Official Horse Race Game Thread (12 Viewers)

[CrazyEddie]

But I'm curious what the math "should" be for a theoretically "correct" distribution of holes per horse (which would only really matter if the card component of the game wasn't present).

There's two ways to answer that question.

If you mean: "out of all the horses that run a given race, what distribution of holes ensures that each horse has an equal chance to win after removing the scratched horses", then the correct distribution is [1,2,3,4,5,6,5,4,3,2,1] or some exact multiple of that such as [3,6,9,12,15,18,15,12,9,6,3] - counting the number of moves needed to cross the finish line, which includes the holes in the middle and the holes at the finish line but not the holes at the starting line.

If you mean: "across multiple races, what distribution of holes ensures that each horse wins the same number of races, taking into account that being scratched means the horse can't win that race" then there is no distribution of holes that can ensure the probabilities are exactly the same. However, @Darson 's posts here and here provide a distribution which comes pretty close to having each horse win an equal number of times. Specifically:

If you're building your own board, I would recommend the following hole pattern as an easy to remember distribution:

Horse	Win (number of jumps to win)	Win %	Number of peg holes between start and finish
2	4	8%	3
3	6	10%	5
4	8	10%	7
5	10	9%	9
6	12	8%	11
7	14	8%	13
8	12	8%	11
9	10	10%	9
10	8	10%	7
11	6	10%	5
12	4	8%	3

The reason that there's two different answers to your question is because of the scratches. The [1,2,3,4,5,6,5,4,3,2,1] distribution provides a perfectly equal chance for each horse to win if there were no scratches (and thus provides a perfectly equal chance to win between all the horses that don't scratch). But because there are scratches, that changes things - and the inner horses are much, much more likely to scratch than the outer horses, which is why most people feel that the 2 and 12 win a lot more often. They do win a lot more often, because they so rarely scratch.

 

[legonick]

fixed it for you

This isn't a game you play, it's a game that plays you. There are no decisions; it's completely automatic. It's a pure gamble - but if that's your thing, it's an entertaining way to do it.

Putting in the "aces skip a scratch payment" adds just a touch for me, which I like. Something to remember to do, or if the big bad scratch rolled on a random weird one, like 2/12, 3/11...deciding when to play it, and factoring in likelihood of how many turns you have left based on how close horses are to finishing.

But yeah, ultimately I think this game works best as a break from poker, which requires lots of thinking to be decent at.

 

[WedgeRock]

Big hit at Easter with the family.

We tweaked the rules as follows:

• We distributed cards equally. We were playing five-handed, so there were two leftover cards that were just set to the side.
  
• We started by making the first roller pay a 1x scratch fine and everybody discarded that card. Repeat for 2x, 3x and 4x.
  • We changed the rule to make each of the discarders pay a 1x scratch (and nothing for the roller unless they also discarded). It made much bigger pots. Pots started with 30x after scratches instead of 10x.
• We left the aces and kings in per @Moxie Mike's suggestion (aces cancel a scratch penalty and are discarded, kings pass the scratch penalty to the left and are discarded). We found that it reduced the pots (because the 3x or 4x penalty was always skipped).
  • We changed the rules so that kings passed the fine to the left (as before), but aces pass the fine to the right.
    
  • We also made the fines double each time it was passed, so a 4x fine became 8x if passed once and 16x if passed a second time. This can get out of control quickly (I had to pay a 128x fine -- $32 in a base 25¢ game), so for a more tame game, try an incremental increase (1x-->2x-->3x-->4x-->5x, etc. instead of 1x-->2x-->4x-->8x-->16x) Either way, it's fun as a $1 fine becomes $4 or $8 or more and it adds a decision of when to play an A or K and when to hold on to them; it also builds the pot.
    
  • Also, if the race ended and you still had a K or A in your hand, you had to pay 10x fine into the pot. It discourages holding on to aces and kings to use them defensively and instead, it encourages people to play the cards, increasing the scratch fine and building bigger pots.
• The person rolling the final roll got a 10x "jockey pay" before the pot is split.
  
