SHUFFLE TECH News (3 Viewers)

[StatTracker]

These shufflers have been around for while... around a decade now I think... kinda.... sort of.....

They temporarily suspended selling shufflers for a short while back around 2015-ish until they could counter-sue Shuffle Master (yea, this happened) for filing frivolous lawsuits against them (and a couple others)... for patent infringement.

In the end Shuffle Master lost the legal battle, & ended up paying millions in a settlement. But, they were actually successful in what they wanted to actually accomplish. That being keeping competition out of the market. (ShuffleTech had partnered with a couple other outfits to develop a casino quality version to compete with Shuffle Master) ShuffleTech dropped that development & just stuck with the home market.

In the end, ShuffleTech & it's shuffler is a really small-time outfit. Probably even a one-man show from the sounds of things. & sure, the customer service record isn't stellar. But, for a single deck fully automatic shuffler that the average home game user can afford, it's the only game in town.

The 5 grand a used Shuffle Master DeckMate would cost will buy you 7 brand new ShuffleTechs with flush mount kits.

Great info. Thanks for taking the time to share

IF.... you have 2 decks in play.

There are some people in this world that don't like using/won't play using 2 decks. & I happen to be in the midst of some of 'em.

& I'm likely not alone in that camp.

Curious, why don't you like or won't use two decks?

 

[tabletalker7]

Curious, why don't you like or won't use two decks?

He does. He was talking about other people.

 

[StatTracker]

He does. He was talking about other people.

Ohhh, mis-read. Time to go to bed
Although, would like to know why the people he plays with feels this way. Never understood it

 

[tabletalker7]

Ohhh, mis-read. Time to go to bed
Although, would like to know why the people he plays with feels this way. Never understood it

I honestly think it all comes down to shuffling. If I have to be a dealer for a game, I might question why I need a second deck at all times. Card rooms I play in have two decks at the table, but they will switch decks when they change out dealers. Maybe that is it.

 

[Dix]

Well.... if you must know....

Age is something they have in common, but I hesitate to call that a cause. I'm sure there are those who some others have mentioned similarly that are younger.

One is a lady in her 70s who called using two decks "too confusing".

OK, you can all stop snickering... She's one of those "sweetheart old lady" types we all know, that acts like she's everyone's mother. Her husband passed about a decade ago & it's likely that our weekly cash game, the local bingo hall, & the monthly charity tourney we have up here are the only times she gets out to do something. Besides, when she & her son get into a pot head's up, that's entertainment worth the price of admission right there. She's an uber-rock & an easy fold if she's betting & you don't have the nuts. So she always cashes out somewhere near even. If she's ahead more than a few bucks it's because she goaded someone into making a hero call that usually fails (& it's usually her son).

Another is "Oscar the Grouch". Everyone's grumpy uncle. Grouches 'cause he hasn't had a playable hand in a couple orbits, Grouches 'cause he has to fold middle two pair. Grouches 'cause you folded. Grouches 'cause.... oh, you get the idea. Simply hates the idea of having to shuffle cards or pass a deck while there are cards being dealt or a hand in play. Retired lawyer with a lot of cash to throw around & plays like it. Way too loose calling station. I bet $50 into about a $75 pot a couple weeks ago on the turn with top pair & the nut flush draw. He called after his usual grumble.... with 2nd pair & a gutshot.

Back when I had suggested using two decks I mentioned that a tournament in Portland uses two decks per table. He not only grumbled about the two decks, but then said he doesn't play that one because he's "too aggressive to do well down there".

No, it's because you're too loose, you call too often, & the relative skill level of the players down there is 2 or 3 notches higher than up here.... but, I didn't actually say it.

If me buying a shuffler & volunteering to deal the entire game kept either of those two alone happy to keep coming back it would be money well spent.

 

[junkandjunk]

In the 'Shuffle Tech Shuffler' video below where they demo the machine and show the deck after it has been shuffled (starting at 2:00), pay attention to the distribution of the clubs. You'll notice that the deck has 6c7c out front, then you don't see another club until the back half of the deck where you find a few more sequences (TcQc, 4c5c, 8c9c), and that's just from what we can see. You'll also notice the clustering of other suits as he passes through the deck. There are quite a few cards that we can't see as he's just quickly running through the deck though. He seems to think the results are good here and is showing the "randomized" deck that it produced, but someone knowing what to pay attention to could take advantage of this shuffle.

OH MY GOD. 47 seconds in.

56789d are in a row. Although the 9d looks to be after another card. Still pretty clumpy.

Even the worst shufflers i know aren't that clumpy.

 

[tabletalker7]

OH MY GOD. 47 seconds in.

56789d are in a row. Although the 9d looks to be after another card. Still pretty clumpy.

Even the worst shufflers i know aren't that clumpy.

