Online Poker Cheating? (2 Viewers)

[Jimulacrum]

No incentive for a site to cheat? Because I know you personally and I know your character, I can honestly say that I believe that you honestly believe that. I personally would like to believe that, based on your example of sites “blissfully raking in pots,” I can understand the thought of why would they need to cheat.
One word my friend, “ GREED!” What is plenty for some is never enough for others.

Unless they have house players getting all the good hands (which would be really brazen and obvious), greed should lead them to run a straight-up game, not a rigged game. They might make more rake from a rigged game, by a pretty marginal amount, in the short run. This is true. But in the long run they'd hurt themselves way more than they'd help themselves.

It would be fairly easy to do an informal statistical analysis that shows, for example, that draws come in far more often than they should, or AA/KK and other cooler matchups are much too frequent. Someone on this site already attempted this for Poker Mavens (and came up empty), and if there were real suspicions, I'd expect folks on 2+2 to go at it pretty aggressively. People out there do care about this stuff and know how to analyze it.

As soon as someone demonstrates that something's off about a site, players will start disappearing. Even if it's a small number of players, it won't take much to offset that marginal increase in rake caused by more "action hands." In reality, it would probably be a very large number of players, since no one wants to play at a site that can't be trusted.

Not saying it couldn't happen, but it would be very surprising to see someone who invested the time and resources to build a poker site and player base piss it away on such a slim opportunity for short-term profit. Someone that stupid is unlikely to have gotten the site up and running in the first place.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Coolers hurt the rake long term too! The house makes more money from 8 people seeing flops all night long. If the game breaks early because of a bunch of coolers then the house isn’t making money at all. The programmed coolers is so tin foil hat crazy it is laughable.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Coolers hurt the rake long term too! The house makes more money from 8 people seeing flops all night long. If the game breaks early because of a bunch of coolers then the house isn’t making money at all. The programmed coolers is so tin foil hat crazy it is laughable.

I didn't even think of this, but yes, this is also a logical concern.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I only have one question......were the cheaters of Cuban descent, and seated in seats 1 and 6?

 

[erdried]

I play in many online groups and I'm having a very unique experience in one of the Poker Mavens groups. I am quitting after enough red flags. I looked at the code for this particular cheat, https://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/s...acked-to-allow-superusing-for-shady-operators, but didn't find it. Since this one, have any other mods been discovered that I can look for in the javascript?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I play in many online groups and I'm having a very unique experience in one of the Poker Mavens groups. I am quitting after enough red flags. I looked at the code for this particular cheat, https://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/s...acked-to-allow-superusing-for-shady-operators, but didn't find it. Since this one, have any other mods been discovered that I can look for in the javascript?

Poker Mavens is secure only if the host server is secure. If they're not running it encrypted, its my understanding that they can be looking at ingoing and outgoing information. I'm not an expert but remember reading this somewhere. Might just be complete hand histories but unsure.

I'm not a tinfoil-hatter and I don't know what your red flags are, but its possible when its an unregulated gambling server. What are your "red flags"?

 

[LotsOfChips]

very unique experience in one of the Poker Mavens groups

Care to elaborate...?

Variance is not unique, but after getting coolered a few times, it's easy to blame the game/software for repeated bad beats. Online plays very different than live, IME, and lots of players will chase (and catch) seemingly "miracle" draws with very questionable hands, and will play to the river with garbage, and beat your bluffs. That's poker, not necessarily compromised software.

I looked at the code for this particular cheat, https://pokerfraudalert.com/forum/s...acked-to-allow-superusing-for-shady-operators, but didn't find it.

Do you mean that you tried to find the code that you could apply to Poker mavens (PM) server, or that you searched the PM server in question and it didn't have it installed?

That particular exploit reportedly was patched in an updated PM version several years ago. But any shady operator in any game (online, live, home, underground) can find ways to scam, so if you don't know or trust the host in any game, you should use caution, or avoid the game.