• Pots were split based on the number of cards held. So if there was a 9 set aside (not used) and the 9 horse won, each player holding a 9 got 1/3rd the pot instead of 1/4.
  
• We left any uneven splits in the pot for the next round. You could also add these to the jockey pay so there was no carryover from one race to the next.

Everybody started with 200x ($50 when the 1x penalty was 25¢). We played one orbit under the smaller pot rules and then made the tweaks and played a second orbit with pot-builder rules. The big winner was +$27 while the big loser was -$20.

FWIW, I normally don't like 25¢ chips *and* 50¢ chips in a poker games but it worked well for the horse racing game. We used 16x25¢, 12x50¢, 20x$1 and 4x$5 in the starting stack. Having a 1x, 2x and 4x chip allowed every fine to be paid in 1 or 2 chips. Starting stacks had enough so that change didn't have to be paid often. And the 20x chip could be used to make change or pay the big fines.

Also, I don't have the game board with scratch rows. So we just place four piles of cards, in order, behind the starting line with the scratch horse on the pile of cards; easy to see later what horses are the 1x, 2x, 3x and 4x scratch fines.

Also, we kept the pot neat and stacked just beyond the finish line on the board with two stacks of 1x chips, two stacks of 2x chips, and one stack each of 4x and 20x chips. Made chopping pots easier at the end of a race.

We considered allowing a second roll if you rolled doubles. Toward the end of the game, it could give you a second chance at jockey pay, but it could also mean you pay two scratch fines.

Although it didn't come up, if you ran out of chips, you had to reload or forfeit any claim to the current race prize pool. We also decided to play in orbits. You couldn't quit before an orbit was complete if you were winning.

We originally rolled for highest total to see who started scratch rolls in the first race. After the first race, the person to the left of the jockey pay roller just started the first roll of the next race. There is not a huge advantage to dealing. I just ended up being the first dealer because I was shuffling the cards. We rotated the deal from there.

This game certainly soothes the degen tingles, but we tried adding a little strategy.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I played yesterday with the family as well - biggest pot of the night at $.25/unit was $36 - so 144 units.

Average pot was around $20.

Shortest game was over in 5 rolls (a deuce was rolled on each of the first two rolls, then the last).

I haven't yet played with the variant of leaving the kings and aces in... after reading your post it seems like having 8 of them in the game would be a bit much. 2 of each might be more appropriate, especially if the aces can be used to skip a fine altogether. That would only reduce the pot by 6-8 units in most instances.

I like the idea of penalizing anyone who doesn't use theirs... although 10 units seems severe. It's plausible that a person won't get an opportunity the use them... especially if they hold more than one and there are a lot of people in the game.

I also considered if there was a way to reward a player for holding aces and kings when the race ends. For example, if there are many players (8+), you're only going to have 5 cards (and probably less after the scratch rounds) - and not many opportunities to use them.

Another idea I had was to allow someone to play an ace to negate the result of their roll. So not just avoiding a fine, but not moving or scratching a horse. Just a thought. I'm not sure how well that would play IRL though.

 

[WedgeRock]

I like the idea of penalizing anyone who doesn't use theirs... although 10 units seems severe. It's plausible that a person won't get an opportunity the use them... especially if they hold more than one and there are a lot of people in the game.

When we changed the rule to aces pass right and kings pass left, the roller has the opportunity to pass a fine on any roll that doesn't advance a horse.

As for 10x fine for having an ace or king in your hand when the race ends, there never was an instance that they weren't all played. And 10x in a 25¢ game is only $2.50 and it's equal to what we were paying for jockey pay (which is how we came up with that number).

 

[warma]

We changed the rule to make each of the discarders pay a 1x scratch (and nothing for the roller unless they also discarded). It made much bigger pots. Pots started with 30x after scratches instead of 10x.

That’s the Fineni rule. Pots get massive, especially when 7 is the 4x scratch.

I played 3-way with the kids and started with 20 chips each. My daughter kept going broke, so we reloaded everyone equally several times. My son was the big winner. We got interrupted, so I didn’t tally total in and winnings/losses.

