My First Time Catching a Cheat (Yes, Really) (3 Viewers)

[Kain8]

He's been playing with this group forever. He also works with most of the players on a daily basis, including the host, and some are pretty close friends with him.

Once the other players learn of the devious actions of Chuck, I will be baffled to the 1000th degree if they want to remain friends with him. How does that rationale even go? "What?! Chuck was cheating in our game for potentially years on end already and he just got caught now?! Good thing he's so happy-go-lucky and gregarious to us! If he was an asshole I'd be so pissed!"

 

[Jimulacrum]

I would look at it the other way round.
Enforcing the rules is a lot easier than the complicated, embarassing and painful confrontation with a cheat who is everybody's friend.
It's killing the cheating while it's "young" and it doesn't take any dimensions.
With all rules truly enforced, there is very little margin for cheating (I 'd say just no margin, in such a home game).


This^^.

Yes and no. By the time this was noticed, it was already full-on cheating. There was no opportunity to catch him innocently riffling the stub and telling him to cut it out. The only reason it took so long to call out was that it was hard to catch conclusively. Last night was the first time I saw him do it so deliberately, and I immediately walked away and moved to talk with the host.

Enforcing some rules against him wouldn't be enough. Even killing his hand if he riffles the stub only tells him that he has to be slicker about not being noticed cheating. This is what cheats do, and playing cat and mouse with him would only make it harder to nail down. I needed to know for sure if he was cheating. Anything less than that would result in him staying in the game.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Once the other players learn of the devious actions of Chuck, I will be baffled to the 1000th degree if they want to remain friends with him. How does that rationale even go? "What?! Chuck was cheating in our game for potentially years on end already and he just got caught now?! Good thing he's so happy-go-lucky and gregarious to us! If he was an asshole I'd be so pissed!"

Yeah. He's going to face some serious ire from everyone about this when they find out. And he'll still have to work with them. I doubt anyone will want to be more than passingly cordial with him after that. As of now, only Chuck, the host, the other witness, and I actually know what happened. But I'd bet everyone else at the table last night is at least suspicious. We argued on and off upstairs for a long time, probably close to an hour in total, and then he came down looking all upset and left super-early on some thin excuse.

I'm a big believer in giving people chances, but that's predicated on the person actually being repentant for his behavior. He refused to even admit he'd done anything wrong, and in fact adamantly denied it all. (This is not to say I'd ever play with him again, repentant or not. I ain't stupid.)

I still maintain that I think he's probably an otherwise decent person who found his way down a bad path. I don't cheat at poker, but I've certainly found myself down bad paths before, and forgiveness ought to be extended to anyone who has truly changed. But like I said before, trust. Once it's broken, it's worthless. While I can see myself forgiving him if he reaches out with an apology, I don't expect I will ever call him a friend again. It's sad.

 

[Taghkanic]

But a cheat is a cheat is a cheat. I don't care if he stops riffling the stub if it means he's just going to concoct new ways to gain an unfair advantage.

^^^ This.

In the case of the guy in my game, when suspicions first arose we made some adjustments intended to make the suspected behavior stop, or at least much more difficult to achieve, in hopes that the message would be received. The player wasn’t confronted personally, but he clearly understood the message of the group warnings and game changes: We see what you’re doing—knock it off.

So first we tried to address the problem obliquely in the hope of avoiding an uncomfortable confrontation involving someone whose presence and friendship was valued in the group.

It did work, for a time, and for 4-5 sessions the cheat’s results came down to earth.

But this just made us suckers twice over. Eventually he resumed cheating in a revised form, adjusting to the new situation. If anything, he probably thought that getting tacitly busted, and then having several middling/losing sessions, would lull us back into complacency. To a large extent, he was right: He was able to get in another six months or so of cheating before things came to a head again. And then he was banned completely.