Might just be complete hand histories

PM does file hand histories in a text file, but they don't show any data until the hand is finished (at least in v6). So the operator wouldn't be able to access info in real time unless they hack the system.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

PM does file hand histories in a text file, but they don't show any data until the hand is finished (at least in v6). So the operator wouldn't be able to access info in real time unless they hack the system.

It creates a text file afterwards, but there are vulnerabilities if you're running it as the host server without using encryption, right? My point is that you're not "hacking" anything if your computer is the one acting as a server, sending and receiving packets to all players.

I'm not giving a how-to here, just saying that its more possible than the classic "Pokerstars drives action so they can take my $10" complaints lol.

 

[LotsOfChips]

My point is that you're not "hacking" anything if your computer is the one acting as a server, sending and receiving packets to all players.

Well yes, you would still have to "hack" it, as PM doesn't show everyone's live cards on a screen or anything like that. If you use a packet sniffer on an unencrypted data stream (which qualifies as a hack in my mind), and you were technically knowledgeable enough to be able to decipher the data stream to identify individual cards in real time (which would probably require another hack), then yes, an unscrupulous PM host could find ways to read the cards. Just as an unscrupulous host could find ways to mark decks or use cameras or RFID devices to read cards in a live game

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Well yes, you would still have to "hack" it, as PM doesn't show everyone's live cards on a screen or anything like that. If you use a packet sniffer on an unencrypted data stream (which qualifies as a hack in my mind), and you were technically knowledgeable enough to be able to decipher the data stream to identify individual cards in real time (which would probably require another hack), then yes, an unscrupulous PM host could find ways to read the cards. Just as an unscrupulous host could find ways to mark decks or use cameras or RFID devices to read cards in a live game

Okay, so we agree its possible and information is available in real time to the PM host. I don't really want to focus on the semantics of hacking lol, sorry to go down that road.

Commenter mentioned they're worried about Poker Mavens, we both ask what made em worry, but I'm also speaking to a vulnerability in that poker platform.

 

[LotsOfChips]

a vulnerability in that poker platform

It is a vulnerability in ANY platform that uses a server/client configuration. Not just poker apps, and certainly not just PM.

Any honest host would use the default encryption protocols, just as any honest host would not be going to the trouble to hook up a packet sniffer and write code to decipher the packet contents (just as any honest host wouldn't use hidden cameras or RFID scanners or marked cards, and just as any honest player wouldn't learn how to stack decks when they are shuffling so they can use it to cheat their fellow players)..

But reality is that all of the above can (and does) occur. As I said earlier, if you don't know and trust the host (live or online), either use a lot of caution, or avoid the game.

 

[Rakrul]

Poker Mavens is secure only if the host server is secure. If they're not running it encrypted, its my understanding that they can be looking at ingoing and outgoing information. I'm not an expert but remember reading this somewhere. Might just be complete hand histories but unsure.

I'm not a tinfoil-hatter and I don't know what your red flags are, but its possible when its an unregulated gambling server. What are your "red flags"?

Well yes, you would still have to "hack" it, as PM doesn't show everyone's live cards on a screen or anything like that. If you use a packet sniffer on an unencrypted data stream (which qualifies as a hack in my mind), and you were technically knowledgeable enough to be able to decipher the data stream to identify individual cards in real time (which would probably require another hack), then yes, an unscrupulous PM host could find ways to read the cards. Just as an unscrupulous host could find ways to mark decks or use cameras or RFID devices to read cards in a live game

This is not true. It was the first thing I checked. Each card is given a random number each hand, so all the server owner would see is Player A got cards 23, 17, 8 and 41. That won't tell you anything. The salt is changed every hand so you can't tell by looking up e.g. your hand and doing this over time.

The only thing the owner could do is dump the memory and try correlate the data in there with what happens on the screen but this is far from trivial. First of all just finding the memory addresses is tough and then you'll just sit with a bunch of hex numbers.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

This is not true. It was the first thing I checked. Each card is given a random number each hand, so all the server owner would see is Player A got cards 23, 17, 8 and 41. That won't tell you anything. The salt is changed every hand so you can't tell by looking up e.g. your hand and doing this over time.

