provide the definitive answer to your question. Cash games are inherently different from tournaments.
Cards provide information. In a tournament the amount of skin in the game is capped and the prize money is predetermined based on the number of entries/re-buys. That does not hold true for a cash game.
The three players who are all-in pre-flop, with no one left to bet, should reveal their hands before the flop. Win or lose, everyone has paid to see the hand of their opponents. Even in a looser game where the winning hand is revealed after the river, the winner or the losing player has the right to see the holdings of the third player, whether he is too embarrassed to show or not. Cards don't care about your feelings.
Where I depart with the viewpoints of others who are citing the TDA is that in a cash game the amount everyone is in varies and the end outcome and pay-outs is not determined by who outlasts who, but who has accrued the most chips in ratio to their buy-in at the end of the session. For that reason, only players in the pot at showdown have the right to request the other player(s) table their respective hand(s).
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MeridianFC
Flush
I remember the old saying from back in the day “paid for the privilege”. Show those cards..
Munchies11
High Hand
Thanks for the tip . I wasn’t fully unaware ! I will be ensure to implement in my next games if it happens
In a cash game, if you are all in and want to not expose your cards, that’s fine, at any point you can surrender your right to the pot. Even after the river.
But to win the pot you must produce a valid hand which includes all of your hole cards
But to win the pot you must produce a valid hand which includes all of your hole cards
Not a rules question.
In a session at the Encore a few months ago, there was a very aggressive cocky player who was doing a lot of Hollywooding and just generally took over the table when he sat down at $1/$2 while waiting for $2/$5.
Anyways, he would repeatedly bully people out of pots and then slowly peel off just one hole card once his opponents had mucked. Sometimes the nuts like an ace on ace-high dry board. Or sometimes just a random card (maybe trying to signal a bluff).
If you’re in that spot, are you demanding to see the second card?
In a session at the Encore a few months ago, there was a very aggressive cocky player who was doing a lot of Hollywooding and just generally took over the table when he sat down at $1/$2 while waiting for $2/$5.
Anyways, he would repeatedly bully people out of pots and then slowly peel off just one hole card once his opponents had mucked. Sometimes the nuts like an ace on ace-high dry board. Or sometimes just a random card (maybe trying to signal a bluff).
If you’re in that spot, are you demanding to see the second card?
Trust me…GUILTY as charged but this is one of those threads that ur confused how it’s still going on lol
Ha. I posted my question before I saw your previous post.
It's an interesting discussion topic. I was playing a very low stakes tournament with long time friends. A player called a river bet, his opponent showed both cards and had second pair. The player who called showed one card for top pair and scooped the pot. I asked him to show both cards and he got really defensive, like I was accusing him of cheating. He eventually showed the other card and all was well, but it soured the mood a bit between me and him.
No, his is the only hand that's live. Player B gets to drag the pot without showing because he's the only one left. I separate that from OPs situation where other hands have been tabled. At casinos people regularly muck without showing when caught bluffing because they're misregs and don't enjoy life; if its only the winner they can choose to show or not.
If Player B hates Player A he can request to see what Player A's hand was, but this is a good way to not be invited back to some games.
Your friend getting defensive has some insecurities lol, ask him later why we was so hurt.
Demanding to whom? You mean asking villain to do you a favour?
Or do you mean pretending there is a rule about showing the 2nd card here? That probably comes under angle shooting.
oh ya. Me dumb.
different game, your answer is yes in tournament play
The correct answer is obviously yes, which was why I asked him to show both. My comment was more about dynamics with casual players who act like you’re accusing them of cheating.
If I show a K on a K-high board when my opponent has second pair, it’s easy to see how I would be confused when asked to show both when the second card doesn’t matter.
Obviously the conversation changes when you’re playing for any kind of real money or with players you don’t have a long personal relationship with.
Munchies11
High Hand
There’s always a smartass in the room!! Never fails
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