Point being: Getting caught but allowed to continue playing, on the assumption that the preferred cheating method has been deterred or thwarted, is not a long-term solution. Cheaters have it in their blood. Finally given the the impossibility of ever being certain he would stop, given that I could not in good faith invite others to play with a cheat, and given the fundamental breach of group trust/friendship that his cheating represented, the only solution was to expel him.

So I don’t fault the OP for how this played out. We are just kind of wired as human beings to avoid believing the worst of friends.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I think for Chuck it is the thrill he gets from cheating, not the meaningless extra $20 he makes. Clearly the guy can't quit. Anyway your post was riveting, thanks!

Yup. The guy is probably a thief in many areas of his life. He probably has issues a trained psychologist could dissect.

@Jimulacrum handled the situation about as well as possible. Sorry you had to be the one to deal with it.

 

[Jimulacrum]

^^^ This.

In the case of the guy in my game, when suspicions first arose we made some adjustments intended to make the suspected behavior stop, or at least much more difficult to achieve, in hopes that the message would be received. The player wasn’t confronted personally, but he clearly understood the message of the group warnings and game changes: We see what you’re doing—knock it off.

So first we tried to address the problem obliquely in the hope of avoiding an uncomfortable confrontation involving someone whose presence and friendship was valued in the group.

It did work, for a time, and for 4-5 sessions the cheat’s results came down to earth.

But this just made us suckers twice over. Eventually he resumed cheating in a revised form, adjusting to the new situation. If anything, he probably thought that getting tacitly busted, and then having several middling/losing sessions, would lull us back into complacency. To a large extent, he was right: He was able to get in another six months or so of cheating before things came to a head again. And then he was banned completely.

Point being: Getting caught but allowed to continue playing, on the assumption that the preferred cheating method has been deterred or thwarted, is not a long-term solution. Cheaters have it in their blood. Finally given the the impossibility of ever being certain he would stop, given that I could not in good faith invite others to play with a cheat, and given the fundamental breach of group trust/friendship that his cheating represented, the only solution was to expel him.

So I don’t fault the OP for how this played out. We are just kind of wired as human beings to avoid believing the worst of friends.

Exactly. Especially after how he responded to being formally accused, I don't doubt that he'd have found novel ways to cheat. If he was in fact cheating, the chance of him improving his cheating methods was so significant that it would be a disservice to everyone to simply enforce some rules a little harder, but keep the cheat in the game. And if he wasn't cheating, it was relatively harmless to allow it to continue for a little longer while we figured it out.

And yeah, a lot of the conversation about this has revolved around being disappointed in this guy because we thought he was so much better than this. Absent what I saw, I would never have thought he was even capable of this.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Yup. The guy is probably a thief in many areas of his life. He probably has issues a trained psychologist could dissect.

@Jimulacrum handled the situation about as well as possible. Sorry you had to be the one to deal with it.

I hope not, but there I go again not wanting to believe the worst about people.

If he'd do this to a close group of friends for years, what's to stop him from doing it in other circumstances, where the moral qualms would be somewhat less?

I genuinely hope he grows from this as a person and leaves it all in his past. As you get older, losing close friends means a lot. He's still fairly young but not a baby (mid-30s, close to my age).

 

[Kyle]

Wow seems pretty petty for him to do that. Lowest of the low. The worst is he chooses to do this to his "friends and co workers" he has to work with everyday. Has been doing it for years. What an empty life that Chuck has.

 

[BPTDirector]

I once accused a coworker’s brother and friend of soft playing each other - checking down hands where they were the only two left thus never knocking each other out. Wile my work friend got very upset with me over the accusation those two never checked down in that situation again. While not exactly full on cheating, not exactly innocent either. Unfortunately any advantage from teamwork at the poker table should be considered unacceptable. It was an uncomfortable situation but I was so glad to catch it early on.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I shook his hand

I did shake his hand

Do you not listen to the CDC???