Welcome to the 3 riffle shuffle. It is the standard card room shuffle. Only reason it is a problem is that you knew the order of the cards before the shuffling started. When you know the order of the cards use the 7 button. That gives you two riffles, a strip, 4 more riffles, another strip, and one last riffle (watch the rest of the video to see that one)

 

[junkandjunk]

Welcome to the 3 riffle shuffle. It is the standard card room shuffle. Only reason it is a problem is that you knew the order of the cards before the shuffling started.

For those card rooms without a shuffler, they usually toss in a wash.
But riffle-strip-riffle-riffle-riffle still isn't nearly that bad unless the guy sucks at riffling.

When you know the order of the cards use the 7 button. That gives you two riffles, a strip, 4 more riffles, another strip, and one last riffle (watch the rest of the video to see that one)

The 7 is definitely better but I wasn't expecting the 3 to be nearly that bad.

 

[tabletalker7]

For those card rooms without a shuffler, they usually toss in a wash.

Any card rooms near me only wash when they change dealers (half hour or hour, depending on how many dealers they have). Besides, my experience with my machine is nowhere near that bad.

The 7 is definitely better but I wasn't expecting the 3 to be nearly that bad.

A lot of people who use this machine will use the "7" function periodically (every hour, every half hour, every rotation) to help keep things randomized.

 

[junkandjunk]

Any card rooms near me only wash when they change dealers (half hour or hour, depending on how many dealers they have). Besides, my experience with my machine is nowhere near that bad.

To be fair, this is only from memory of the manual from where I worked. I don't think I've been to a casino that didn't have a Shuffle Master.
Even when I deal home I wash every hand. I'm 100% surprised any professional setting would do RSRRR and call it a day. I do RSRRR after i wash though.

A lot of people who use this machine will use the "7" function periodically (every hour, every half hour, every rotation) to help keep things randomized.

I'm still tempted by one solely because of the price tag (or rather the price tag of a Shuffle Master).
But in another weird way I'm tempted to see what it would take to build one.
$5000USD is definitely out of my budget but a few hundred bucks and some tinkering time might be worth it to see if I can make something better.

 

[Dix]

Even the worst shufflers i know aren't that clumpy.

When you start with a perfectly ordered deck, the simple 3 riffles & a strip isn't enough, even for a human.

Although the 7 riffle option will do a good enough job, I always give a fresh deck a wash first, just because, & then hit it with a 7 riffle.

Can you get a machine that will "randomize" a fresh deck faster? Sure.... Got an extra $5-7 grand burning a hole in your pocket?

When a hand is over I'll fan out the stub & push it & the muck pile together. Just for something of a "semi-wash".

 

[junkandjunk]

When you start with a perfectly ordered deck, the simple 3 riffles & a strip isn't enough, even for a human.

That's why I don't think it's ever enough ever.

When a hand is over I'll fan out the stub & push it & the muck pile together. Just for something of a "semi-wash".

I'm pretty sure this is part of the "book" too. Plus you get to check for boxed cards.
I've always fanned the stub. Even a semi is better than nothing.

 

[junkandjunk]

(Missed my edit time, didn't realize it was 5 minutes)

Can you get a machine that will "randomize" a fresh deck faster? Sure.... Got an extra $5-7 grand burning a hole in your pocket?

I'm actually kind of curious as to what would happen if you put a fresh deck in a Shuffle Master. I'm sure someone here has one. Has anyone tried it?

 

[Dix]

I'm actually kind of curious as to what would happen if you put a fresh deck in a Shuffle Master. I'm sure someone here has one. Has anyone tried it?

It actually doesn't matter what order the deck is in with a ShuffleMaster. Whatever "shuffle" it was going to produce that next time out (at that exact moment) is the shuffle it will produce.

A ShuffleMaster isn't really a "shuffler" as we humans think of it... but rather a "sorter"... Like the Postal Service has for mail, & works pretty much like online poker.

As in, the "shuffle" is actually the result of random number generators & algorithms.

There's a lot going on in a ShuffleMaster, hence the pricetag. And really, for good reason. Mostly, that being security.

First thing it does is read every card to ensure that all 52 unique cards are present. That test passed, it then proceeds to place the cards in a calculated "random" order.

Let the conspiracy theorizing begin.

A few years back I was sitting in the 10 seat at a casino & the subject of online poker came up. One guy across from me stated he wouldn't play online poker (even before "Black Friday") 'cause, "...online poker is so rigged." He went on to rant & rave about how the software was designed to produce way more bad beats & coolers just to increase the table rake.

When he finally finished, I looked over & asked if he knew the difference between online poker & "this thing" (I pointed to the shuffler in the table in front of me)

I left him with the bewildered look on his face for a few seconds before I said, "exactly zero".

