My First Time Catching a Cheat (Yes, Really) (7 Viewers)

I'm a bit baffled about the responses saying "since we can't know what's fair, he shouldn't pay back anything". Isn't that the least fair approach of them all!? Heck, even a super unfair approach like @Taghkanic collecting $40k and pocketing it all is still fairer than letting the cheat keep the money! (Not by much, though)

For the record, if I was in a group like this and got cheated, and the host found out but did nothing to get my money back, I would feel cheated by both the cheater and the host. And this is long before the cheater even gets invited back!

At the very least: Set up a payback plan so he returns his tournament winnings. Use that money to buy beer and pizza or whatever each poker night. Those who then get repaid are the ones who still contribute to the game.
Still too little IMO...
 
I know we could beat a three year old, dead horse forever, it’s obviously just an interesting topic. If we are to except that the group does indeed want him back and want to give him another chance I get that. But why does he have to deal? Can’t he just skip his turn?
 
I know we could beat a three year old, dead horse forever, it’s obviously just an interesting topic. If we are to except that the group does indeed want him back and want to give him another chance I get that. But why does he have to deal? Can’t he just skip his turn?
Actually, that could be his restitution.

He never gets the dealer button again. He still has to deal, but it's a dead button as it passes him.

It's exactly the kind of small-edge disadvantage he imposed through his cheating. He pays you all back by getting one less hand per orbit than everyone else, and the hand he misses is the most advantageous one. Permanently.

It'd be something, anyway, and there's a certain poetic justice to it.
 
Actually, that could be his restitution.

He never gets the dealer button again. He still has to deal, but it's a dead button as it passes him.

It's exactly the kind of small-edge disadvantage he imposed through his cheating. He pays you all back by getting one less hand per orbit than everyone else, and the hand he misses is the most advantageous one. Permanently.

It'd be something, anyway, and there's a certain poetic justice to it.
Yep. And if he protests, then his recent 'change of heart' and apology are clearly insincere.

But OP has already made up his mind that allowing him back with no consequences for past actions is a good idea.
 
Fuck that, booyah.

Imo, it's a monumental error in judgement to willingly let any known long-term card cheater into a poker game -- regardless of stakes, relationships, recent events, or any other unrelated bullshit. He's a cheat.

I'm with @Jimulacrum -- I'd protest loudly and quit before sitting down to play with a known crook.
This right here.
 
Make him buy a shuffle tech, or better yet a shuffle master for the group. Partial restitution and prevents him (and others) from fixing or watching the deck.

I would say that it’s simpler, easier and safer to just boot the guy, but your mind seems to be made up to let the fox back into the henhouse (with cameras and watching), so yeah, make him pay back something, make it harder for him to cheat (and I don’t mean watching him), and don’t be too surprised when (not if) it happens again.
 
I still can't figure out why he hasn't made any effort in paying anything back. Even kicking a little back here and there would go a long way.

I'm sorry but shame on the host and this group for allowing this to happen. Letting him back in, that is debatable (I along with some in this thread would have not allowed him to play cards in my group again), but for him to not kick any money back, that is pathetic.

And if the excuse of not having the money is used, then he shouldn't be allowed to play.
 
I think it’s important to remember the group has forgiven him and allowed him to play. This is a close friend/family member. People can change.

I can’t shame anyone (the group) for forgiving others.

It’s commendable.
 
I think it’s important to remember the group has forgiven him and allowed him to play. This is a close friend/family member. People can change.

I can’t shame anyone (the group) for forgiving others.

It’s commendable.
Not trying to shame the OP, but the best indicator of future action is past performance.

To quote the Dixie Chicks, “Forgive, sounds good. Forget, I’m not sure I could “
 
I’m surprised people are judging @Taghkanic so harshly. It’s easy to have very clear thoughts on certain topics, but when they become real life issues with actual real world friends, it isn’t always so simple.
That's a fair point.

But that is why advice or commentary from people removed from the situation can be helpful.

Taking emotion and feelings out of a decision is often a vital aspect of finding the optimal response for a set of circumstances.

IMHO, @Taghkanic and his crew are allowing the emotions of the passing of a mutual friend to cloud their decisions.

I believe this is a prime example of humans making very poor decisions based on emotions.
 
Not trying to shame the OP, but the best indicator of future action is past performance.

To quote the Dixie Chicks, “Forgive, sounds good. Forget, I’m not sure I could “
And Jesus said,“If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you”.
 
That's a fair point.

But that is why advice or commentary from people removed from the situation can be helpful.

Taking emotion and feelings out of a decision is often a vital aspect of finding the optimal response for a set of circumstances.

IMHO, @Taghkanic and his crew are allowing the emotions of the passing of a mutual friend to cloud their decisions.

I believe this is a prime example of humans making very poor decisions based on emotions.
That’s the beautiful thing. We are humans. And many make mistakes.
 
I think there's an ancient Greek or Chinese proverb that states:

'Fool me once, shame on... shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again'
George Bush Dancing GIF
 
Forgving him and allowing him back in the game are also separate issues. Nothing wrong with forgiving. Lots wrong with allowing a known cheater into your game.
Have you truly forgiven him then?
 
Have you truly forgiven him then?
Sure. There's a big difference between forgiving him for what he's done in the past, versus providing him the opportunity to do it again. The first is admirable. The second is stupid, and potentially harmful if he has a real mental/addiction issue.
 
Forgving him and allowing him back in the game are also separate issues. Nothing wrong with forgiving. Lots wrong with allowing a known cheater into your game.
Absolutely. Forgiving him is one thing, but not expecting some payback on the money stolen from his cheating, this is unacceptable.