 

[Jimulacrum]

I once accused a coworker’s brother and friend of soft playing each other - checking down hands where they were the only two left thus never knocking each other out. Wile my work friend got very upset with me over the accusation those two never checked down in that situation again. While not exactly full on cheating, not exactly innocent either. Unfortunately any advantage from teamwork at the poker table should be considered unacceptable. It was an uncomfortable situation but I was so glad to catch it early on.

I find that cases like this are much easier to handle than cases like mine, in general. Soft-playing isn't usually so calculated as peeping or manipulating the deck. Players don't always understand or appreciate that soft-playing is cheating, especially since the gain is something you'd consider in a theoretical sense over the long term. A stern reminder of the rules is usually sufficient.

Screwing with the cards, on the other hand, is on the same level as snatching a $20 out of someone's wallet. The person knows for sure he shouldn't be doing it. Reminding him that it's against the rules/law doesn't really change anything but letting him know you caught him cheating/stealing, with little to no consequences.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Do you not listen to the CDC???

I suspect that shaking hands is no better or worse than playing live poker in the first place.

 

[MikesDad]

I know it might not be normal, but when I finish dealing and have to wait on action, I like using the dealer button itself as kind of a card guard for the deck - I put the deck down and put the dealer button on top of it before I do anything.

^^^^this

 

[cascadiapoker]

This guy sounds a lot like an uncle of mine. It doesn’t matter how meaningless or petty the game is, he has to cheat and he has to win. He can’t ever not cheat and all hell breaks loose if you let him cheat and still beat him. And I don’t mean just piker. It could literally be Chutes and Ladders or friggin’ Candyland! The sad part is that’s not even an exaggeration. I can’t tell which he is addicted to, does he cheat because he’s addicted to winning? Or is he addicted to cheating and gets pissed when it fails? This Chick sounds like he’s addicted to cheating. He doesn’t seem to have that “HAVE to win” determination so it seems like just having the edge is where his thrills come from. Still, it makes me wonder if he has to absolutely cheat at such a low stakes, petty game, that maybe even the whole nice guy act is just a routine and there is much more sinister motives behind him.

 

[Empty Light]

I don't really have much to add, Jimulacrum, but I did want to offer my sympathies for having been put into such a crappy situation. The pointlessness of the crime is part of what makes me so upset - it's not like this guy is stealing bread to feed his starving family. I can feel my own adrenaline rising as I imagine myself in your position, and needing to handle it both gingerly, and thoroughly.

Any chance that Chuck will actually try to show up to a future game? We'd love to hear any follow-up in the weeks to come!

- Empty Light.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I suspect that shaking hands is no better or worse than playing live poker in the first place.

Yeah I know, perhaps I shouldn't have blurred the smiley

 

[Jimulacrum]

This guy sounds a lot like an uncle of mine. It doesn’t matter how meaningless or petty the game is, he has to cheat and he has to win. He can’t ever not cheat and all hell breaks loose if you let him cheat and still beat him. And I don’t mean just piker. It could literally be Chutes and Ladders or friggin’ Candyland! The sad part is that’s not even an exaggeration. I can’t tell which he is addicted to, does he cheat because he’s addicted to winning? Or is he addicted to cheating and gets pissed when it fails? This Chick sounds like he’s addicted to cheating. He doesn’t seem to have that “HAVE to win” determination so it seems like just having the edge is where his thrills come from. Still, it makes me wonder if he has to absolutely cheat at such a low stakes, petty game, that maybe even the whole nice guy act is just a routine and there is much more sinister motives behind him.

I sure hope not. From what I've seen of him away from the table, I can't imagine he's deep down some truly sinister person.

Hell, maybe he's not as well-off as I thought he was, and it was about making ends meet or something the whole time. I don't know. Wouldn't be the first or the millionth time someone has gotten the wrong impression about someone else's financial circumstances.