The only thing the owner could do is dump the memory and try correlate the data in there with what happens on the screen but this is far from trivial. First of all just finding the memory addresses is tough and then you'll just sit with a bunch of hex numbers.

That's comforting! My friends and family play for pennies on mine so I'm not too worried, but for significant sums I'd be more scrupulous.

 

[Pippa]

Online poker have lots interest
Big site never want lose money
I don’t describe name of the site but for me it’s a scammer
Save money and play live poker

 

[LotsOfChips]

Each card is given a random number each hand, so all the server owner would see is Player A got cards 23, 17, 8 and 41

Thanks for bringing that up. I used to know that part about it, but forgot. So using a sniffer would indeed be useless.

A bad actor would have to hack the program itself to show cards IRT, similar to what was done in the linked article. That particular linked exploit was patched several versions ago.

Long and short is PM is very secure. But as with anything, if someone is determined enough and knowledgeable enough, there are ways to scam and exploit most systems. Is this the case with @erdried's experience, or is it just variance messing with him? My bet would be on the latter, but there is always a non-zero chance of the former...

 

[erdried]

Poker Mavens is secure only if the host server is secure. If they're not running it encrypted, its my understanding that they can be looking at ingoing and outgoing information. I'm not an expert but remember reading this somewhere. Might just be complete hand histories but unsure.

I'm not a tinfoil-hatter and I don't know what your red flags are, but its possible when its an unregulated gambling server. What are your "red flags"?

Yea, also not a tin-foil hat wearer so super apprehensive to even let myself consider the possibility. Not to say it isn't a reality that I should be on the look out for, but you know. I average 15k holdem hands a month so its more so when there is enough irregular player tendencies in a private group that I become curious.

The red flags were basically that players who appear to be very amateur in terms of range considerations, bet-sizing, etc., don't end up fitting into a player type in my notes... can't seem to nail them down, other than being soul-readers. I play under my real name while most play under screen names and I've asked the club owner who are some of the players (the ones that concerned me). He wouldn't give names; "guy from Canada and guy from Texas." It's raked by the way, though I get a decent rake back.

Also, I asked why he has hand history and run it twice option disabled for players. He said the software doesn't provide it. In which case, I said of course Mavens has those features! He said he'd ask his technician to look into it. He's older and not too tech-savvy, so I guess he has a "technician" that runs it? After some more curious table action, I asked who his technician is and he wouldn't say. So I said I can't play if I don't know who is running this site. Left down quite a bit and still have friends who play in it.

 

[erdried]

Care to elaborate...?

Variance is not unique, but after getting coolered a few times, it's easy to blame the game/software for repeated bad beats. Online plays very different than live, IME, and lots of players will chase (and catch) seemingly "miracle" draws with very questionable hands, and will play to the river with garbage, and beat your bluffs. That's poker, not necessarily compromised software.


Do you mean that you tried to find the code that you could apply to Poker mavens (PM) server, or that you searched the PM server in question and it didn't have it installed?

That particular exploit reportedly was patched in an updated PM version several years ago. But any shady operator in any game (online, live, home, underground) can find ways to scam, so if you don't know or trust the host in any game, you should use caution, or avoid the game.


PM does file hand histories in a text file, but they don't show any data until the hand is finished (at least in v6). So the operator wouldn't be able to access info in real time unless they hack the system.

Oh right, I do recall reading that they patched that particular exploit.

Also to add, I've had 2 prior instances in private groups where things seemed off to me and it was discovered that there was collusion. This is different, it doesn't seem like collusive behavior.

 

[erdried]

Well yes, you would still have to "hack" it, as PM doesn't show everyone's live cards on a screen or anything like that. If you use a packet sniffer on an unencrypted data stream (which qualifies as a hack in my mind), and you were technically knowledgeable enough to be able to decipher the data stream to identify individual cards in real time (which would probably require another hack), then yes, an unscrupulous PM host could find ways to read the cards. Just as an unscrupulous host could find ways to mark decks or use cameras or RFID devices to read cards in a live game

Is there something within the site's code that I'd be able to see if it's unencrypted?