I'm not going to lie. This "friend" must see the rest of the players as fools for this.
 
You can forgive the guy. Allow him back into the social circle. BBQs, dinners, outdoor excursions, etc.

But let him back to the poker table. Hard no. That privilege is gone forever.

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And I don't see this as a horrible thing. We've spoken to compulsions and addictions, gambling is an insidious one. Invite him to the ballgame or the gym or something, but I'd avoid games of chance. I'm not a purist, absolutely everyone makes mistakes, but if someone shows tendencies to get drunk and violent/drive dunk at my house (happens occasionally to people, but patterns emerge and its an issue), I no longer invite them to late nights or parties, I see them for lunches and wrestling practices. I can forgive while compartmentalizing my relationships. And I would like to add, yes, that's absolutely true forgiveness. I forgive people for things all the time while preparing for future transgressions lol.
 
I'm a bit baffled about the responses saying "since we can't know what's fair, he shouldn't pay back anything".
I think it’s less about whether he “should” pay it back and more about just being pragmatic and realistic. The guy can’t pay it back and who really wants to collect $40 a week for 6 years to distribute across ~$15 people.

It’s just opening old wounds every week, week after week, etc. Death by a thousand cuts is just not enjoyable for anyone.

I’m not condoning any action one way or another, I just think if you let the guy back in as a friend, you have to let the past go - otherwise, don’t let him back in.
 
With regard to no restitution: It's not so much the fact that he hasn't paid back that's the issue; it's the fact that he didn't even offer. It speaks to his motives.

With regard to letting him back in the game: I've made my thoughts pretty clear on this. Never again.

With regard to forgiveness: You let go for yourself more than you let go for the benefit of the person who wronged you. Doesn't mean that person's place in your life is fully restored. Doesn't mean you forget. Just means you don't let the past chew up your energy anymore.
 
I think it’s less about whether he “should” pay it back and more about just being pragmatic and realistic. The guy can’t pay it back and who really wants to collect $40 a week for 6 years to distribute across ~$15 people.

It’s just opening old wounds every week, week after week, etc. Death by a thousand cuts is just not enjoyable for anyone.

I’m not condoning any action one way or another, I just think if you let the guy back in as a friend, you have to let the past go - otherwise, don’t let him back in.
And this goes to the heart of why cheating is such an egregious offense.

It's not just morally wrong. It makes a mess of the money, the game, the friendships, everything, and there's no real way to recover from it.
 
Make him buy a shuffle tech, or better yet a shuffle master for the group. Partial restitution and prevents him (and others) from fixing or watching the deck.

I would say that it’s simpler, easier and safer to just boot the guy, but your mind seems to be made up to let the fox back into the henhouse (with cameras and watching), so yeah, make him pay back something, make it harder for him to cheat (and I don’t mean watching him), and don’t be too surprised when (not if) it happens again.
This is actually a good idea - lol.
 
It's not just morally wrong. It makes a mess of the money, the game, the friendships, everything, and there's no real way to recover from it.
I agree and think this is well said!

This is really the key. It’s not about the $$, it’s the action, the loss of trust.

Repaying the $$ doesn’t necessarily repair the trust. So for me, focusing on restitution isn’t worth the effort as it was never really about the $ to begin with (at least for me).
 
Thanks for all the feedback, at least for most of it… Some general reflections:

Poker attracts all sorts of people, and that’s part of the greatness and allure of the game.

In my community, there is a lot of segregation by background and professions. Poker is the one place I’ve found where none of that matters.

I’ve played at the same table with a convicted arsonist and a Republican judge. With a billionaire philanthropist and a guy who stocks shelves at the supermarket. With a retired national ad exec and a dive bar bartender. With a State trooper and a drug dealer.

I’ve played (and had a great conversation) with a guy who I later learned was under indictment and awaiting trial for embezzlement of government funds. Played with carpenters and dairy farmers and Vietnam vets and photographers and journalists. Trumpers and Socialists.

I even played—several times—with two young guys and a trans woman who didn’t return for the next session because soon thereafter ***they were all charged with murder.*** And convicted. (They were loose, careless, fun poker players, and seemed really quite nice. So much for player profiling.)

And yes, I’ve played for many years with a tableful of people I’d have trusted to hold $100K in cash for me, one of whom turned out to be unworthy of such trust. Live and learn. And hope others are learning, too.

This to me is the most remarkable thing about poker—that it leads lots of people of different backgrounds to sit around the same table.

None of the above excuses the cheat in question. It does, however, highlight the fact that just by playing poker you are sitting down with and taking risks with all kinds of people. We try to be good judges of character, but people are endlessly surprising.

I think many delude themselves that *their* game and *their* friends are different. I’d wager that everyone here has been cheated at cards at least once. Not that I like it, nor wish to invite it, contrary to a few of the more manichaean suggestions above.

As a host, it’s always about managing risk; it can’t be 100% eliminated. Our private games have never been held up, or raided. But that kind of thing could still happen any time, despite all my precautions.

Reintroducing this particular person after a 3.5 year ban—someone who grew up in my hometown, whose family knew mine, who has deep relationships with the rest of my regs, and whose issues are well known to the group—is yet another managed risk among many raised by hosting. I think things are well under control, and possibly even less perilous than some of the other sticky situations I just mentioned. My take—which may turn out disastrously wrong, or not—is that he’s currently *less* likely to cheat than anyone else, given the trajectory of his story. It’s my job to keep a close eye on that, and I have help.

Good news for those who disagree: You don’t have to play in my game.

Host the way you want to and make your own character assessments. I am comfortable that my game is as secure as any. That is: Only as secure as one can reasonably expect given the nature of poker.
 
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