OK, sure, at a casino the dealer is going to cut the deck after taking it out of the shuffler. But still, the "shuffle" is produced exactly the same way. & before someone points it out... yea, yea, I know.... Full Tilt was different.

That's why I don't think it's ever enough ever.

If the deck is already at least semi-random (which it's bound to be once it's in play) 3 riffles & a strip is fine.

It's the standard casino hand shuffle. If it's good enough for a casino, it's good enough for me.

 

[BGinGA]

Well, some also use cheap plastic chips and offer 6:5 on blackjack. 'Good enough for a casino' is often lacking, as casino decisions are always in the best interest of the casino.

Not exactly the gold standard for what's actually best practice or what is player +EV.

 

[dimperdoo]

the machines generally run with card recognition off. it still verifies there's 52 cards ~just by a count not card recognition. recognition slows them way down

 

[Dix]

Well, some also use cheap plastic chips and offer 6:5 on blackjack. 'Good enough for a casino' is often lacking, as casino decisions are always in the best interest of the casino.

Not exactly the gold standard for what's actually best practice or what is player +EV.

So when all the "proper" poker players have abandoned the casinos, let me know.

& when that happens my +EV will improve 'cause I'll still be where the bad players are.

Playing against bad players will have way more +EV than any amount of "best shuffling" could ever hope to have.... & you'll find the vast majority of those at the casinos.

the machines generally run with card recognition off. it still verifies there's 52 cards ~just by a count not card recognition. recognition slows them way down

Then that must be a feature in the latest version of it. Not that it's a bad thing.

 

[JoeBGo]

Anyone know if the “new” single deck is still coming out later this year? I’d like to get one, but I don’t want to buy the current model if the “new” one is one the way?

 

[tabletalker7]

Anyone know if the “new” single deck is still coming out later this year? I’d like to get one, but I don’t want to buy the current model if the “new” one is one the way?

We are not going to tell you how many years in a row we have been told "A new model is coming out later this year"

 

[BGinGA]

So when all the "proper" poker players have abandoned the casinos, let me know.

& when that happens my +EV will improve 'cause I'll still be where the bad players are.

Playing against bad players will have way more +EV than any amount of "best shuffling" could ever hope to have.... & you'll find the vast majority of those at the casinos.

You missed the point entirely.

That point being, that 'because that's how casinos do it' is not a very compelling reason to do anything, and certainly not a valid indicator that it's the 'best' way to do something.

 

[GianThaMan]

That point being, that 'because that's how casinos do it' is not a very compelling reason to do anything, and certainly not a valid indicator that it's the 'best' way to do something.

Yeah, just like how Paulson isn't really the best chip and we should all use ceramics. Oh crap Greg, not here, not here!

 

[junkandjunk]

It actually doesn't matter what order the deck is in with a ShuffleMaster. Whatever "shuffle" it was going to produce that next time out (at that exact moment) is the shuffle it will produce.

A ShuffleMaster isn't really a "shuffler" as we humans think of it... but rather a "sorter"... Like the Postal Service has for mail, & works pretty much like online poker.

As in, the "shuffle" is actually the result of random number generators & algorithms.

Still... the first thing I'd do if I bought one is feed it a bunch of fresh decks just to be nosy.

If the deck is already at least semi-random (which it's bound to be once it's in play) 3 riffles & a strip is fine.

It's the standard casino hand shuffle. If it's good enough for a casino, it's good enough for me.

Having observed many of my colleagues I'm surprised it is fine. Some of them were quite clumpy too.

the machines generally run with card recognition off. it still verifies there's 52 cards ~just by a count not card recognition. recognition slows them way down

Granted I've only dealt with modern image recognition so I don't know what's inside these, but I'm actually shocked it shows them down to any noticeable degree.
I'm actually tempted to build a shuffling (or rather sorting) machine with a hardware RNG just to see if I could.
Part of that plan was to put a camera so it could read and verify all the cards were there because adding a camera is like $20.
Obviously the logic behind the camera is the tricky part, but since I'm designing from the ground up I may as well put it in now.

 

[tabletalker7]

Still... the first thing I'd do if I bought one is feed it a bunch of fresh decks just to be nosy.

It's a random number generator. Be nosy. Won't get you anywhere.

Having observed many of my colleagues I'm surprised it is fine. Some of them were quite clumpy too.

That is the exact reason why those of us who have this Shuffle Tech machine have it. We take the worst part of poker for our guests (shuffling) and take it out of their hands. That way they can enjoy the game.

Granted I've only dealt with modern image recognition so I don't know what's inside these, but I'm actually shocked it shows them down to any noticeable degree.
I'm actually tempted to build a shuffling (or rather sorting) machine with a hardware RNG just to see if I could.
Part of that plan was to put a camera so it could read and verify all the cards were there because adding a camera is like $20.
Obviously the logic behind the camera is the tricky part, but since I'm designing from the ground up I may as well put it in now.