They’re both addicted; I’m beginning to worry.

I need to figure what a good buy-in amount is (60x the 1x scratch fee?).

 

[WedgeRock]

I need to figure what a good buy-in amount is (60x the 1x scratch fee?).

We did 200x ($50 when 1x scratch fine = 25¢)

 

[legonick]

When we changed the rule to aces pass right and kings pass left, the roller has the opportunity to pass a fine on any roll that doesn't advance a horse.

As for 10x fine for having an ace or king in your hand when the race ends, there never was an instance that they weren't all played. And 10x in a 25¢ game is only $2.50 and it's equal to what we were paying for jockey pay (which is how we came up with that number).

The thing with the stacking passes is now you should actually not let other people know what cards you have.

Say I have one "pass left" and one "pass right" and the guy on my left has one "pass right". If I know that, I can optimize my play to account for him bouncing it back to me.

So does the game play better forcing people to show their hands? Or better hiding cards so no one knows who has the pass left/rights and it becomes kind of a game of chicken...first goes, loses?

 

[WedgeRock]

The thing with the stacking passes is now you should actually not let other people know what cards you have.

We didn't. My mom and brother never played before, and they asked me if they had to hide/hold their cards. I said they should, but it was up to them. Everybody hid their cards, but there was still open rooting for horses that people held shares of.

I was also thinking that for 4 or fewer players, you might want to remove 1 ace and 1 king, but for five players, four aces and four kings was fine.

 

[BPTDirector]

Just made arrangements to have a case made for my game. Can’t wait to show it once it’s complete. The guy making it has shown himself to be an excellent woodworker and is my boss at work. After playing the game at our team building meeting last month he jumped at the chance to help me out. Very excited!

 

[Justin Olson]

That’s the Fineni rule. Pots get massive, especially when 7 is the 4x scratch.

I played 3-way with the kids and started with 20 chips each. My daughter kept going broke, so we reloaded everyone equally several times. My son was the big winner. We got interrupted, so I didn’t tally total in and winnings/losses.

They’re both addicted; I’m beginning to worry.

I need to figure what a good buy-in amount is (60x the 1x scratch fee?).

We did 160
$40 for $.25 scratch.
Gave everyone (5players) 2 barrels quarters and 30 $1’s

 

[TheOffalo]

We changed the rule to make each of the discarders pay a 1x scratch (and nothing for the roller unless they also discarded). It made much bigger pots.

I think I may be misunderstanding. How does making each discarder pay a 1x scratch make for bigger pots than paying the appropriate multiplier scratch for each card discarded?

 

[WedgeRock]

So we started with only the first roller paying the 1x fine and everyone holding that card just discarded it. Then only the second roller paid the 2x fine and everyone holding that card just discarded it. Continue for the third and fourth roller. After four scratches, the race starts with 10x in the pot.

We changed it so the first roller just designates the horse, and everyone who holds that card discards it *and* pays the fine (so four 1x fines are paid). Same for the second roller; he designates the horse and everyone holding that card discards it *and* pays the 2x fine (so four 2x fines total). Continue for third and fourth scratch. At the start of the race, there is around 40x in the pot already (could be less if scratch horse cards were set aside) or could be more (if the same scratch was rolled a second time).

This is apparently the standard rule for the Fineni version, but I don't have the Fineni version, so we had to change to it. It's a better way of doing it, IMO. Otherwise, the pots are too small.

 

[warma]

I think I may be misunderstanding. How does making each discarder pay a 1x scratch make for bigger pots than paying the appropriate multiplier scratch for each card discarded?

Because “We started by making the first roller pay a 1x scratch fine and everybody discarded that card. Repeat for 2x, 3x and 4x.”

So just the roller paid (small pot) vs everyone (big pot).

 

[Darson]

The rule is the same for both Fineni and ATB - each person holding a scratched horse pays the multiple for that horse. So every game always starts with exactly the same 40x in the pot to begin with.

 

[TheOffalo]

Because “We started by making the first roller pay a 1x scratch fine and everybody discarded that card. Repeat for 2x, 3x and 4x.”