 

[erdried]

This is not true. It was the first thing I checked. Each card is given a random number each hand, so all the server owner would see is Player A got cards 23, 17, 8 and 41. That won't tell you anything. The salt is changed every hand so you can't tell by looking up e.g. your hand and doing this over time.

The only thing the owner could do is dump the memory and try correlate the data in there with what happens on the screen but this is far from trivial. First of all just finding the memory addresses is tough and then you'll just sit with a bunch of hex numbers.

Oh ok, I see. So it would really need to be a more designed cheat such as the patched one from the article.

 

[demonnic]

Is there something within the site's code that I'd be able to see if it's unencrypted?

if you're going to https://somesite.com it's encrypted traffic, if you're going to http://somesite.com it is not

 

[DirtyTIVA]

I don’t think there needs to be a software exploit for a game to be “rigged.”

Bloomberg had an article a few months ago that is referenced below.

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2024...g-poker-botting-bots-are-inevitable-47007.htm

Basically it suggests there are entire networks of bot players who play up to perfect GTO and are certainly able to communicate cards amongst themselves if seated at the same table.

Casual players get crushed. Pros barely can scrape by. Not too much online sites can do about this because of how much rake they’re collecting from these “players.”

 

[CallingStation614]

Online poker have lots interest
Big site never want lose money
I don’t describe name of the site but for me it’s a scammer
Save money and play live poker

Can we get a group buy for a sign with this poem?

Would go well in my living room.

 

[LotsOfChips]

I don’t think there needs to be a software exploit for a game 7to be “rigged.”

There are lots of ways to scam on online poker, and most don't involve bots. Multiple accounts and colluding with "friends" are two that are common (or at least commonly mentioned). Use of "tools" such as PokerTracker that give a player huge amounts of info that a player not using those "tools" doesn't have might (rightly or wrongly) be considered as giving unfair advantage (and isn't that more or less the definition of "rigged"?).

I think that playing on a Poker Mavens site run by someone you know is probably as safe or safer than playing on P* or other big sites. At least the likelihood of playing against organized gangs seems smaller IMO.

 

[erdried]

In breaking news, I emailed Kent Briggs this morning to ask if he could look at the site's source code on his end and be able to tell if anything was awry. He just responded. Although player collusion cannot be seen, does this alleviate any fear that any cheats like the one in 2020 are running on the site?

 

[johnnycnote]

Assuming they're not sitting in the same room...

Can’t play at the same table from the same external IP. At least on WSOP. My daughter tried while visiting a few years ago and we couldn’t play together

 

[LotsOfChips]

does this alleviate any fear...

TBH, I don't have much fear at all about PM. You stated earlier that you did, but you have never really said why...

 

[drdr]

Can’t play at the same table from the same external IP. At least on WSOP. My daughter tried while visiting a few years ago and we couldn’t play together

Correct. Also checks for if an VPN is active and possibly disguising IP. Many other measures are taken to prevent as much cheating as possible. An online casino's reputation is incredibly important. Once broken they can't survive long after an exodus.

Online cheating exists. But likely at a lower frequency than most expect. The ones I encountered (micro/low stakes) were exploitable, but that was before GTO.

 

[Rakrul]

I don’t think there needs to be a software exploit for a game to be “rigged.”

Bloomberg had an article a few months ago that is referenced below.

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2024...g-poker-botting-bots-are-inevitable-47007.htm

Basically it suggests there are entire networks of bot players who play up to perfect GTO and are certainly able to communicate cards amongst themselves if seated at the same table.

Casual players get crushed. Pros barely can scrape by. Not too much online sites can do about this because of how much rake they’re collecting from these “players.”

It would mean that the bot made code to play on PMavens which is possible, but I wouldn't think there's enough traffic/money for them to bother but who knows. It wasn't on their list last time I checked but I can't remember where I saw the list.

 

[Munchies11]

Online poker have lots interest
Big site never want lose money
I don’t describe name of the site but for me it’s a scammer
Save money and play live poker

Amen to this !