I don't really have much to add, Jimulacrum, but I did want to offer my sympathies for having been put into such a crappy situation. The pointlessness of the crime is part of what makes me so upset - it's not like this guy is stealing bread to feed his starving family. I can feel my own adrenaline rising as I imagine myself in your position, and needing to handle it both gingerly, and thoroughly.

Any chance that Chuck will actually try to show up to a future game? We'd love to hear any follow-up in the weeks to come!

- Empty Light.

I strongly doubt he'll try to show up. He may be a lot of things, but I don't think he's an idiot.

 

[BNM]

Bummer all the way around. Sorry you had to deal with that.

This is the small con. Insert “Sting” reference or, better yet, the “Heat” quote from DeNiro: “You see me doin' thrill-seeker liquor store holdups with a "Born to Lose" tattoo on my chest?” I know of several cases where folks making low six figure incomes, in public trust positions, lost their jobs over small con stupidity. For example, price tag swapping and returning clothes to collect the difference for very small sums each time.

Just dumb, small thinking.

 

[FDLmold]

Did not read it all, but the first time anybody at my games takes any card ever behind/under the table, they get a verbal reprimand. My dad was not great, but he at least taught me that. My players make fun of me for it. They mock with words such as "like I have your exact deck of cards and am switching cards", to which I respond "doesn't matter jackwagon, just keep them on the table".

So that was the first mistake. Big time. To allow any card ever behind/under the table.

 

[Jimulacrum]

For example, price tag swapping and returning clothes to collect the difference for very small sums each time.

I used to get caught up in thinking like this. Not pointless theft or fraud, but trying to minimize every expense and maximize every return, no matter how small. It was more a function of OCD than anything. (I mean real OCD, not "I step over cracks and don't like messiness.") I've gotten better about it over the years, but the instinct still lingers in the back of my mind.

I could see an otherwise successful person with a poor moral compass justifying switching tags, for example, because of an underlying obsession with saving as much as possible due to fear of poverty, even if poverty is a very unlikely outcome (and not meaningfully prevented by their actions). Hell, the compulsions may even override the person's sense of morality.

It actually is a bit like stepping over cracks on the sidewalk, now that I think of it. Can't speak for anyone else, but I'd step over cracks (yes, I used to do this) because, all else being equal, it's safer, if only by like 0.0000001%. But the OCD mind distorts probabilities. The person may involuntarily imagine himself tripping and splitting his head open, and he'd much rather look silly stepping over cracks a hundred billion times than split his head open when he could have prevented it (or so he believes). Similarly, it could distort risk-reward analysis when it comes to avoiding poverty by stealing, versus the consequences of getting caught (which, ironically, would likely lead to massive financial loss and worse).

It's one of the things that frustrates people who have to deal with OCD in their family. The person may otherwise be very rational, but suddenly seems crazy about certain things that trigger obsessive thoughts and compulsive behaviors to soothe those thoughts.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Did not read it all, but the first time anybody at my games takes any card ever behind/under the table, they get a verbal reprimand. My dad was not great, but he at least taught me that. My players make fun of me for it. They mock with words such as "like I have your exact deck of cards and am switching cards", to which I respond "doesn't matter jackwagon, just keep them on the table".

So that was the first mistake. Big time. To allow any card ever behind/under the table.

Worth checking out the rest of the thread with regard to this point. It's been discussed pretty extensively.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I hope not, but there I go again not wanting to believe the worst about people.

If he'd do this to a close group of friends for years, what's to stop him from doing it in other circumstances, where the moral qualms would be somewhat less?

I don't know for sure - but I suspect that he's of the mind that this is a victimless crime. People who steal from retail stores and banks often express this sentiment.

I think he cheats not because he has to to beat the game, or that there's all that much of an edge to gain. It's probably more about the thrill that comes from opportunistically planning, executing and getting away with it.

This is supported by the fact that he was considerably more blatant about it when he thought no one was paying attention. He probably thought he'd played the long game for enough time to lull any suspicion into a false sense of security. He was always going to go back to his old ways - it was just a matter of when.