So just the roller paid (small pot) vs everyone (big pot).

Thanks, I was confused because it seemed like nearly everyone was treating the rules @wonderpuddle posted on the first page as "the rules", so I got momentarily confused by how playing by standard rules would result in a bigger pot.

I did see the "We started by making the first roller pay a 1x scratch fine and everybody discarded that card. Repeat for 2x, 3x and 4x" and took that to mean they started off on a variant, then they went back to the standard rule. I just didn't take the "bigger pot" part as being relative to this variant rule.

The rule is the same for both Fineni and ATB - each person holding a scratched horse pays the multiple for that horse. So every game always starts with exactly the same 40x in the pot to begin with.

@WedgeRock and I both have the Derby Dash, which doesn't even have betting rules (or a scratch section), so that also confused me where the starting rule of having the roller pay vs the discard paying came from. It'd seem like that penalizes the rollers if they're forced to pay regardless of what cards they're holding, which means to make it fair you'd have to play enough times to rotate the rolling so everyone had to pay. But I guess that starting rule didn't last long anyway.

Don't mind me, I'm easily confused these days.

@WedgeRock, did you find a different set of rules from the Fineni/ATB that had you start that way or was it just something you came up with before adjusting?

 

[Darson]

@WedgeRock and I both have the Derby Dash, which doesn't even have betting rules (or a scratch section), so that also confused me where the starting rule of having the roller pay vs the discard paying came from. It'd seem like that penalizes the rollers if they're forced to pay regardless of what cards they're holding, which means to make it fair you'd have to play enough times to rotate the rolling so everyone had to pay. But I guess that starting rule didn't last long anyway.

Ah that makes sense. I suspect the ATB is the original gambling game and Fineni is a copy although I don't have hard data to substantiate this.

Here's a PDF to some game rules: https://www.fgbradleys.com/rules/Horse Race Game.pdf

Interestingly, this adds a rule in the scratch phase: "If you shake the number of a horse that is already scratched, you pay the amount on that horse's line, and pass the dice to the next player." I don't think this rule is in the original and will likely increase the starting pot from the fixed 40x.

Another link to the standard rule set: https://thepoolshoppe.ca/product/games-room/horse-racing-game-instructions/

Here's yet another rule set where the deck is reduced to limit the number of horses a person has, there is no penalty in the scratch phase other than a payment if you lose all your cards! https://ourpastimes.com/horse-race-game-rules-5900037.html

 

[WedgeRock]

Two #5 horses, no #11.

#7 jockey has a broken knee.

EDIT: Amazon says they have great customer service and replace missing horses. I sent an email to customer service at the address on the material enclosed. We'll see what happens.

Horse #11 expected to arrive in the stable today.

 

[WedgeRock]

@WedgeRock, did you find a different set of rules from the Fineni/ATB that had you start that way or was it just something you came up with before adjusting?

We were beta testing different rules. I proposed options, the group made a choice, then we adjusted.

"If you shake the number of a horse that is already scratched, you pay the amount on that horse's line, and pass the dice to the next player." I don't think this rule is in the original and will likely increase the starting pot from the fixed 40x.

That's how we played it. You could get starting pots about 40x.

Also, because we dealt cards evenly and set extra cards aside. It would be possible to start under 40x (as low as 32x in a five player game where 2 cards are set aside -- if that was the 4x scratch)

 

[CrazyEddie]

Interestingly, this adds a rule in the scratch phase: "If you shake the number of a horse that is already scratched, you pay the amount on that horse's line, and pass the dice to the next player." I don't think this rule is in the original and will likely increase the starting pot from the fixed 40x.

It's also unfair. It means that rolling the dice is not a neutral act; it has a negative expectation, with the negative expectation growing with each subsequent roll. That means whoever rolls the dice first has an unfair advantage over the other rollers, all the early rollers have an advantage over the later rollers, anyone who doesn't roll at all (if there's lots of players) has a big advantage, and anyone who rolls multiple times (if there's only a few players) has a big disadvantage.