Triple check the patent office buddy - that is how they do it, and we all learned from Shuffle Tech just how far ShuffleMaster will go to stop you.

 

[Dix]

You missed the point entirely.

That point being, that 'because that's how casinos do it' is not a very compelling reason to do anything, and certainly not a valid indicator that it's the 'best' way to do something.

I did not miss the point... in the slightest!

How about..... If it's good enough for the vast majority of the poker playing planet.

or... If it's good enough for the WSOP for decades.

But, by all means, if you know of when there was a mass movement afoot to change the standard acceptable shuffle from 3 riffles & a strip to something else please clue me in to when that was, I must have missed it. What year was it when there was a boycott of the WSOP because they refused to riffle the cards more than 3 times?

My point is, I prefer not to sweat the details to the point of trying pick gnat sh*t out of pepper. Life's too short for that crap. I'm just going to live in the real world, imperfect as it is, and move on. There are bigger & better fish to fry than stressing out over whether or not the dealer riffled the cards three times or four.

When it gets to a point of the difference involving more than 2 or 3 zeros to the right of the decimal point, I'll stop futzing with it, call it close enough for redneck work & just get on with having some fun.

Besides, if the dealer only has to riffle 3 times then maybe we can get a few more hands in before that drunken tourist at the table passes out.

 

[Dix]

We are not going to tell you how many years in a row we have been told "A new model is coming out later this year"

Here's a hint..... I can't count that high right now, I need the other hand to hold my beer.

...we all learned from Shuffle Tech just how far ShuffleMaster will go to stop you.

Did we ever....

In the end, it actually cost ShuffleMaster well into nine figures. & I guess they considered that a bargain.

 

[WedgeRock]

First thing it does is read every card to ensure that all 52 unique cards are present. That test passed, it then proceeds to place the cards in a calculated "random" order.

So if I put a 52-card deck into a Shuffle Master, it doesn't matter if it random or sorted, for that hand, it's always going to produce the same resulting order?

I was under the impression that the Shufflemaster kept shuffling until the dealer pressed the button and it finished its current shuffle, then gave you the deck and accepted the new one... That's not how it works?

 

[Dix]

I was under the impression that the Shufflemaster kept shuffling until the dealer pressed the button and it finished its current shuffle, then gave you the deck and accepted the new one... That's not how it works?

The dealer presses the button to open the lid & swap decks, the shuffling/sorting process is done by that point.

As it was explained to me, here's the drill...

(Granted, this was wayyyyy back when they were kind of a new thing.... v1.0 or thereabouts - if that's changed any I have no idea)

Step 1: Deck is placed in receiving tray & button is pushed to close the lid & start the process.
Step 2: Deck integrity verification.
Step 3: The "shuffle" is requested from the RNG
Step 4: Deck is placed in the "shuffled" order
Step 5: Tray with deck is raised to the "ready" position & light indicates to the operator deck is ready for use.

The dealer can then press the button at any time to open the lid & swap decks.

So the key to which "shuffle" you get would depend on the exact timing (likely to the millisecond) step 3 hits the logic board's processor.

Here's a you tube video... skip ahead to about 50 seconds in....

That video is edited so the whole process seems to take less than 10 seconds. But, they're claiming 22 seconds with card recognition (in the 2.0 version from 2014) & that beats the earlier version by half. So the earlier info about running with that turned off doesn't make much sense, as 45-ish seconds would be pretty quick, even for the earlier one. & I don't recall it being able to be turned off in the earlier version.

Also, I've read the latest version has the ability to take a random deck & place it back in order if you like.

EDIT: Found a better video... & indeed, v2 can sort a deck back to in order if the remote screen is used. Also, v1 would also know if cards were missing (or even if there were duplicates), it just couldn't show you exactly which card(s) is(are) missing, you'd just get an error with (I'm assuming) a certain code flashed via the indicator light.

& from seeing this one of v2 in action it appears as though the time savings is done via the verification process now being interlaced with the sorting/shuffling process.... which makes sense.

Take the randomly generated order & simply verify as you're sorting. No need for it to be a separate step.

Although, their own promo video makes a liar out of 'em by 4 seconds.... watch the display... it says 26 just before it swaps back to default.

 

[WedgeRock]

So the key to which "shuffle" you get would depend on the exact timing (likely to the millisecond) step 3 hits the logic board's processor.

Yeah, that's what kinda amazed me... That before Step 3, it didn't matter what order the cards were in (sorted, random or somewhere in between), the result would be the same "random shuffle"...

Thanks for the video links.

 

[JoeBGo]

I’m sure this has been posted? But....does the shuffletech work with bridge size cards? Or only poker size?

 

[allforcharity]

I’m sure this has been posted? But....does the shuffletech work with bridge size cards? Or only poker size?

It works with both, surely?