Or maybe he has issues with self sabotage and part of him wanted to get caught, which is why he didn't go to a lot of trouble to conceal his actions this last time around. You mentioned him having a lot of nervous ticks in the OP - maybe that's related somehow.

 

[allforcharity]

I suppose these situations will inevitably pop up from time to time, regardless of home, financial circumstances, or whatever. Sometimes there's no logical explanation for someone's behaviour.

 

[boltonguy]

So I'm new to thinking about cheating - leaving the cards on the table at all times makes sense. We have a player who likes to pick up his hole cards and hold them off the table and we have given him crap - not because we think he's cheating (he doesnt own a deck of similar cards) but because more than once the action has moved right past him and the player to his left has acted out of turn because his cards weren't visible and it was assumed he had folded.

Other than cards on the table at all times and using cut cards (which we do), is there a list of things to pay attention to in order to watch for cheating?

 

[boltonguy]

Found this thread: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/how-to-avoid-cheating-in-home-games.44270/

 

[trigs]

Crazy story! Some people are just that way though. I have known people that like to throw board game nights a lot, and myself and others have caught them cheating multiple times, but we never said anything. It wasn't for money obviously, so really it was just sad.

I don't get cheating, and I judge it even more when you're cheating your friends.

 

[namsupak]

Good post, and informative. I think that the host and you handled it well, there is honestly no great way to handle a situation like this. If this happened at our game it wouldn't have gone down well at all.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Other than cards on the table at all times and using cut cards (which we do), is there a list of things to pay attention to in order to watch for cheating?

There's no simple answer. In general, my advice is to watch out for anything that looks or feels unnatural, especially but not only what people are doing with their hands (and in some cases, like this one, their eyes), for example, a pointless flourish that could be used to conceal improper behavior, or a guy keeping his hands unnecessarily close to the pot.

Beyond visual observations, one thing the host mentioned to me about the hand where I caught the guy was that it just felt funny. People often have an innate sense of when something isn't quite right, and a bad cheat may give off that vibe because he's essentially acting. Acting like he's your friend, acting like he's handling the cards normally, acting like he's surprised when that third club hits the board.

But then again, who am I? I caught this one guy by chance because he was sloppy and I had a pretty long time to observe him. I can't assume I'd be worth a damn at catching a good, practiced cheat.

 

[WedgeRock]

I think it was @ekricket that said it first... You should have been overt about it when you first noticed it... If he's that good of a guy, maybe he mends his ways and this issue never comes up.

I'm not saying I would've handled it any different, but its something to think about.

I'm a big believer in giving people chances, but that's predicated on the person actually being repentant for his behavior. He refused to even admit he'd done anything wrong, and in fact adamantly denied it all. (This is not to say I'd ever play with him again, repentant or not. I ain't stupid.)

So, you kinda backed him in a corner... I doubt he ever reflected on how he would handle it if he got called out on it. His insta-reaction was to lie/deny, and then he got married to that position.

What if he came back to the group, told everyone everything he had been doing and asked to play again, and you guys took a blind vote and if it was unanimous, he'd be allowed to play again...would you agree to that? If yes, would you vote for him to sit, or continue to oust him?

 

[WedgeRock]

Bummer all the way around. Sorry you had to deal with that.

This is the small con. Insert “Sting” reference or, better yet, the “Heat” quote from DeNiro: “You see me doin' thrill-seeker liquor store holdups with a "Born to Lose" tattoo on my chest?” I know of several cases where folks making low six figure incomes, in public trust positions, lost their jobs over small con stupidity. For example, price tag swapping and returning clothes to collect the difference for very small sums each time.

Just dumb, small thinking.

Look, this is what I love about you... you think about the big picture. That's great, okay? But it's not me. I don't play the game straight up, and then if I lose, go get some real work or something, okay? I see a mark, I take him down. That's what I do. That's the way I live.