I recommend against using this rule.

 

[raynmanas]

so has anyone implemented using an extra hole for the 2 and 12 horses on the fineni boards?

 

[spellholly]

Well this thread popped up and just combined several interests of mine- really cool and look forward to reading up!

 

[warma]

Interestingly, this adds a rule in the scratch phase: "If you shake the number of a horse that is already scratched, you pay the amount on that horse's line, and pass the dice to the next player." I don't think this rule is in the original and will likely increase the starting pot from the fixed 40x.

It's also unfair. It means that rolling the dice is not a neutral act; it has a negative expectation, with the negative expectation growing with each subsequent roll. That means whoever rolls the dice first has an unfair advantage over the other rollers, all the early rollers have an advantage over the later rollers, anyone who doesn't roll at all (if there's lots of players) has a big advantage, and anyone who rolls multiple times (if there's only a few players) has a big disadvantage.

I recommend against using this rule.

See rule #5

The expected payment of the role is one of three possible outcomes:
1. No payment. You scratch a new horse and, having no cards, make no payment.
2. Light payment. You roll the number for a scratched horse and pay just the line for that horse (1x, 2x, or 3x; in the standard Fineni game, 5¢, 10¢, or 15¢).
3. Higher payment. You scratch a new horse and have one or more corresponding cards paid at the new line rate (2x, 3x, or 4x or between 10¢ for one card on line 2 and 80¢ for having all four cards on line 4).

So paying a line payment for a previously scratched horse is worse than paying nothing, but better than outcome #3.

You could actually map out the true EV for each roll.

 

[Darson]

It's not really "unfair" as you roll a scratch and you pay and then pass the roll to the next person. It's no difference between rolling a scratch in the race and rolling a scratch before the race.

Say there are 4 players, then yes the first roller has a 0% chance of rolling a previously scratched horse BUT if any one of the next three players rolls a previously scratched horse (pays and passes the dice) then that first roller has to roll again and now they're the most likely to roll a previously scratched horse.

One could argue that then there are 7 or 8 players, it becomes more likely that some players won't get to participate in the scratch phase but I think we're worrying too much about insignificant amounts.

 

[legonick]

Ah that makes sense. I suspect the ATB is the original gambling game and Fineni is a copy although I don't have hard data to substantiate this.

Here's a PDF to some game rules: https://www.fgbradleys.com/rules/Horse Race Game.pdf

Interestingly, this adds a rule in the scratch phase: "If you shake the number of a horse that is already scratched, you pay the amount on that horse's line, and pass the dice to the next player." I don't think this rule is in the original and will likely increase the starting pot from the fixed 40x.

Another link to the standard rule set: https://thepoolshoppe.ca/product/games-room/horse-racing-game-instructions/

Here's yet another rule set where the deck is reduced to limit the number of horses a person has, there is no penalty in the scratch phase other than a payment if you lose all your cards! https://ourpastimes.com/horse-race-game-rules-5900037.html

Interesting on the limiting number of horses stuff. I have been using some of that, but prefer bigger holdings and chopping it up to keep variance a bit lower. I've been doing 2 suits for heads-up, and 3 suits for 3-handed & 4-handed, and full for 5+. 2-handed == 7 cards each. 3-handed == 7 cards each. 4-handed == 5.25 cards each. 5-handed == 5.6 cards each. And less from there. Maybe the 2 and 3 handed variants are a bit card-heavy. All counts don't include Aces (which I've taken to playing as skips).

I haven't play-tested all these variations, but enjoying what I've played so far!

 

[WedgeRock]

Horse #11 expected to arrive in the stable today.

Welcome home, #11.

 

[LeGold]

Making new bases for the figures.

 

[LeGold]

Done.

 

[WedgeRock]

Does this go in the Mail Showcase thread, or here?

Scratch tags for the Derby Dash version.

Thank you, @TheOffalo!

 

[warma]

Does this go in the Mail Showcase thread, or here?

Scratch tags for the Derby Dash version.

View attachment 899999

x4 through x6? That’s a ton of scratches. What were these originally used for?